What's going on with necks?

milliepops said:
for some odd reason it's hard to find big nets with big holes. .
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I'm using the Lincoln three horse haynets. They are my favourite soft nylon cord instead of polypropylene that breaks too easily, as well.


And a tip, replacing the cord with a big 6 inch buggy/pram hook (essentially a huge carabiner) makes life very simple.
 
ycbm said:
I'm using the Lincoln three horse haynets. They are my favourite soft nylon cord instead of polypropylene that breaks too easily, as well.
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thanks :D are they a new thing? I certainly couldn't find anything that big last winter - did an appeal on the forum!
 
I don't know. I've had them for less than a year. They will take 12-15 kg of close packed haylage. I buy them on ebay but lots of places sell them.
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ester said:
Like lots of things it's a matter of balance though, sometimes you have to do things you'd rather not to avoid other health issues.
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I've always had types who live on fresh air. I've never had to resort to doubling up haynets or using ones with the world's smallest holes. There are many ways you can encourage weight loss without infringing negatively on physical/MH.
 
I agree that diagnostics have improved over the years that I have been keeping horses (40+) but I'm afraid that this has been necessary because 'horsemastership' has deteriorated over the same number of years. When I was taught the basics, the needs of the horse were paramount. It seems to me that the needs of the rider/owner have become more important. In general, we stable horses for many more hours per day, with nowhere near enough exercise for such a regime, when they do have access to grazing, it is very often on small pockets of lush grass, so they need restricted access to forage when stabled and for some reason many hobby owners seem to think that the best way to restrict intake of calories is to bed on shavings and use small holed nets of washed hay, instead of feeding straw/chaff or allowing access to a straw bed for nibbling when the hay has run out. All of which can lead to ulcers.
One remedy for the lack of free/ridden exercise is the horse-walker, mind-numbing circles/ovals which do the joints no good, as an alternative to ridden work, which may or may not be in mind-numbing circles, depending on the aptitude of the rider, on an artificial surface, many of which are much deeper than surfaces which horses encounter naturally, so their joints, ligaments and tendons are put under unnatural stress, which leads to all the MSK problems that we see regularly nowadays.

Then there is the desire for the average hobby rider to own a specific breed to show off with, rather than the Heinz 57 types that were much more common back in the day.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
There are other ways to feed a horse fewer calories than relying on small holed nets.
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Yes, of which I am quite aware which I would have thought was obvious but they don't always totally remove the need IMO in some circumstances.

I've done best with unattached floor nets, unfortunately not a route you can do if your horse is shod. (and track systems, and exercise when not broken, would happily feed straw etc etc. )
I too have never double netted or super small holes, but I have seen a section A empty a small holed net in an hour - he got donated one of the floor ones ;)
 
milliepops said:
yes, and also not all horses attack haynets in a violent or frustrated manner, my welsh eats hers the same way whether in a hay bar on the ground or in a small holed net, she delicately selects a mouthful without tugging or awkwardly pulling. i use a small holed net for her because they are the biggest nets I can find, for some odd reason it's hard to find big nets with big holes. TB won't eat hay that's been on the ground so he has multiple big hole nets.
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This for me too! I also feed hay in nets that are lower and hang freely (thus risking other accidents...) but the balance between reasonably free access to forage and too much forage can be very delicate. It has been said here more than a few times that ad lib forage risks considerable problems wrt horse's weight in some cases and particularly where they are not working hard enough yet we are more knowledgeable and fearful about ulcers now. Horses CAN go for several hours without eating (though we are all mildly obsessed with providing never-ending food for them in case they get ulcers) without issue but like many things the horsemanship and nuance needed in horse-keeping are sometimes hard to communicate successfully. It seems likely to me that a tb with it's relatively fragile frame, having perhaps had some falls in training or racing is quite a likely candidate for neck problems though cobs ridden at a lesser intensity with neck problems are harder to explain.

