What's happening on Dartmoor?

[paddy555]

Last I heard in rewilding circles, goats were recommended for dealing with gorse but I presume adding more animals is the last thing on NE's mind.

I live on Dartmoor. The prospect of goats anywhere fills me with horror. Beyond horror. I kept goats so I am well aware of their habits.
Give a goat some lovely gorse and I can 101% guarantee that it will eat the whole of Dartmoor before it will look at the gorse.

I do find your comment worrying (not you personally) but if rewilding circles think goats are recommended for dealing with gorse. This makes rewilding circles even more scary that NE.

 

[paddy555]

All the issues with speeding traffic and tourists is the same in the New Forest. There definitely seems to be a problem with the quality of ponies from the moor, or they’d be selling for more than £1. Unless the offspring has a fair chance at a useful/happy life what’s the point of breeding them? Just for the tourists? I’m not sure that’s any better for the ponies than what NE is proposing.

my comment on the traffic was simply a reply to post 51.

I'm not sure they are selling for £1. I detailed the point of breeding them. Yes for the tourists. Tourists come to Dartmoor to see the ponies. The park emblem is a pony. I would point out that those of us who actually live here also like to see the ponies. NE simply wants to reduce livestock numbers. AFAIK they are not concerned with quality of animals.
As for what's better for the ponies I would suggest that the freedom they have to live a natural life is possibly better than the restrictions placed on some equines.

 

[paddy555]

Thank you for sharing, very interesting and well-explained. However, he does do the same thing that the NE do - saying that there is evidence that the problem on the moor is ___ without providing a reference.

not sure what you mean. Anton is giving his opinion based on his view of hill farming on the moor.

 

[Burnttoast]

I live on Dartmoor. The prospect of goats anywhere fills me with horror. Beyond horror. I kept goats so I am well aware of their habits.
Give a goat some lovely gorse and I can 101% guarantee that it will eat the whole of Dartmoor before it will look at the gorse.

I do find your comment worrying (not you personally) but if rewilding circles think goats are recommended for dealing with gorse. This makes rewilding circles even more scary that NE.

I've never heard of rewilding people suggesting goats. The point of large herbivores in rewilding is to act as proxies for their wild ancestors, which means cattle and ponies (alongside deer). Sheep and goats as I understand it are to be avoided.

 

[paddy555]

I've never heard of rewilding people suggesting goats. The point of large herbivores in rewilding is to act as proxies for their wild ancestors, which means cattle and ponies (alongside deer). Sheep and goats as I understand it are to be avoided.

how do you deal with the gorse with rewilding

 

[follysienna]

I don't think they've sold for £1 for quite a while now. At Chagford last Autumn, the dinky miniature types were making a lot more money, often well into the hundreds, than the 12.2hh types. There was the odd plain bay colt which went for not much more than a Chinese takeaway, but the majority made good money and went for more than some colts in the online Beaulieu Rd sales.

 

[Burnttoast]

how do you deal with the gorse with rewilding

Not sure why you're asking me but I suppose depending on the project emphasis you wait for tree regrowth to shade it out or you mow it. Some rewilders are quite happy to be interventionist if needed. Given that browsing by animals clearly doesn't control it sufficiently one of those is presumably the only option. Or in the case of semi-managed environments maybe farmers could return to the old ways (not that long abandoned) and use it as fodder and fuel. Wonder if there's a market for gorse firestarters/brickettes.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Exmoors will eat gorse.

 

[paddy555]

Not sure why you're asking me but I suppose depending on the project emphasis you wait for tree regrowth to shade it out or you mow it. Some rewilders are quite happy to be interventionist if needed. Given that browsing by animals clearly doesn't control it sufficiently one of those is presumably the only option. Or in the case of semi-managed environments maybe farmers could return to the old ways (not that long abandoned) and use it as fodder and fuel. Wonder if there's a market for gorse firestarters/brickettes.

sorry, you were talking about rewilding so I thought you may know.

 

[Burnttoast]

sorry, you were talking about rewilding so I thought you may know.

None of the projects I have decent information on or visit regularly have issues with gorse because of location/soil types/former land use. I'm interested but not a professional in the field, so I haven't given that particular issue much thought.

 

[planete]

Controlled burning is used to control gorse here.

 

[Spotherisk]

Increased swaling (controlled burns) would help. Some years ago Dartmoor had a lot of arson fires, I remember the wringing of hands when come areas were burnt, but it always comes back with fresh growth.

 

[Gloi]

Exmoors will eat gorse.

