Whats people's thoughts of the Monty Roberts methods then

[tess1]

pferdsein.de If you get it on internet explorer right click on your mouse and it will offer a translation button.Not perfect but o.k Marlitt is not uncritical of IH.She doesn't actually name them but makes it plain who she is referring to and says they are ruthless in their application of psychological pressure.

Thank you. I think me and Marlitt will get on just fine.

 

[neelie OAP]

I really don't think that only people who agree with MR's methods are 'allowed' to post. In the past there have been posts that appear to be purely provocative and abusive, and the poster has subsequently been barred. Lively debate has always been encouraged and enjoyed by all.

Agreed, I say if it works for you then go for it, if it doesn't suit, don't knock it because for someone else it might be great, keeping an open mind is far the best imo as there is always something to learn with horses, they are all individuals so are we ,

 

[Natch]

ps. to you new IHDG joiners, it is a forum allied to IH not an open forum such as this. Kelly does not tolerate disrespect of MR. I was threatened with a ban on a CT forum for being challenging once. I decided to leave in the end cos it was bloomin hard work cos almost all they did was moan about Monty and IH. I hope they've moved forward to more constructive topics.

As a member of the IHDG, I can assure you that it's NOT true that only those in agreement with IH can join! The whole point of IH is to be open minded, and open to learning. There are plenty of discussions with people of all sorts of backgrounds and ethical view points. What isn't tolerated by the moderators is rudeness and disrespectful or slanderous comments -which I think is common sense on ANY forum!

To all those awaiting confirmation of their new membership on IHDG - I look forward to meeting you all there!

Just to make this very clear - I merely wish to have an open and honest discussion to clarify things. I have managed to get by on HHO without so much as a smacked wrist in 5 years, so I hope to be able to do the same with Kelly, whether on IHDG or HHO. I hope not to be censored nor do I want to feel that I am in danger of being banned if I politely disagree with something that is said.

If anyone who isn't pending approval (I am sure that is just because people aren't glued to their computers 24/7 and that I will receive approval in due course) is on there, please could they link Kelly to the thread with TFC's answer on it; she is welcome to come to HHO to directly questions without fear of being banned for advertising. I hope she will see this and pop back on if we all promise to play nicely

 

[xxMozlarxx]

I would like to invite anyone to come and meet my horse and see the use of the dually first hand, both for it's necessity and non punitive effectiveness
and I'm not a MR or KM fan, I take what I like and leave the rest...

 

[lizzie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qryz0EfOwA4&feature=youtu.be

See this link re the starting stall blanket........

 

[1stclassalan]

I've just had a rough trawl through the preceding posts and not surprised to find the usual cliquey pros and cons you find in every feedroom!

I go back to the day when many folk thought that breaking a horse meant just that and indeed, I spent most of my youth trying to be a cowboy - or my idea of one and ended up quite disappointed that I couldn't find a true bucking bronco in my part of wildest west Middlesex.

Most of the horses and ponies I worked were suffering from various degrees of mistreatment and were in consequence either dithering plods or hyped nutters with a killer streak.

Quite by chance when dealing with one of the latter I discovered a kind of join up even if the horse in question came at me with paddling feet and beared teeth! To my fearless heroic mind - at least this meant I didn't have to chase him about, haha.

This horse taught me that very small things can make a difference - don't look directly into his eye, predators do that, don't approach with open fingers, they look like claws and most of all - any horse will come to you.... eventually so if one messed about, I'd only go with plenty of time and the minute he did come I'd turn him away again, something I repeated several times - it does work.

However, I'm unconvinced about MR as a person, what he promotes is far better than what he grew up with as a child rodeo star but is now a moneymaking engine above all else. As far as I can tell - all of those horses he befriends at shows have been well handled beforehand etc., etc.

 

[pip6]

What I intensly dislike about IH is that it targets uneducated ,ignorant or simply unsure people and gives the impression that any other way is cruel. That is an awfully wrong thing to do.

That'll be the Queen then?