I do think too that domestication and riding cause horses problems and as we seek to be ever more vigilant we strive harder to find those problems and potentially, particularly where we may doubt or question our own riding and training skills. Years ago healthy horses ridden by skilled and knowledgeable riders probably had far lesser problems to start with and those problems didn't impact on their work so much. Nowadays we ask a huge amount of our horses and, sorry to be contentious, I believe without possibly the same underlying skill and understanding of training correctly. That can't help a horse though of course people who are knowledgeable and have integrity will seek answers more quickly than perhaps we did years ago when horses finished their working lives earlier too.
 
I'm afraid I can't see the old days as a heyday for horse welfare, 15 was considered ancient when I got my first pony because they were getting worn out by then, and anything that with hindsight probably had KS or something else was either dismissed as naughty or put down as rest wouldn't fix it.

There's good and bad everywhere but I think access to diagnostics so we can understand why horses struggle or break or "misbehave " is a great step forward.
 
milliepops said:
There's good and bad everywhere but I think access to diagnostics so we can understand why horses struggle or break or "misbehave " is a great step forward.
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I agree with you but I don't think you are remembering the years that I am remembering. I learned to ride in the '60s on hunters and show ponies, which were dual purpose and also worked in the RS. I remember one of the hunters being rehabbed from a SI injury, definitely not just shot. There was a pony mare who suffered with her seasons and was known to rear, so she simply wasn't ridden at the risky time. Some of the ponies were in their late 30s.
 
milliepops said:
I'm afraid I can't see the old days as a heyday for horse welfare, 15 was considered ancient when I got my first pony because they were getting worn out by then, and anything that with hindsight probably had KS or something else was either dismissed as naughty or put down as rest wouldn't fix it.

There's good and bad everywhere but I think access to diagnostics so we can understand why horses struggle or break or "misbehave " is a great step forward.
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I both agree and disagree that modern diagnosis is a good thing. It's true that 40+ years ago, any horse over eight began to lose value because it was aged.

On the bad side in the old days unsound horses were bullied into agreeing to work. The lucky ones were shot.

On the good side, horses weren't put through endless diagnosis. If 3/6/12 months of Dr Green didn't work, and if they couldn't/wouldn't work, they were shot.

And against modern diagnosis when insurance linked, horses were given time to come right instead of being limited to the 12 month ticking time bomb of insurance.

Also against modern diagnosis, I'm pretty sure I can't be alone that I have given up keeping companion ponies because of the weight of expectation that I will spend thousands of pounds on trying to find out what is wrong with them if they get ill. One or two ponies no longer have a home because I've given up keeping them.
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I still think its useful to have a diagnosis before dr Green, otherwise you won't know what the problem was, how its healing and whether its likely to cause future problems.
I guess we're all posting from the pov of our own experiences.

My old skool horsey mentor was very old fashioned (retirement age when I was in school) it was dr green every time but some horses reinjured multiple times or never quite came right. when an actual diagnosis and bit of treatment might have made the difference between wasted years and eventual pts vs a comfortable existence ?

Its not all or nothing, you can always choose. having the options available these days is, to me, nothing but a benefit.
 
milliepops said:
Thats a bit strange, not sure I understand the issue with companions? my companion will be pts if she becomes unwell in any serious sense. Who is expecting a bit financial input?
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Your companions, I think, are either old or already broken? It's different with fit young companions, there is, or I certainly feel, a weight of expectation that I will spend significant amounts of money diagnosing and treating potential issues rather than PTS. I've chosen to give up keeping young healthy companions to avoid the issue.
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Hmm fair enough. I guess I personally couldn't imagine having a companion horse that wasn't either retired (therefore not much pressure to fix) too young to break in yet (but intending to do so incentive there to want to fix).
cos to me the definition of companion is not ridden. So you're right its not something I've encountered as a problem ?
 
ycbm said:
Your companions, I think, are either old or already broken? It's different with fit young companions, there is, or I certainly feel, a weight of expectation that I will spend significant amounts of money diagnosing and treating potential issues rather than PTS. I've chosen to give up keeping young healthy companions to avoid the issue.
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I've had several fit young companions that have never made it as riding horses and have found they needed very little spending on them as they didn't get ill.
 
