Showjumping When do jumps stop looking big?

[Ambers Echo]

I totally agree with those who have said that flatwork is important but I also think jumps change the way horses move and the way riders ride until both are confident and familiar with jumping - which I think can only come from practicing jumps. A horse and rider can have great flatwork but the horse can still rush fences or back off. And a rider can be very skilled on the flat but lose access to those skills when faced with fences.

I do really like grid work for confidence for both horse and rider. A nice grid with an oxer at the end of it is a good way to start jumping a bit bigger without worrying about the shot you get to the bigger fence. So both horse and rider have a good experience of jumping a bit bigger.

 

[milliepops]

so the reason why i think this is flatwork at its root is that it's not the jump that Skylla is getting wrong, she's getting from one side to the other successfully. it's the approach and exit from the jump, that is characterised by her tuning out HP's instructions and doing her own thing, and/or HP not being consistent enough with the canter quality.

While it may be triggered by the jumps, it's a basic (basic, not easy!) training issue that can be addressed without needing to put a course up. Skylla needs to learn to accept the aids fully and let herself be put into a canter and HP needs stay in it regardless of whether she's going around a turn, along a straight line, approaching or departing from a jump.

If the horse is over reacting to the leg or trying to hook off through exuberance or lack of confidence then just jumping more and more fences just the same is not going to improve that, it's probably going to be harder because there are distractions that will take them away from their mission of acceptance, confidence and consistency

 

[Ambers Echo]

I hesitate to argue with anything you say MP as you are far more experienced than me and I respect your views hugely. BUT, Amber was quite simply a totally different beast once the jumps went up. She became very rideable on the flat. I did all sorts of rideability stuff with her including cow work and she was tuned into me very intently. But when she saw jumps she changed and that connection went out the window. In the end with her what worked best was jumps with trot poles approaching and she never knew if we were doing poles and circling away or fdoing poles then carrying on over the fence, so she stopped anticipating a jump coming up. Also the arena laid out with sets of poles and jumps, and as soon as she tuned me out I'd head for the nearest set of canter poles and circle till she was back in her box then we'd head for another jump. If she jumped nicely and stayed on the aids, we did 2-3 jumps in a row. And it built up slowly like that. It was a mental game not a schooling one really. Or at least to access her schooling she needed to change mentally when it came to jumping.

 

[milliepops]

I'd have agreed with you probably until about 5 or 6 years ago when I truly started to understand all things in horse training as boiling down to the very basics, if a horse does flying changes in counter canter it's a submission problem not a counter canter problem, if a horse runs off when it sees a jump it's that same submission problem, my horse that gets cross when asked to passage is yet another facet of the same submission problem.

there's an understanding and technical element, in this case: this is the canter, this is the rhythm, you need to stay rideable over your back and in the contact, and remain on my aids... and then you transpose that to the jump arena and for me, it is submission (you might call it a different word but in the training scales that's the basic translation) that means that the understanding work you did elsewhere still holds fast when there are other things that challenge your partnership. i.e. exciting jumpieeeeees!

 

[Ambers Echo]

That's interesting. Food for thought x

 

[palo1]

I'd have agreed with you probably until about 5 or 6 years ago when I truly started to understand all things in horse training as boiling down to the very basics, if a horse does flying changes in counter canter it's a submission problem not a counter canter problem, if a horse runs off when it sees a jump it's that same submission problem, my horse that gets cross when asked to passage is yet another facet of the same submission problem.

there's an understanding and technical element, in this case: this is the canter, this is the rhythm, you need to stay rideable over your back and in the contact, and remain on my aids... and then you transpose that to the jump arena and for me, it is submission (you might call it a different word but in the training scales that's the basic translation) that means that the understanding work you did elsewhere still holds fast when there are other things that challenge your partnership. i.e. exciting jumpieeeeees!

I don't jump much at the moment but this absolutely makes sense and for me is easier if you replace the word 'submission' with 'trust and respect'. It is vital for safety reasons if you are jumping anything other than tiddlers, that your horse can trust and respect (or submit to) your instructions on the flat and in the approach phase. It is then your job to trust and respect your horse to get over the obstacle! I have had many horses that I have not put the basics in place properly and eventually I did frighten myself with the way things can go badly wrong. Then it is no fun at all and nerves are your subconscious telling you that possibly something is amiss. That feeling usually really is there for a reason. It is hugely more fun to get the flatwork in place to the point where you know that you can control the flatwork/approach phase. I know how difficult that is to achieve and work at though.