 

[talkinghorse]

… I trained in join up a few times with different people, … I felt and still feel very strongly that its not for a nervous horse or one who isn't challenging your dominance. I also feel it is dangerous to attempt to join-up with a very overtly challenging horse - you are in a small enclosed space with a horse who knows his strength and how to use it against people, and then poking him with a pointy stick aka trying to assert your dominance.…

I'm a little confused by this. Did you learn it in different countries? Only Monty Roberts' advanced instructors can teach Join-Up. In UK that means only Kelly Marks.

All qualified teachers teach you about horses that you should never attempt Join-Up with. Your comments that you feel it is dangerous at certain times appear to reflect your opinion, yet it should have been something that you were taught.

"… one who isn't challenging your dominance …" is also an odd comment from someone taught Join-Up by somebody who is authorised to teach it, either that, or you didn't understand what you were being taught.

 

[Fellewell]

Here's a thing........

I have noticed that Dually halters have a tendency to twist and stick and 'practitioners' are constantly straightening them and loosening the ring ropes during training.

If reward for the horse is the immediate release from pressure when the desired behaviour is offered, then how is this achieved when the apparatus has to be constantly manually released and adjusted?

Just thought I'd ask

 

[talkinghorse]

One thing I dont like about IH is that many of ts supporters seem to think theres is the only way and everyone else is cruel.…

I've been an IH member for almost ten years and meet at least monthly with other members who have done the courses. Not one of them thinks this at all. Intelligent Horsemanship is inclusive and ever changing. If you have a method that gets the result that you want, by doing what is best for the horse and without any form of violence, then you just add it to your IH toolkit. Monty, Kelly and Ian Vanderberghe often mention whom they learned some new idea from. If they thought theirs was the ONLY WAY, then they would not learn ways from someone else to improve it.


As for thinking other people are cruel, I don't know any IH member or supporter who thinks that. They may find other methods less effective or less ethical, but that is a far cry from thinking that the people who use them are cruel.

 

[Natch]

I'm a little confused by this. Did you learn it in different countries? Only Monty Roberts' advanced instructors can teach Join-Up. In UK that means only Kelly Marks.

All qualified teachers teach you about horses that you should never attempt Join-Up with. Your comments that you feel it is dangerous at certain times appear to reflect your opinion, yet it should have been something that you were taught.

"… one who isn't challenging your dominance …" is also an odd comment from someone taught Join-Up by somebody who is authorised to teach it, either that, or you didn't understand what you were being taught.

That's interesting. You find my comments odd, but I find yours odd. Surely you would agree that in learning one should keep an open mind, ask questions and form one's own opinion?

Yes I have been taught Join UpTM both in the UK and abroad, from both Monty Roberts instructors and different takes on join up from others who were perfectly well qualified to teach their own versions. Yes I have indeed been taught about the suitability of the method for individual horses and the purpose and throry behind both Join UpTM and other takes on it. I have discussed and debated the method many a time, with many people, and I have formed my own opinions which concur with some and disagree with others, even the experts.

There is a reason I don't automatically agree with the person teaching me, no matter what their credentials are. The worst mistake I ever made with horses was to blindly trust a very highly qualified and experienced riding instructor over my own judgement, and it was my poor horse who suffered the consequences I am determined not to let a highly qualified and far more experienced than me expert cause me to do wrong by a horse again.

 

[talkinghorse]

One good writer albeit with horribly expensive books but worth it is Marlitt Wendt.www.pferdsein.de The website can be got in English as are the books.The 2 I have read are How horses feel and think and Trust instead of dominance.

Not easy to negotiate the website in its 'blog' format, even if you speak german. I went to read the article on the 'Dominance Myth' and don't agree with the explanation of positive and negative reinforcement, so I assume that the author favours just positive (and has no barriers or fences in her fields).

 

[amandap]

There is a reason I don't automatically agree with the person teaching me, no matter what their credentials are. The worst mistake I ever made with horses was to blindly trust a very highly qualified and experienced riding instructor over my own judgement, and it was my poor horse who suffered the consequences I am determined not to let a highly qualified and far more experienced than me expert cause me to do wrong by a horse again.