paddy555 said:
I've had several fit young companions that have never made it as riding horses and have found they needed very little spending on them as they didn't get ill.
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What would you have done if they had and if they had been fit to work? Did you have a maximum you would spend on them?
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ycbm said:
What would you have done if they had and if they had been fit to work? Did you have a maximum you would spend on them?
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it was irrelevant whether they would have been fit to work or not. ( I was pretty sure they were going to be unrideable mainly because others had already tried and done too much damage)

There was no max and never has been for any of my horses. If there is a best treatment then they all get it.
They were (and are) treated as all the others. If they had needed treatment they would have got it dependent on what they could cope with eg could they cope with confinement, colic surgery etc
 
If interested you should follow the wild horses groups on fb... so much to learn from wild horses. Some of them suffer such horrific fighting, accidental, birth and attack from humans/coyotes type injuries and whilst some do perish I am continually amazed by how many actually survive and thrive. Horse healing of tissue is remarkable. Try also Prince fluffy Kareem whose tireless work saves so many lives with so little and all of them are not confined. Personally I think in the UK we are too scared to see suffering, or accept death in the equine community. Before the dreaded “I’ve tried everything” test is passed. We’d rather shut it all away in a box and hope for the best. It’s not healthy - these horses need each other through the worst of life’s curveballs. That’s the responsibility we bear. There’s always another if you can afford it and even so if not.
I’m definitely not trying to downplay research because it is all valuable as everyone has pointed out in the beginning, so much has come to light through funding for such investigations but there’s got to be a line... at which point we progress?
 
I'm surprised at your statement about endless diagnostics ycbm, that is not something I observe or that generates particular suffering to the horse.

I do get a bit sad at seeing things described as 'the diagnosis of the day' like it is a bad thing, or that it isn't really true because now lots of horses have it.
 
I will always remember the livery yard owner, a guy in his 60s, who told me his yard didn't have winter turnout, and then launched into a tirade, saying, "All these women... They're too soft and don't really ride, and all they want is turnout, turnout, turnout. Back in my day, horses worked hard and didn't need turnout. When you put him back in his stable, that horse wouldn't want to go out!" Lovely. Needless to say, my horse did not end up at that yard.

There's a lot of crap riding and management now. There was a lot of crap riding and management riding twenty or thirty years ago (like the lesson where 10-year old beginner me could not quite get the school horse to do a turn on the forehand, and the instructor came over with steam coming out of her ears, crop in hand, grabbed the bridle, and whipped his ass around in a circle... great modeling of horsemanship for us wee kids? I think not... although I was traumatized and learned what kind of horsewoman I didn't want to be).

I've read Black Beauty. There was a lot of crap riding and management 200 years ago.

I started riding as a kid in the late '80s, early '90s, and even in these last three decades, I would say there has been a noticeable turn towards medical diagnostics, and horses who would have once been described as "lazy" or "naughty" are now diagnosed with kissing spines, ulcers, PSSM, neck arthritis, etc. etc. The technology has developed to enable better diagnostics, and I think there is more awareness that "naughty" behaviour might have a medical cause, so people quite rightly want to investigate and rule it out before they attempt to train it out.
 
Randomly the subject of necks came up when I was talking about TBs with my trimmer this morning. She brought up the C6-7 malformation also mentioned on this thread.

She said the same thing had happened in a brees of dairy cattle (freisans or holsteins she thinks) and they managed to breed it out within 10yrs. Apparently there is a problem getting TB breeders to admit theres an issue let alone address it.

I've not source checked or researched any of what I've posted, was happy to take it at face value and thought it was coincidental timing with this thread
 
ycbm said:
I both agree and disagree that modern diagnosis is a good thing. It's true that 40+ years ago, any horse over eight began to lose value because it was aged.