 

[Rowreach]

I don't jump much at the moment but this absolutely makes sense and for me is easier if you replace the word 'submission' with 'trust and respect'. It is vital for safety reasons if you are jumping anything other than tiddlers, that your horse can trust and respect (or submit to) your instructions on the flat and in the approach phase. It is then your job to trust and respect your horse to get over the obstacle! I have had many horses that I have not put the basics in place properly and eventually I did frighten myself with the way things can go badly wrong. Then it is no fun at all and nerves are your subconscious telling you that possibly something is amiss. That feeling usually really is there for a reason. It is hugely more fun to get the flatwork in place to the point where you know that you can control the flatwork/approach phase. I know how difficult that is to achieve and work at though.

Yup, mutual acceptance.

The other thing is, the better the basic work, the safer and more fun the more advanced/leaving the floor stuff is, and then the jumps will definitely not seem so big.

It really is worth stepping back and revisiting stuff to make sure the building blocks are holding together properly.

 

[ycbm]

Is there a point you come down to a fence and just feel confident?

For me it's when I'm on the right horse. I'm a pro at teaching the "wrong" horse to start refusing show jumps.

Skylla has never looked easy to jump to me. I've watched her action over and over and tried to work it out. I think you've said she isn't conventionally bred?

I'm struggling to find the way to describe it, so please forgive me if this is clunky, but she looks like she jumps the fence with her front end and her back end separately instead of a one fluid unit linked by a spine bascule. And that the jump originates with the front legs instead of with the back ones coming under to lift the front.

I suspect that doesn't give you the feeling that you need to judge the jump confidently, even though she's very athletic, capable and bold. (eta and pretty!)

I think others have given you better advice than I can how to get her to sit and take off from an uphill stride, so I'm not at all sure my observation helps but I thought I'd just say that I don't think it's all you.
.

 

[EventingMum]

I really think it's not the height that's an issue, as others have said the canter needs to improve and more fluency is required. At present, there is quite a "discussion" between you and Skylla on the approach to the fence and you are "holding" quite a bit, the canter is not really travelling forward and she isn't truly connected - by forward I don't mean fast, the canter needs to be consistently a bit bigger and rounder. Being more consistent will make it more rideable and honestly, at these heights, I wouldn't be looking for the perfect stride as that will mean you want to constantly adjust, I would just focus on the canter. Over the fence, she is not doing anything dreadful but on landing, there is a lack of balance and harmony between you and I feel you need to look up and focus on riding forward into the canter you need not holding back to adjust. I would try and ride a course with your leg on consistently to keep her connected and the canter consistently forward (not fast) and regular and let the jumps take care of themselves. Once you have that canter it will be so much easier to fine-tune things.

Obviously, her conformation and natural way of going all play a big part in this and I suspect this canter doesn't come naturally to her. I would keep the fences at a height that encourages her to make a shape over the fence but doesn't feel big to you. In a way, you are trying to protect her too much in your efforts to get the perfect stride but she has to take some responsibility herself, especially as you have said you do some xc. I suspect as the canter improves everything will feel much easier and the height of the fences will not be an issue as both of you will be more confident with both the fences and each other.

 

[KittyH]

I'd try more related distances same principle as grid work but with less "help" maybe

Yes, exactly what I was going to suggest. You could use canter poles too. Say set up a small upright to an oxer on 5 strides with canter poles in between. Then remove every other canter pole, then finally all the canter poles and try and maintain the feel you will have got for a regular, even canter stride. Should be good for establishing her correct canter and your understanding and confidence in what that feels like. I find that developing the feel of the right SJ canter for each of my two very different horses is the difficult bit, and the days I have it I SJ well and the days I don't aren't so good, which I think is similar to what @milliepops was saying in her first reply. I think I also find the jumps always look big, but what looks big now would have looked unjumpable a few years ago, when I was returning to eventing after a break, so that is progress of a sort - the fear factor is always there, but I have stretched what takes me there!

 

[MissMay]

I had one before similar to her and what I did was lunge to build up strength in loose side reins (you mention weak behind)
then when doing flatwork I found the perfect jumping canter- ideally you should be able to do anything from your canter with no adjustments. once I sorted this I found a song that matched the tempo and that helped me constantly keep it. its every single ride you need to work on the canter and build the muscle. once the canter in flat was sorted I added a mix of poles and cross poles and just slotted them into our flatwork (this is when your music comes in) as without realizing alot of riders will sit deeper and drive the canter or will tense up etc

once we could pop around poles and cross poles I'd do cross poles and straight bars again all tiny and do this again and keep building it

if she gets excited drop the contact sp she has nothing to fight and make her keep centering even when she wants to stop, reset, go again

 

[Accidental Eventer]

I don't have much more to add really, but my chestnut looks very similar to yours. He had a very inconsistent rhythm, and even when I got it so much better, he would always rush that last stride and chip. It made it so hard, and the fences always looked so big because the rhythm wasn't there. He also does a lot of head flinging nonsense too.