I think this is something we all need to take on board generally and question and then make your own mind up if you and your horse might benefit or not and if it fits with you personally. No point in doing anything you are not comfortable with however ethical you are told it is.

 

[talkinghorse]

I'm afraid that you've lost me now.
… How can something which is similar to a cotton washing line FORCED SHARPLY against the sensitive gums not cause pain? …

I doubt it can. Where did I mention FORCED SHARPLY? It lies loosely over the gum. It exerts no pressure at all, but will do so, if a horse tries to put its head down to buck. It certainly causes far less discomfort in use than a jointed snaffle, when someone tries to lead a horse with the reins over its head.

 

[Natch]

I doubt it can. Where did I mention FORCED SHARPLY? It lies loosely over the gum. It exerts no pressure at all, but will do so, if a horse tries to put its head down to buck. It certainly causes far less discomfort in use than a jointed snaffle, when someone tries to lead a horse with the reins over its head.

See this frustrates me. How can you possibly know this? I'm going to quote science again, but has the pressure on the roof of the mouth and tongue in a snaffle been measured? (yes, by Mr Cook and possibly by Klauss F.H. but neither will/can publish the results, but that's a different story ) How about the pressure exerted by the buckstop? Physics would lead me to believe that a thin line could exert a LOT of pressure, especially with the weight of the horse at speed exerted on it.

 

[talkinghorse]

See this frustrates me. How can you possibly know this? I'm going to quote science again, but has the pressure on the roof of the mouth and tongue in a snaffle been measured? (yes, by Mr Cook and possibly by Klauss F.H. but neither will/can publish the results, but that's a different story ) How about the pressure exerted by the buckstop? Physics would lead me to believe that a thin line could exert a LOT of pressure, especially with the weight of the horse at speed exerted on it.

I can't believe this is a serious question! Put a piece of cotton washing line comfortably across your gum, under the top lip. Get someone to hold the ends, with no pressure at all, over the top of your head. Now jerk your head forward! Did you use the whole 8 stone of your bodyweight? Did you stop when you felt something 'odd' against your gum?

Now get a jointed snaffle with reins attached. Place the bit over one outstretched hand and close the other hand over the top. Now get your assistant to pull you towards them with the reins.

Still need the science?

 

[Natch]

I can't believe this is a serious question! Put a piece of cotton washing line comfortably across your gum, under the top lip. Get someone to hold the ends, with no pressure at all, over the top of your head. Now jerk your head forward! Did you use the whole 8 stone of your bodyweight? Did you stop when you felt something 'odd' against your gum?

Does a horse wearing one of these really stop mid- or even pre- buck (and we're not talking a small one) first time? It is a genuine question, I don't have an awful lot of knowledge on these. Perhaps I shouldn't have commented - I assumed from what I can vaguely remember having seen MR use it in a video, that the horse certainly did not stop having felt an odd sensation, but continued to buck in full several times.

To answer assuming my memory is accurate, I don't have a long neck and a heavy skull which acts as a pendulum. I dont have the strength in my neck to lift my head from ground to air repeatedly all day long. Despite my draft horse-like body (Thank you for assuming I was 8 stone. I'm not ) I would not be able to put the force into the line which a horse who is bucking could. The comparison simply is not accurate - that is why I would test it with science.

 

[talkinghorse]

Does a horse wearing one of these really stop mid- or even pre- buck (and we're not talking a small one) first time? It is a genuine question, I don't have an awful lot of knowledge on these. … The comparison simply is not accurate - that is why I would test it with science.

I have seen it used once and the horse attempted to buck once and met the buckstopper, he then started to lower his head a second time and stopped.

How did you get on with the snaffle bit?

 

[Natch]

I have seen it used once and the horse attempted to buck once and met the buckstopper, he then started to lower his head a second time and stopped.

How did you get on with the snaffle bit?

Fair enough.

I haven't had a go with a snaffle tonight. I don't own one - can't stand them.