My old Icelandic loved gorse.

 

[Caol Ila]

Fin eats gorse!

 

[catkin]

Exmoors will eat gorse.

Most ponies will eat gorse.
It is usually good for equines, used to be given to racehorses and hunters, probably still is.

The problem on parts of Dartmoor is that the gorse has been left under-grazed

 

[paddy555]

horses do eat gorse but a limited number of mouthfuls.The problem is that areas of burning are restricted by NE to very small areas and the gorse has taken over.
There are acres of it. Way beyond any pony or horse. The trunks of the old and now very well established gorse are the size of a medium thigh. A pony has no chance and this is now not nice new sweet gorse shoot.
It causes considerable erosion as often only one tiny track through it that every cow, sheep, pony, walker, rider and the hunt use. So that track just becomes a deep, muddy and eroded mess. No gorse and people and animals would fan out and leave little trace.

sort the gorse, sort the bracken and you have a lot more grazing and a lot less fire risk.

 

[Sanversera]

regarding hill farmng. I have a relative with a small hill farm in a national park. his sheep have access to moorland/common grazing. he has lived on gov subsidies all his life. the farm in itself is non viable. I know of many many othr farmers who also couldnt survive without subsidy. I ve always amintined that this is wrong. why should the tax payer supplement his life style, he loves his work and where he lives but if he was a bloke on a council estate living off the dole everyone would up in arms. he produces a few sheep a year and a bit of beef. the world can do without both. tbh im all for rewilding get rid of the money draining farmers and farms, it isnt as if theres public access to his land just a normal footpath through it. i dont eat lamb but used too and find the new zealand lamb to be chaeper and tender. i dont see why we should all have to contribute to a few peoples life styles without 100 % recreational acess to their fields for us to enjoy too. yet this doesnt happen. get rid of them re wild or let the land be public open space.

 

[Sanversera]

Do farmers make more from subsidies than agriculture? - Full Fact

On average most farms in the UK make more from subsidies than they do from agriculture, but this varies depending on the size and type of the farm.

fullfact.org

a bit out of date now but it gives the general gist.

 

[Clodagh]

Backtoblack if the land was just left to rewild how accessible do you think it would be? Are you envisaging nice grass and wildflowers?

 

[Goldenstar]

Of course it won’t be grass and wildflowers it wold be woodland .
Dartmoor was forest and could return to forest with a little kickstart .

 

[ycbm]

Do farmers make more from subsidies than agriculture? - Full Fact

On average most farms in the UK make more from subsidies than they do from agriculture, but this varies depending on the size and type of the farm.

fullfact.org

a bit out of date now but it gives the general gist.

VERY out of date, from when we were still in the EU.
.

 

[Goldenstar]

The tax payer is subsiding agriculture to an huge degree .

 

[paddy555]

i dont see why we should all have to contribute to a few peoples life styles without 100 % recreational acess to their fields for us to enjoy too. yet this doesnt happen. get rid of them re wild or let the land be public open space.

not quite sure you have thought this through.
If we give the public 100% access to the farmer's land then where does he put his animals. If we have the public wandering amongst the cattle there will be a lot more deaths. If we have dogs running through sheep fields then we will have a welfare issue of dogs chasing and killing sheep.
So we re wild. The farmer owns the land. We cannot do anything about that.
Someone has to manage the re wilding. Someone creates the meadows and wild flowers. So we have to pay a manager. The farmer perhaps? After all it is his land. So we are back to paying the farmer yet he is producing nothing ( ie food for the population) in return.

 

[Sanversera]

Backtoblack if the land was just left to rewild how accessible do you think it would be? Are you envisaging nice grass and wildflowers?

no im not, it will revert to whatever it would be without farming there probably scrub land tat the begining with brambles etc then trees will start to grow and eventually forests.

 

[Sanversera]

not quite sure you have thought this through.
If we give the public 100% access to the farmer's land then where does he put his animals. If we have the public wandering amongst the cattle there will be a lot more deaths. If we have dogs running through sheep fields then we will have a welfare issue of dogs chasing and killing sheep.
So we re wild. The farmer owns the land. We cannot do anything about that.
Someone has to manage the re wilding. Someone creates the meadows and wild flowers. So we have to pay a manager. The farmer perhaps? After all it is his land. So we are back to paying the farmer yet he is producing nothing ( ie food for the population) in return.

if the farm is self funding like any other viable business then no public acess except on FP and BW. if the tax payer is subsidising the farmer them public access shpould be allowed imo. if that means he/she cant farm then let them go bust and takie the ground fr rewilding or public parkland .