The thing that changed for me was riding my other horse. He needs lots of support from the leg into a quiet consistent contact, and he can maintain his own rhythm. he taught me what it felt like and taught me tor ride more securely and with my body rather than just with my hands.

This has transferred to the chestnut, and I realise now how much more effective I am at maintaining the rhythm with my body, using more leg and far less hand for EVERYTHING. It was like something clicked in his head the first time I did canter poles with this new improved version of myself and he backed himself off for the first time ever. Since then he has been gradually improving. I've had him 9 years and have always been working on the issue, the main thing that changed was me. Suddenly the jumps look smaller because I know the canter is right where it never has been before.

So not super helpful but you have my sympathy!

 

[palo1]

I don't have much more to add really, but my chestnut looks very similar to yours. He had a very inconsistent rhythm, and even when I got it so much better, he would always rush that last stride and chip. It made it so hard, and the fences always looked so big because the rhythm wasn't there. He also does a lot of head flinging nonsense too.

The thing that changed for me was riding my other horse. He needs lots of support from the leg into a quiet consistent contact, and he can maintain his own rhythm. he taught me what it felt like and taught me tor ride more securely and with my body rather than just with my hands.

This has transferred to the chestnut, and I realise now how much more effective I am at maintaining the rhythm with my body, using more leg and far less hand for EVERYTHING. It was like something clicked in his head the first time I did canter poles with this new improved version of myself and he backed himself off for the first time ever. Since then he has been gradually improving. I've had him 9 years and have always been working on the issue, the main thing that changed was me. Suddenly the jumps look smaller because I know the canter is right where it never has been before.

So not super helpful but you have my sympathy!

Yes, mine too as I have a horse that is horribly inconsistent and hard work as well as not being particularly interested in jumping so actually I just don't worry about jumping with him; there are other ways I can have lots of fun with that horse but I do understand about having a horse that does enjoy it and has got the potential. Skylla is lovely btw.

 

[Northern]

Not much to add really, echo the others about the canter.

She needs to be more consistent, rhythmic and "quieter" in her striding so she can jump more effectively. Once you can achieve this, you will not have to "fight" with her so much and when you're ready I find the jumps look small and boring and it's time to put them up.

I think you need to let her be a bit more forward so she has a more fluid canter, but train her to consistency. This means canter poles, grids, discipline to improve the pace. Circles are free and endless if she fights you and props in front, do not let her jump off that and be super strict about that. Once she has a more rhythmic stride you can start working on the adjustability, once you have that you can jump anything, the height doesn't matter.

She's going to be a bit more difficult to establish a nice canter in as you know, but having seen what you've done with your other horse, you are more than capable of cracking this one as well. It is definitely worth spending the time building the foundations, it will pay dividends later on.

 

[quizzie]

Just a brief comment, many posters have given great advice, and the comments about submission and acceptance are very valid, especially in the dressage and show jumping phases...but be careful how much submission is carried through to the cross country phase.
You need to leave an element of independent thought for xc in my opinion....even the best riders will get it wrong at times, and with fixed fences at speed, you need a horse to be able to find that bit extra to help you out.

 

[Baccara]

Never!!

 

[milliepops]

I wondered at the time of writing the word "Submission" if someone would pick up on that, tbh in this case I'd replace it with "control" because that's what it boils down to... i don't think it's safe to ride XC without a fair degree of control on the SJ and the BE rules support that I don't think it stops a horse finding the 5th leg when you need it or adjusting itself, we aren't talking about GP dressage levels of micromanaged control, just a safe adjustable and consistent reproduce-able way of going

 

[Roxylola]

Independent thought is all well and good but I'd say especially at grassroots, rideability is more important. The ability to get in trouble is pretty limited at 80/90 and having a rideable consistent canter will help far more to eliminate the need for a 5th leg than the horse having an ability to think for itself.
With regard to what accidental eventer said about sitting on something that needed a different style youd be welcome to have a pop on supercob at smallwood, he is _very_ consistent

 

[LEC]

Just a brief comment, many posters have given great advice, and the comments about submission and acceptance are very valid, especially in the dressage and show jumping phases...but be careful how much submission is carried through to the cross country phase.
You need to leave an element of independent thought for xc in my opinion....even the best riders will get it wrong at times, and with fixed fences at speed, you need a horse to be able to find that bit extra to help you out.