 

[cambrica]

When I first saw Monty Roberts back in the 1990's I always said that he was the one person, if I could, I would like to spend an hour of my life with. Luckily for me this happened this year.
Legend is not (unlike my kids) a word I would use lightly, but he is a living legend in the equine world.
When most Californian's are taking early retirement on the golf course Monty sets out to change the worlds view on creating a better existance for horses.
He does in one day of his life what I couldn't achieve in a lifetime. Yes, he is a showman but what Californian isn't (having lived there I know).
Having 40 yrs + experience with horses and always learning I wouldn't say that I was a young novice.
Having bred one and started several youngsters I know that having brought a 3yr old Welsh sec D I am capable of producing a nice all-rounder.
However, earlier this year the opportunity arose when I put Roberto's name forward for 'start-up' at a Monty demo. Why? because to see one of the greatest horsemen work on my horse was certainly something I would never forget.
Myself and my daughter spent time with Monty and Kelly during the day and as Roberto was chosen for the evening demo at no time did I question if I was asking too much of Roberto. He was checked fully by an equine physio and even in front of a large crowd, did not appear stressed or afraid.
The demo was one of the best - and seeing Monty with Roberto it was clear that his heart belongs with the horse, people and money are secondary to that.
Long may he continue his tireless campaign - especially on working in South America. Maybe one day he will take a deserved day off to enjoy his fortune.

 

[fburton]

Does a horse wearing one of these really stop mid- or even pre- buck (and we're not talking a small one) first time? It is a genuine question, I don't have an awful lot of knowledge on these. Perhaps I shouldn't have commented - I assumed from what I can vaguely remember having seen MR use it in a video, that the horse certainly did not stop having felt an odd sensation, but continued to buck in full several times.

I don't have first hand experience with these mechanical devices either. Is the buckstopper at all like the gum-line, as used by Pat Parelli on Catwalk? There was a report that a vet had examined Catwalk after the demo and had found reddening of the gums - "a bright red lesion" was what one witness reported - though I believe another vet checked the horse subsequently and found nothing medically wrong with him. In any case, one can infer that the degree of discomfort must be sufficient to overcome whatever emotions are motivating the horse to buck in the first place.

ETA: I don't mean to imply that putting a cord in a horse's mouth necessarily leads to injury - of course not. It's possible that the gum-line was misused in Catwalk's case or the tissue damage was accidental.

 

[fburton]

Long may he continue his tireless campaign - especially on working in South America.

Plenty of opportunity there to improve the lot of horses, I imagine!

 

[talkinghorse]

Plenty of opportunity there to improve the lot of horses, I imagine!

Monty is returning to UK shortly to make a joint presentation on June 24th, with HM to those leading lights who have used his work to help end violence in their own countries: Adolfo Cambiaso (Argentina), Carlos Gracida (Mexico and Argentina), Memo Gracida (Mexico and Argentina), Carlos Leite (Brazil), Catherine Cunningham (Guatemala), Eduardo Moreira (Brazil), Joel Baker (USA), Mateus Ribeiro (Brazil), and Satish Seemar (Dubai).

He has made big advances from his first visit to Argentina, when, after his first and only demonstration, he had to be hastily removed from the country to save his life.

 

[tess1]

Monty is returning to UK shortly to make a joint presentation on June 24th, with HM to those leading lights who have used his work to help end violence in their own countries: Adolfo Cambiaso (Argentina), Carlos Gracida (Mexico and Argentina), Memo Gracida (Mexico and Argentina), Carlos Leite (Brazil), Catherine Cunningham (Guatemala), Eduardo Moreira (Brazil), Joel Baker (USA), Mateus Ribeiro (Brazil), and Satish Seemar (Dubai).

He has made big advances from his first visit to Argentina, when, after his first and only demonstration, he had to be hastily removed from the country to save his life.

Was it that bad? Or were the extreme clicker fundamentalists after him?

 

[talkinghorse]

Was it that bad? Or were the extreme clicker fundamentalists after him?

I think 'extreme clicker fundamentalists' was just a cover. The gauchos were not impressed with his first demo as it implied they were all doing it wrong and would be out of a job. The next morning his host, who should have been taking him to his next demo that day, told him there had been a postponement and they had time for a round of golf first. Monty was a little surprised at the change of plan, fishing was more his kind of relaxation, not golf. He was even more surprised that they had a golf club at the airport. Once at the airport, his host explained that the gauchos had put a contract out on him!