 

[twiggy2]

Why are they really doing this? Because a large slice of urban society want to pretend that they’re going to save the world by rewilding the hills. They want to continue to fly in planes, shop in concrete and steel supermarkets, and have every consumer luxury….but it’ll all be OK because they read a trendy book about rewilding/tree planting/bog rewetting.

I love this, so bloody accurate

Controlled burning is used to control gorse here.

Increased swaling (controlled burns) would help. Some years ago Dartmoor had a lot of arson fires, I remember the wringing of hands when come areas were burnt, but it always comes back with fresh growth.

They are trying to massively limit or stop burning as part of rewilding, we will be back to wild fires that are out of control in no time

regarding hill farmng. I have a relative with a small hill farm in a national park. his sheep have access to moorland/common grazing. he has lived on gov subsidies all his life. the farm in itself is non viable. I know of many many othr farmers who also couldnt survive without subsidy. I ve always amintined that this is wrong. why should the tax payer supplement his life style, he loves his work and where he lives but if he was a bloke on a council estate living off the dole everyone would up in arms. he produces a few sheep a year and a bit of beef. the world can do without both. tbh im all for rewilding get rid of the money draining farmers and farms, it isnt as if theres public access to his land just a normal footpath through it. i dont eat lamb but used too and find the new zealand lamb to be chaeper and tender. i dont see why we should all have to contribute to a few peoples life styles without 100 % recreational acess to their fields for us to enjoy too. yet this doesnt happen. get rid of them re wild or let the land be public open space.

Many farmers do have their incomes bumped up by payments from government your right, in return they manage the land under restrictions out upon them, it also subsidises the meat that goes on the plate.
The UK can produce so much of the food that goes in our plates and that makes us a much stronger and independent country, relying on other countries to feed us is foolish, it gives them a degree of control over the UK.
We also cannot control the welfare of animals coming from abroad or the chemical and drug usage that goes into and onto those animals, then you have the environmental issues with food bought across the world in frozen or chiller containers.
The farming industry is also a big employer in the UK meaning more people paying tax.
Its funny that rewilding will mean somewhere along the lines that grazing animals are introduced after removing, let me see, grazing animals!
In our area our hill sheep are here mostly to reduce tick numbers to stop the tick wiping out ground nesting birds populations, mostly the grouse, 2 or 3 brace a year are shot by the owner over 17000 acres in return for 600 sheep being kept a year I would say that's a very fair exchange.
Without the land being grazed by sheep there would be more deer (as an aside nature scot want deer almost eradicated) adding to the tick population and any open ground would no longer be open ground, we have a huge variety of birds, mammals and invertebrates here and we also have sheep, trees, gorse, bracken, Heather and a huge variety of plants and grasses, bogs, peat land etc etc.
The key is not to allow any one species to take over and not to allow over stocking.
As someone else has mentioned once the scrub grows you won't be able to access the land anyway and up here you can go anywhere but people don't as a general rule in this part of Scotland, partly because its so wild and isolated but also because of the Lyme risk due to high tick population.
The government would have to start managing land again at some point as all this space would become non productive as our population continues to rise, getting the land back to being productive would take years and cost far more that the relatively small amount paid to farmers to keep land productive.
Also do people realise that just now large areas of land are being purchased by the wealthy in Scotland and those people are getting richer by having trees planted and all large mammals fenced out, how is that rewilding or better for the public purse?

 

[twiggy2]

no im not, it will revert to whatever it would be without farming there probably scrub land tat the begining with brambles etc then trees will start to grow and eventually forests.

Trees won't grow through established scrub, they need sun to grow, how are the seeds going to get there in the first place?

 

[Goldenstar]

Trees won't grow through established scrub, they need sun to grow, how are the seeds going to get there in the first place?

You manage it in the first instance this can be done in fended areas but once forest starts to get hold it’s able to substantially look after itself there’s no need for it be an all or nothing thing, peatlands also need caring for and retaining as they are fantastic carbon sumps .
Two that are interesting websites to look at are moorsforthefuture and mossy.earth

 

[catkin]

With regard to commoning rights - think VERY carefully about what you wish for....

Yes, the system is in a bit of a mess. Yes, thought needs to go into where things go from here.
But those commoning rights and their place in a local community's culture are very old indeed, hundreds of years old at least.

 

[Goldenstar]

Change is needEd for sure and places like Dartmoor are good places to start .