Whats people's thoughts of the Monty Roberts methods then

[leogeorge]

Francis......." habituation (or "desensitization" as it is sometimes called)"

Habituation and desensitization are two different things. A horse has to be "sensitized" ( had a previous bad/fearful experience) to an object/place/etc in order to be DEsensitised. Habituation is the process of gradually "getting used to" a novel object/place/etc but has no previous association with the new thing.

 

[Morgan123]

thanks for the link. Oh dear, little work for me for the rest of day then!!! Looking forward to reading this one.

 

[Tinypony]

The video shows a series of stills of Monty's dad, and video of other people "working" with horses. Without knowing what preparation Monty's dad did with the horses he tied in various ways, or seeing how they reacted, it's a bit hard to judge. I hasten to add that I don't like the look of what is happening in the stills, but adding video of someone else working a horse is a little bit... leading? Misleading? Emotive? Just makes me a bit uncomfortable.
I'd be interested to know what people think about the description of hooking up.
Looking at Monty's dad's book, and the work with Blushing ET, am I the only one who thinks in terms of glasshouses and stones?
Shame really, as I have alway said, Monty did do some useful work in changing the perceptions of SOME people about how they worked with horses.

 

[Littlelegs]

Agree entirely tiny pony. A tied up horse is a more emotive picture, but the same theory & result is behind it.

 

[Fellewell]

I'm not a 'practitioner' just someone who finds the dually a lifesaver for a big strong ID.
Good question, my view is that this happens when the dually isn't properly fitted, when it's snug but not tight I experience very little movement. I wonder as well in what circumstances you have seen them used. I feel it very important to take time to train in a calm and non reactive situation, I lead in from the field and frequently practise halts and releases.
Once the lead rope is loose there is no pull or pressure on the halter so whilst minor adjustments may be needed before the next manoeuvre the pressure has been released..well that's my experience. It is incidental to me that this is a Monty Roberts halter, I would have bought one whoever developed it.

Great news on your horse, he sounds very well-mannered.

They're blowing smoke up our rears with these gadgets. They're not nearly precise enough IMO.

FWIW after watching someone 'in the field' I was also lent an official training video.

 

[Tinypony]

I can't think of any situation where I'd tie a leg, unless I tied them all together because a horse was upside down in a ditch maybe! But even doing that drastic thing, there would be more than one way to go about it ie gradually and with the horse learning to accept it (as they do for the farrier to hold their legs between his). Or suddenly and forcefully as shown in that video. And the "sacking out" if done resonably then it becomes "approach and retreat". Just playing devil's advocate here.
I know that some here would find all of the above unacceptable and I'm fine with them having that opinion, just struggling to find some balance in what is being presented.

 

[Littlelegs]

Fwiw I think a dually is a variation on a stallion chain in how it works. If someone like Mozlar makes an informed choice between that & a stallion chain, rope halter etc its all personal preference & a case of what gets the job done. What I do object to is that novices, whether intended by monty or not, often feel a dually is a kind & natural method of control & all similar ones are cruel & unnatural.

 

[fburton]

Habituation and desensitization are two different things. A horse has to be "sensitized" ( had a previous bad/fearful experience) to an object/place/etc in order to be DEsensitised. Habituation is the process of gradually "getting used to" a novel object/place/etc but has no previous association with the new thing.

Yes, the two terms have rather different meanings, but I considered that unimportant in the context of this discussion. For example, habituation is the general process by which an animal becomes used to any stimulus and it can happen at any time, while desensitization refers to the specific procedure as carried out systematically by a person with the aim of changing behaviour. Some people also make the distinction between threatening and non-threatening stimuli. However, both involve repeated exposure to the stimulus until the response wanes.

To be honest, this is the first time I have seen desensitization defined in precisely the way you say. Do you have a cite for that? Maybe this usage is more common in human psychology?

The requirement for previous sensitization is not one that all authors recognize. For instance, part of Dr Robert Miller's "imprint training" procedure (which I strongly dislike, btw) involves "desensitizing" (his word) the newborn foal to all manner of more or less invasive stimuli to which the foal would not have been exposed before, and hence not "sensitized". Arguably, habituation would be a more accurate way to describe this, but I give this as an example of common usage.

 

[Morgan123]

What I do object to is that novices, whether intended by monty or not, often feel a dually is a kind & natural method of control & all similar ones are cruel & unnatural.

agree - very good point, and one that MR&co make use of by saying it is kind - e.g. Monty's quote that the dually 'whispers corrections but shouts praise'.