Kelly had someone from South America on a course who wanted to see what he was up against. He was so overwhelmed with the Monty Roberts approach that he didn't go back, but stayed to work in UK. He said there would be too much 'heavy obstruction' to his work if he tried to introduce the ideas back home, but he certainly couldn't go back and carry on as he had done.

Fortunately persistence pays and time moves on. Monty having a high profile makes him able to influence people who are highly regarded in their own country. Every little helps.

 

[tess1]

I think 'extreme clicker fundamentalists' was just a cover.

Good grief Catrin, was that an attempt at humour ... I'm impressed


The gauchos were not impressed with his first demo as it implied they were all doing it wrong and would be out of a job.

Yes, I've noticed that about Monty's demos. Fortunately we are more civilised in the UK, as traditional British horsemanship - and any other kind he doesn't agree with - have put up with his claims that it is "abusive" for years.



Every little helps.

Now, now, no advertising ...

 

[talkinghorse]

… The gauchos were not impressed with his first demo as it implied they were all doing it wrong and would be out of a job.

Yes, I've noticed that about Monty's demos. Fortunately we are more civilised in the UK, as traditional British horsemanship - and any other kind he doesn't agree with - have put up with his claims that it is "abusive" for years.…

The only kind of horsemanship that he doesn't agree with is one that uses violence or damages a horse. If people think the cap fits them, they will just have to "put up with" wearing it. It is their choice, not Monty's. I'd rather he spoke up than shut up where violence is concerned. At least he shows there is a better and simpler way than swinging or beating a horse.

However, I hardly think swinging a horse — accepting the death of "the most spirited ones" as inevitable — is common in British horsemanship, though it was the norm in South America. Abusive is not a subjective value judgement, Monty is quite clear on this. He isn't comparing, or judging others, but showing that abuse isn't necessary. If others judge themselves as abusers, that is their assessment based on what they know of their own training methods. So Monty is to be applauded if he is the first person to raise their awareness of themselves.

 

[tess1]

The problem is, I think, that Monty has an interesting definition of violence. Some acts are undoubtedly extremely violent and barbaric, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But then, there are other acts where I think shades of grey come in - so it does become relative and subjective. For example, according to Monty flooding is not violent, putting a horse into learned helplessnss is not violent, yanking on a dually is not violent, using buckstoppers (even on young horses in a study meant to show how kinds his methods are) isn't violent, and join up isn't violent - even though others perceive it to put horses under pretty extreme psychological pressure. If your definition of violent is "don't hit the horse" (I appreciate that there are some training methods much, much worse than simply hitting) then no, Monty's methods are not violent. But if you consider violence to be inflicting physical pain or psychological pressure onto a horse, then the definition becomes untenable.

 

[tess1]

sorry, not quite clear in my last post, I should have said "If you consider violence to be infliciting physical pain or psychological pressure onto a horse, then the definition that Monty's methods are non-violent becomes untenable"

 

[talkinghorse]

The problem is, I think, that Monty has an interesting definition of violence. … But then, there are other acts where I think shades of grey come in - so it does become relative and subjective. … If your definition of violent is "don't hit the horse" (I appreciate that there are some training methods much, much worse than simply hitting) then no, Monty's methods are not violent. But if you consider violence to be inflicting physical pain or psychological pressure onto a horse, then the definition becomes untenable.

Monty's definition is quite clear. Anything that causes a horse pain or distress is violence. You have your opinion about the result of Monty's work, and will continue to hold it no matter what I say. There are no shades of grey, the horse has choice, the horse is not forced.

He may use flooding, but I have never seen it and he doesn't teach it. He never inflicts physical pain and until you have a way to measure the psychological pressure your opinions are just that. At least Monty has tried to use whatever equipment he can to measure what happens when he is working.

As Monty says, "Horses should be given the freedom of choice." You cannot do that if your choice is violence.