I just don't think this is true actually. Its a myth. The more I have worked with top class trainers and watched top class people ride then I know submission is required on modern cross country. I watched Chris Burton xc school and it was eye opening in the discipline/submission he put into the horse. After all it should stop and go effortlessly. When you put your leg on you should have a reaction. When you half halt it should happen with no issues. The reason people have issues is for me three reasons - the horses eye is taken off the fence, they come in the wrong gear to the fence or they don't allow the horse to use its neck. These are submission issues because the horse is not going in a relaxed manner, its not listening or the rider is fighting with the horse.

At top level now on xc I see more snaffles than ever before. You do not see the massive leaver gag bits now. You cannot have a horse run through the bridle for 3 strides after a jump as they need to be turning for the next fence on landing. I don't think those top horses have less of a 5th leg. I think training is a lot better and the riders are really good.

 

[sportsmansB]

Just a brief comment, many posters have given great advice, and the comments about submission and acceptance are very valid, especially in the dressage and show jumping phases...but be careful how much submission is carried through to the cross country phase.
You need to leave an element of independent thought for xc in my opinion....even the best riders will get it wrong at times, and with fixed fences at speed, you need a horse to be able to find that bit extra to help you out.

My horse is very obedient and submissive, but it doesn't stop him being clever enough to look after us / himself xc. I don't ride a xc course the same as a round of SJ, but he still has to be accurate and I know what is coming up next whereas he doesn't, so he also has to be obedient and come back to me for a drop fence or a short strided distance on a curving line. If you watch a cross country round at the top level with a horse which isn't submissive (I'm thinking Tim Price had a hairy one not that long ago, maybe Wesko) its flipping terrifying.

A really good event horse needs to have good footwork and be brave, not necessarily thinking independently/not being submissive, just agile enough and given the freedom of their body / neck from the rider to deal with situations when they happen.

 

[LEC]

My horse is very obedient and submissive, but it doesn't stop him being clever enough to look after us / himself xc. I don't ride a xc course the same as a round of SJ, but he still has to be accurate and I know what is coming up next whereas he doesn't, so he also has to be obedient and come back to me for a drop fence or a short strided distance on a curving line. If you watch a cross country round at the top level with a horse which isn't submissive (I'm thinking Tim Price had a hairy one not that long ago, maybe Wesko) its flipping terrifying.

A really good event horse needs to have good footwork and be brave, not necessarily thinking independently/not being submissive, just agile enough and given the freedom of their body / neck from the rider to deal with situations when they happen.

It was Bango at Badminton and he pulled him up. Gemma Tattersall had a similar issue at Rio with her mare and it was a nightmare.

 

[quizzie]

I think there is a difference between obedience and submission.....obedient I entirely agree, for modern xc courses is essential (mind you I much preferred riding the “proper xc courses” back in the old days of roads and tracks etc, rather than the glorified gymkhana courses these days!)

...however submission to me means waiting for the rider for every signal, and I think that is as dangerous...I remember watching Paul Schokomoler(sp.?) on Diester at Hickstead....he appeared to forget to tell the horse the takeoff spot for some planks, and the horse simply stopped quietly with a bemused expression straddled over the planks....would have been a very different story to a fixed fence.

The horse needs to listen to the rider, but must be trained to assess the issues for itself too.

 

[milliepops]

i think few of us grass root-ers are ever likely to have a horse THAT under the thumb tbh. We're probably all too inconsistent when it comes down to it.

I think I've paid the most attention to submission with my current dressage horse out of anything I've ever trained, but...... you wouldn't know it to look at her, sometimes, hahahaahahahah FWIW I think obedience = submission tbh, it's humans that understand submission as something negative but in the horse world i think it's just the same as a neutral expectation that you can ask the horse to respond in a way it's been trained each and every time.

in addition i don't think submission/obedience is the absence of independent thought. you are just expecting that the horse prioritises your thoughts over its own.

 

[Roxylola]

I think there is a difference between obedience and submission.....obedient I entirely agree, for modern xc courses is essential (mind you I much preferred riding the “proper xc courses” back in the old days of roads and tracks etc, rather than the glorified gymkhana courses these days!)

...however submission to me means waiting for the rider for every signal, and I think that is as dangerous...I remember watching Paul Schokomoler(sp.?) on Diester at Hickstead....he appeared to forget to tell the horse the takeoff spot for some planks, and the horse simply stopped quietly with a bemused expression straddled over the planks....would have been a very different story to a fixed fence.

The horse needs to listen to the rider, but must be trained to assess the issues for itself too.