 

[neelie OAP]

Fwiw I think a dually is a variation on a stallion chain in how it works. If someone like Mozlar makes an informed choice between that & a stallion chain, rope halter etc its all personal preference & a case of what gets the job done. What I do object to is that novices, whether intended by monty or not, often feel a dually is a kind & natural method of control & all similar ones are cruel & unnatural.

Yes I agree, but do you think its because they really have not quite understood how it actually works, and how it can really hurt the horse only having a very thin layer of skin covering the area where it actually becomes tight when yanked, even if it loosen off, it has still caused pain IMO !

 

[Natch]

The gumline is an effective aversive stimulus: instantaneous with the serious attempt to buck; sufficient to abort the behaviour. A bit would be totally inappropriate. It is designed for an entirely different purpose and should be used for that. I can't imagine the damage that would occur to a horse's mouth if a horse bucked and the rider pulled on the reins.

Going to have to leave that debate here because I disagree with you on all of that apart from the first sentence.

I just wanted to make explicit the point about there being a threshold level of aversive stimulus intensity.

Very happy for your contribution

... as I have alway said, Monty did do some useful work in changing the perceptions of SOME people about how they worked with horses.

Absolutely. Regardless of how I may evaluate his methods now, he is the first person who was responsible for making me think about whether I wanted to work with or against a horse, and whether I wanted a partnership or a boss/subordinate relationship, which I am very grateful to him for.

 

[Littlelegs]

Neelie, yes, I think in the case of some novices its entirely down to a lack of understanding of how it works. In experienced hands, as a means to an ends I have no issues with one if required, I would assume its used with the same knowledge & reasoning that myself, or anyone else might use a stallion chain. But some as you say have no idea of what it actually does, quick scan of the dvd, no idea of correct leading in the first place & problems solved, with no idea how or why it has an effect, just a vague idea monty = kind & natural, & a false idea they are more caring than someone who uses something else.
I do sort of get the marketing, I think its kinder to use something for a short time than spend a lifetime fighting, or when its a safety issue. Just don't like the misconceptions some have.

 

[amandap]

'Newbies' are prey to everyone and especially their livery mates and YO's.
If everything was perfect in UK horsey land no one would go looking for other ways surely.

 

[Morgan123]

'Newbies' are prey to everyone and especially their livery mates and YO's.
If everything was perfect in UK horsey land no one would go looking for other ways surely.

True but it's not just newbies and total novices, they are marketed as kind to everyone!

 

[Littlelegs]

Yes, true. But I know plenty of newbies who think chifneys, chains etc are cruel & mean & wouldn't dream of buying or using one who believe duallys are different due to the image of natural horsemanship.

 

[amandap]

Yes, true. But I know plenty of newbies who think chifneys, chains etc are cruel & mean & wouldn't dream of buying or using one who believe duallys are different due to the image of natural horsemanship.

Oh yes, I forgot duallies are less kind and not less severe than chiffneys or yanking chains across the nose. Or even snaffles yanked.
Keep doing what you're doing with your bits, chiffneys and chains you all know best. I have to bow to your greater knowledge and experience but I still wont be following your advice/recommendations of stallion chains, chiffney and bits etc.

 

[Morgan123]

Oh yes, I forgot duallies are less kind and not less severe than chiffneys or yanking chains across the nose. Or even snaffles yanked.
Keep doing what you're doing with your bits, chiffneys and chains you all know best. I have to bow to your greater knowledge and experience but I still wont be following your advice/recommendations of stallion chains, chiffney and bits etc.

I don't think anyone anywhere in this thread has recommended the use of a stallion chain, chiffney or bit instead of a dually? Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Rather, the argument here has been that the dually is kinder - when actually that is doubtful. Personally, I would never use any of these except in a massively dangerous circumstance - can't even imagine what, but if it was really the only option or something.

 

[Fellewell]

Fwiw I think a dually is a variation on a stallion chain in how it works. If someone like Mozlar makes an informed choice between that & a stallion chain, rope halter etc its all personal preference & a case of what gets the job done. What I do object to is that novices, whether intended by monty or not, often feel a dually is a kind & natural method of control & all similar ones are cruel & unnatural.

I'll get shot down but I would argue that a properly weighted stallion chain on a well fitting leather headcollar is actually kinder than a Dually and the message is clearer. 9 out of 10 times the confidence issue is with the handler, not the horse. He doesn't 'learn' to behave his handler just gets used to him

 

[Littlelegs]

No ones recommending people should use them instead of duallys? My point isn't that one isn't kinder or more natural than the other just because its made by monty Roberts. If you, or anyone else chooses to use a dually correctly, as I've already said its exactly the same principle as me using a stallion chain correctly. Which doesn't involve yanking it across the nose any more than a dually does. There is no moral high ground to be gained from using one over the other imo. But the fact remains that nobody markets chains or chifneys as a kind & natural approach in the way duallys, intentionally or not are.