On the bad side in the old days unsound horses were bullied into agreeing to work. The lucky ones were shot./

On the good side, horses weren't put through endless diagnosis. If 3/6/12 months of Dr Green didn't work, and if they couldn't/wouldn't work, they were shot.

And against modern diagnosis when insurance linked, horses were given time to come right instead of being limited to the 12 month ticking time bomb of insurance.

Also against modern diagnosis, I'm pretty sure I can't be alone that I have given up keeping companion ponies because of the weight of expectation that I will spend thousands of pounds on trying to find out what is wrong with them if they get ill. One or two ponies no longer have a home because I've given up keeping them.
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I don't understand your point about companions. But then I make my own decisions about my animals and the way I keep them, others can think what they like, it makes no difference to me.
 
TPO said:
Randomly the subject of necks came up when I was talking about TBs with my trimmer this morning. She brought up the C6-7 malformation also mentioned on this thread.

She said the same thing had happened in a brees of dairy cattle (freisans or holsteins she thinks) and they managed to breed it out within 10yrs. Apparently there is a problem getting TB breeders to admit theres an issue let alone address it.

I've not source checked or researched any of what I've posted, was happy to take it at face value and thought it was coincidental timing with this thread
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So maybe that needs to be something that is checked when grading stallions. Like the PSSM blood test they do on new forest ponies now?
 
I looked this up for a different thread but thought that this specific section was relevant to this thread.

http://www.waho.org/genetic-disorders-in-arabian-horses-current-research-projects/

'4. OCCIPITO-ATLANTO-AXIAL MALFORMATION (OAAM).

Occipitoatlantoaxial malformation (OAAM) is a developmental defect that results in the compression of the upper cervical cord and subsequent neurological damage. OAAM is presumed to be inherited as an autosomal recessive defect in Arabian horses, but different mutations appear to be involved. One such variant has been identified by researchers at the School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis.

OAAM is a rare condition where the first cervical vertebra (Atlas) resembles the base of the skull (occiput) and the second cervical vertebra (Axis) resembles the atlas. In OAAM-affected foals, there is an abnormal fusion of the atlas to the base of the skull, and of the axis to the atlas. This malformation causes compression of the upper spinal cord, leading to neurological damage. Although rare, it has been recorded in Arabian horses as well as other horse breeds and a variety of other domesticated animals.

Symptoms range from mild incoordination and weakness of the limbs, to paralysis of both front and hind legs. Affected individuals demonstrate abnormal head and neck carriage with neck extended, reluctance to move the neck, or signs of neck twisting. Movement of the head and neck can also produce a clicking sound. Some affected foals cannot stand to nurse, in others the symptoms may not be seen for several weeks. This is the only cervical spinal cord disorder seen in horses less than 1 month of age. X-rays or necropsy can diagnose the condition.

Whilst research into OAAM has been limited, a test for one form of OAAM (OAAM1) has been developed. In 2017 research conducted by M.H. Bordbari, Cecilia Penedo, Monica Aleman et al identified a large deletion in the homeobox gene cluster (HOXD3), which was associated with OAAM in a single individual. From this a genetic test for this specific autosomal recessive mutation has been created and is available to the public through UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Laboratory. They have further suggested that a wide variety of skeletal malformations diagnosed as OAAM are likely caused by other mutations. They are currently working to identify these mutations and their association with OAAM in Arabian horses.

Further research is currently being undertaken by the Finno Laboratory, a branch of UC Davis. Owners who suspect their foal may be affected by OAAM are encouraged to contact the laboratory to help with their research. Alternatively, any breeder with an affected foal should contact their own Registering Authority, Breed Society or nearest Veterinary College to find out if there are any research projects known of in their region.

For further information see:

https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/labs/finno-laboratory/occipitoatlantoaxial-malformation-oaam

Since this particular variant of OAAM has been identified an autosomal recessive disease, matings between two clear animals as well as matings between a clear and a carrier animal will never produce an affected animal.'
 
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