Thats not what submission actually means though - its accepting the riders instructions when given rather than fighting about it

 

[quizzie]

Thats not what submission actually means though - its accepting the riders instructions when given rather than fighting about it

....I would beg to differ, I agree that is often how it is interpreted in the equine world, but it is a word that can all too easily be used alongside domination....often the phrase of “owning every stride” is used, and I am uncomfortable with that level of potentially forced control....
...I agree that there are many excellent riders who achieve a harmonious form of submission, but there are also many who achieve submission by more forceful means, and I have seen too many mentally shut down competition horses .... though I will say relatively few of them were eventers!

 

[DabDab]

Fwiw, I actually think (based on the videos posted on here), that she looks like she has improved a lot in the last year. So don't be too hard on yourself!

In terms of over-analysing the last few strides, it does naturally lessen when you (and horse) develop the consistency, because that's what allows everything to become more automatic. However, something I have always found useful (because I'm a terrible over-analyser) is reinforcing in my mind the fact that once you get within 2-3 strides of a fence, as a rider you can do nothing to make the situation better, only make it worse. Once you are that close to a fence, the canter is what it is and the stride is what it is, and all you can do is not get in the way, because if you try to change either of those things at that point you'll make it worse.

And for me (I don't know if you are the same), forcing myself to be nothing but a passenger in the last three strides makes me really focus on getting it right before I get to that point.

As an aside I do think Skylla looks tricky to ride around a set of showjumps. She looks like one of those few horses who really don't have a working canter - they have a natural medium canter that you have to spend a lot of time developing into a working canter. With that type of horse it is very much a judgement call how much you try to hold them together. Sometimes it is better to let them find a rhythm in their natural longer stride (using half halts mainly for straightness and to keep the backend engaged, rather than to shorten), until they develop a lot more strength to be able to hold a shorter stride without inverting their frame.

 

[milliepops]

I think it was me who first said the "S" word so I would like to firmly state I do not associate it with domination. Only got FEI dressage rules to hand, but the definition in there is

Submission does not mean subordination, but an obedience revealing its presence by a constant attention, willingness and confidence in the whole behaviour of the Horse as well as by the harmony, lightness and ease it is displaying in the execution of the different movements

and i think that applies broadly in jumping too.

 

[Rowreach]

....I would beg to differ, I agree that is often how it is interpreted in the equine world, but it is a word that can all too easily be used alongside domination....often the phrase of “owning every stride” is used, and I am uncomfortable with that level of potentially forced control....
...I agree that there are many excellent riders who achieve a harmonious form of submission, but there are also many who achieve submission by more forceful means, and I have seen too many mentally shut down competition horses .... though I will say relatively few of them were eventers!

When I started out, xc courses were big and gallopy and you needed a brave, forward horse. These days they are far more technical, and imo considerably more dangerous, especially if you have a horse that really has not nailed the basics.

Obviously a horse has its own brain, and you would hope that in any partnership both will help each other out where necessary, but the bottom line is that you have to have the sort of relationship where the rider (who is the one who has walked the course, seen the lines, worked out the alternatives and knows which fences you have to treat more technically than others) can place the horse where they want, in order for the horse to do its job of jumping the fence.

Frankly it terrifies me to see some of the combinations out there at grass roots level who probably need another year of training before riding xc competitively.

 

[IrishMilo]

I think it's literally just practice and repetition with positive experiences. I also think a lot of it is just your natural demeanour, i.e. are you generally a get on with it sort or more of a thinker?

Having a horse who makes it easy is helpful. It's a horrible feeling coming to a fence and thinking 'Is the little sh*t going to duck out at the last second?'.

I used a local eventer for a while and he did wonders for teaching to just get over the fear/excitement buzz and do it anyway. He was a terrible technical coach. Think, 'That was shit! Come round and do it again without messing up!' but that's the sort of style that seems to work best for me.

There are some fences that would look really daunting on some horses and some that make them look inviting.

My friend owns the most amazing horse who makes everything feel super easy. I think this fence was about 1.25 but he fills you with confidence and eliminates any 'Shit this is quite big!' jitters.

 

[quizzie]

I think it was me who first said the "S" word so I would like to firmly state I do not associate it with domination. Only got FEI dressage rules to hand, but the definition in there is


Submission does not mean subordination, but an obedience revealing its presence by a constant attention, willingness and confidence in the whole behaviour of the Horse as well as by the harmony, lightness and ease it is displaying in the execution of the different movements

and i think that applies broadly in jumping too.

I entirely agree with their definition of submission , but it is the wrong word to use to start with...see dictionary definition:

noun: submission

1. 1.
   the action of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.
   "they were forced into submission"