 

[amandap]

Rather, the argument here has been that the dually is kinder - when actually that is doubtful.

As I stated, I will have to bow to your greater knowledge and experience.

 

[Fellewell]

Monty is returning to UK shortly to make a joint presentation on June 24th, with HM to those leading lights who have used his work to help end violence in their own countries: Adolfo Cambiaso (Argentina), Carlos Gracida (Mexico and Argentina), Memo Gracida (Mexico and Argentina), Carlos Leite (Brazil), Catherine Cunningham (Guatemala), Eduardo Moreira (Brazil), Joel Baker (USA), Mateus Ribeiro (Brazil), and Satish Seemar (Dubai).

He has made big advances from his first visit to Argentina, when, after his first and only demonstration, he had to be hastily removed from the country to save his life.

That's Huggly Horsemanship territory isn't it?

Getting swung round by the gauchos may be the least of his worries

 

[leogeorge]

Hi Francis,

My explaination of the difference between DS and habituation, was not a "precise definition" directly quoted from anywhere, but my own words.

I would say though that just because most horse trainers describe habituation as DS, doesn't make them correct though does it? Horses habituate to things naturally all the time. They can also be sensitised and therefore need a programme of DS, so I don't see why there shouldn't be clarification where non human animals are concerned? Or have I misunderstood your point?

You raise an interesting point though. I think the way a lot of trainers go about what should be a gradual habituation scenario, go so blumming quickly that they do actually sensitize and the process does then become one of DS. Monty Roberts does this a LOT. I have seen imprinting go this way too.

 

[fburton]

I would say though that just because most horse trainers describe habituation as DS, doesn't make them correct though does it? Horses habituate to things naturally all the time. They can also be sensitised and therefore need a programme of DS, so I don't see why there shouldn't be clarification where non human animals are concerned? Or have I misunderstood your point?

I'm not sure. For what was being discussed, either habituation or desensitization could be used without creating confusion. I preferred the term desensitization (a particular kind of habituation). No biggie.

You raise an interesting point though. I think the way a lot of trainers go about what should be a gradual habituation scenario, go so blumming quickly that they do actually sensitize and the process does then become one of DS. Monty Roberts does this a LOT. I have seen imprinting go this way too.

Here I am sure we are on exactly the same wavelength. The risk of inadvertently sensitizing the foal is one of the reasons I dislike "imprinting".

 

[Carloss]

Four months ago, my new horse, a 15hh, 9 year old gelding, was delivered. His previous owners, who bred him, were completely honest about issues he had about boxing. He had previously been on loan, with a view to selling him, and had a very bad experience in the trailer. On his return, they had help with his loading problem, and explained that he would load, but it had to be approached in a specific way. When he arrived in a ‘dually halter’, I knew what techniques were required.

Although I have had no actual experience with the dually halter, or the techniques used in Intelligent Horsemanship, I have watched programmes on Horse & Country TV, particularly about loading problems.

After a couple of months, my young instructor & I decided Jackson and I were ready to go to our first unaffiliated dressage competition at a local School of Equitation. So, time to see how the new boy loaded into my converted Ford Transit lorry. After three practice sessions, he was practically running up the ramp! He also learnt to turn in the box, and wait at the top of the ramp until I gave the signal for us to proceed calmly down.

Of course, on the morning of the competition, it did not go quite so well. However, my friend, who was accompanying me as it was a new horse, and I had allowed plenty of time in anticipation of this scenario. We were very calm and patient and he loaded in less than five minutes. After the competition, as he was rooted to the spot at the bottom of the ramp, I did wonder if I would be hacking home. However, after approximately half an hour, he relented and walked up the ramp. As it was our first outing, I was absolutely delighted.

On reflection, when I analysed the success of the day, I decided that there was a good deal of beginners luck involved. Also, I needed to be able to deal with everything on my own. My older horse, who is semi-retired now, and I frequently went to events on our own, or met friends at the venue. Maybe it would be better to contact Intelligent Horsemanship to improve my understanding and make sure that I did not inadvertently make the problem worse.

It turned out that the representative I contacted had worked with Jackson when he was with his previous owner. I thought that this continuity would be an advantage .

The representative wanted the horsebox taken down to my ménage. Although I would never load from there, I reluctantly agreed to back the lorry into the gateway. We have a history of vehicles getting stuck in there! There is also a slight downward slope to it, which actually made the ramp slightly steeper.

I have always loaded my other horse into the lorry in the driveway. It is safe, secure, and the layout from the stable yard helps funnel the horse into the box. We are very rural, but we back onto a very busy woodyard that has huge lorries going past the ménage to make deliveries.

However, I don’t ask an expert to help and then argue with them. She said that Jackson had reared and thrown himself around previously, and the ménage would be safer. He did rear once at the show, but never during my practice sessions.

When we commenced the loading in the ménage, he did rear several times. There was a lot of pulling him this way and that way, and he did go into the lorry twice. On the second occasion he had a bit of a panic attack and the lorry started rocking. This had happened in one of my sessions, but I managed to calm him down, and we proceeded without it becoming an issue. The expert calmed him down, but he was not going to go back in the lorry again. After another hour of pulling him this way and that, she conceded that she had probably made the situation worse, and we agreed to end the session. With my tongue firmly clenched in my teeth, I gave her a cup of coffee and her fee and travel expenses, and fervently regretted the whole morning.

I am purposely not naming the individual. I am not pointing the finger or making any recriminations; I just want to try and undo the damage she has done and move on.

This incident happened over three weeks ago. I have the lorry parked next to the house, and when I hack out I put the ramp down. He is still very nervous and shies away from it as we pass!

Please can you advise me what you consider my next course of action should be.

To answer my own question, I contacted Michael Peace. He came and very quietly put my horse and I back on track. My horse didn't rear or throw himself around at any time

 

[talkinghorse]

… This incident happened over three weeks ago. I have the lorry parked next to the house, and when I hack out I put the ramp down. He is still very nervous and shies away from it as we pass!

Please can you advise me what you consider my next course of action should be.

To answer my own question, I contacted Michael Peace. He came and very quietly put my horse and I back on track. My horse didn't rear or throw himself around at any time

Got a little bit confused in reading here. You had an incident three weeks ago and ask what you should do now. Then you suddenly remember, that Michael Peace has been round and sorted your problem!

His wasn't a memorable visit then! However, it does bring me to a question.

I saw Michael Peace quite a few years back. I went with my local IHRA, who recommended the demo and I must say I was very impressed — even if he came across as nervous and paranoiac with the audience — he was very good with the horses. It was from him I suppose that I first observed, keep your horse moving all the time, like the person mentioned above did with your horse, as this was the difficult loader.

In the intervening years, I have heard very mixed reports, about the way he works with horses. A friend had him come to help her eventer. She hoped he would tell her what to do, but he seemed to spend all day doing things, but not giving her sufficient expertise to make progress. Anyone else any experience of using him?

 

[Baileybones]

I can honestly say that my mare would not be with me now if I had not made the call to Michael Peace. My only regret is that I treated him as a last resort and as such we both endured months more grief than we would have done had I called him out earlier.

I was having real trouble with my Ex racer and things have reached a head. She'd been checked over at great expense and pain had been ruled out but my YO was on the verge of asking us to leave as my girl was getting dangerous to be around and how could I in all conscience move her to another yard knowing how she could be. I was honestly on the verge of having her PTS and had even had that conversation with my vet.

Michael came out within days of my call and there were no gadgets / pressure halters etc.
He worked quietly with my mare and within about an hour or so had her working nicely with him. The issue he worked on was that she would not be tacked up without exploding.
Once she was happy with him doing this I was invited to work with her. It was horrible as her owner to see her react so badly when I apporiached her with the bridle when she's been fine with Michael but of course I had to realise (and did) that I have becone part of the process and part of the problem.
Michael helped me by explaining what I was doing wrong and how to correct things. He didn't leave me until he was happy that she and I were ok together and then he gave me very clear instructions on how often I had to repeat this and what to do if / when we had a set back.

These "tools" mean that I have been able to deal with other issues that have occurred over the last year or so as we've got to know each other but importantly I now know how to sort things before they even get so bad.

I now have a relationship with my mare based on respect and trust. We both owe Michael Peace for that.

I can appreciate though that it is very hard to admit that you need help and I have personally met people who would rather label a horse as dangerous than see someone else "fix" it. Also if you're not prepared to take on board the advice and keep up the work then things will regress I'm sure.

 

[Baileybones]

Sorry - also in order to put the above post in context I left racing to work for an "Expert" who advertises himself as using the Monty Roberts technique.
I can honestly say I have never seen more "over horsed" owners fed a sales patter involving them parting with vast amounts of cash but worse never seen such abuse of some horses.
The pressure halters which are so widely used and easy to acquire are lethal in the wrong hands and I would die before I let someone put one on my horses.
The final straw for me was when I saw a horse tied to a large telegraph pole in the middle of a field in summer with no shelter or water for several hours. It was "punishment" for a the horse who refused to "Join up" with said expert.
I argued this was barbaric to the point I was told to shut up or leave. I left.

I did my research thoroughly and called Michael Peace for the very fact that there is no gimic / no gadgets just absolute common sense thought out from the horses point of view. I can not speak highly enough of him and have put several people in touch with him who have all been equally impressed.

 

[talkinghorse]

… an "Expert" who advertises himself as using the Monty Roberts technique. …
The final straw for me was when I saw a horse tied to a large telegraph pole in the middle of a field in summer with no shelter or water for several hours. It was "punishment" for a the horse who refused to "Join up" with said expert.
I argued this was barbaric to the point I was told to shut up or leave. I left. …

Might I ask what steps you took to report the animal cruelty and to inform the Monty Roberts organisation that this sort of abuse was happening in its name.

So far, this seems like anonymous accusations, with no evidence to back them up. Anyone can say that they use anyone else's methods, but those who are entitled to do so, are listed on the Intelligent Horsemanship and Monty Roberts websites. No approved trainer, nor even a good student of either would use these methods. Both have mechanisms for monitoring and feedback to ensure that this type of abuse does not happen.

You say that this was the final straw, which implies that you tolerated other forms of abuse. If you subsequently failed to take action to report the abusive trainer, then you are as guilty of the cruelty as he was.

 

[Baileybones]

Might I ask what steps you took to report the animal cruelty and to inform the Monty Roberts organisation that this sort of abuse was happening in its name.

So far, this seems like anonymous accusations, with no evidence to back them up. Anyone can say that they use anyone else's methods, but those who are entitled to do so, are listed on the Intelligent Horsemanship and Monty Roberts websites. No approved trainer, nor even a good student of either would use these methods. Both have mechanisms for monitoring and feedback to ensure that this type of abuse does not happen.

You say that this was the final straw, which implies that you tolerated other forms of abuse. If you subsequently failed to take action to report the abusive trainer, then you are as guilty of the cruelty as he was.

The "Un named" trainer "claims to have spent years working with Monty Roberts and advertises himself as using the Join Up method. My "Toleration" of abuse as you so eloquently put it was seeing owners at their wits end being sold weeks and weeks worth of "training" when the honest answer was that they were over horses and in danger. I saw 2yr olds coming through on such a tight schedule as they had to be started and ready to work within 2 weeks regardless of their mental / physical ability to cope with what was happening.
Who wants to witness someone who can "back" a horse in 30 minutes only to be told that actually said horse really needs weeks worth of long reining / handling to be ready for said rider?
For what it is worth I did report said trainer and was told that it would be looked into. Without an owner stepping forward though I was just a disgruntled Ex employee. The owner of the horse tied to the pole told me that whilst it was upsetting to watch it was probably for the greater good. Even at the start of my career with horses I realised that this was brain washing at it's best / worst.

As I said before if you want to be told that you are doing nothing wrong and have your own behaviour validated then please continue with your Join up and Pressure halters.
Alternatively if you actually want a relationship with your horse based on trust and respect then you'd be better off contacting MP.
A horse who learns to respnd to the pressure halter is still responding to force - just a more PC version of it.

 

[talkinghorse]

… For what it is worth I did report said trainer and was told that it would be looked into. Without an owner stepping forward though I was just a disgruntled Ex employee. …

I cannot seriously believe that it mattered to the Monty Roberts' organisation that you were an ex-employee. They would have investigated and stripped the trainer of his status. Is the trainer still listed on the Monty Roberts or Intelligent Horsemanship website? If so, you should complain again and make sure they investigate; surely you owe it to the horses.

As I said before if you want to be told that you are doing nothing wrong and have your own behaviour validated then please continue with your Join up and Pressure halters. …

I don't seek to have my own behaviour validated. I have never used Join–Up or a pressure halter to rehabilitate our ex-racer, but my husband rides western and uses a Dually to ride in, as the horse's racing career taught him to dislike bits. With clicker training, he quickly accepted an english bit, though Monty's shaping approach would have worked just as well. However, my husband doesn't own/need a western bit, so he rides his horse in the Dually: handy if he needs to lead him on a ride.

My horses do what I want, because they have choices and decide that they want to do what I ask; no force or punishment involved … ever.