When is mentally damaged too damaged
- Thread starter Antw23uk
- Start date
LegOn
Well-Known Member
My previous horse, my first horse, the horse I learned to ride on who spent his entire life in a riding school and never saw a field in as many years as he was ridden - was completely shut down and I was told I was mad for buying him but he did exactly as you said, gave me back all my confidence after a bad accident and I just loved the bones of him.
After about 2/3 years, he finally trusted me, we had a bond - he minded me, taught me, tested me, and I did everything for him but until the day that I had to take the decision to put him to sleep - he was difficult to catch! I understand that feeling that they dont have a bond with you or dont trust you or all the other sad feelings we attach to the issue. I had trainers, communicators, behavioralists, experts, natural horsemanship, Monty Roberts - you name it, all visit him, work with him, do whatever to took to fix it... he just wasnt for playing ball. It was all on his terms, ALWAYS.
I had him for about 11 years. He was never turned out with other horses, he hated other horses aswell to be fair & either bullied or got bullied & it make him 100 times harder to catch!!! When he retired, I found individual turnout for him in retirement, to get his meds, his feed and enjoy his retirement years - it wasnt easy but I owed him that.
All I can add is, you cannot weigh up all he has given you, done for you, fixing your confidence etc with ONE thing, one thing he remains in control of - catching. Its tough but deal with it, do whatever it takes because those horses are worth it. He was worth his weight in gold and I wouldnt be the rider I am today without him. He deserved me just dealing with that one thing, and yes it was frustrating and yes it got me down from time to time but he was worth it. Thats all I can add really - appreciate what you have because those true schoolmasters, the ones who give you thing another horse cant, they are few and far between. He gave me the confidence to get my current horse but I wouldnt have been able to do without all he taught me.
After about 2/3 years, he finally trusted me, we had a bond - he minded me, taught me, tested me, and I did everything for him but until the day that I had to take the decision to put him to sleep - he was difficult to catch! I understand that feeling that they dont have a bond with you or dont trust you or all the other sad feelings we attach to the issue. I had trainers, communicators, behavioralists, experts, natural horsemanship, Monty Roberts - you name it, all visit him, work with him, do whatever to took to fix it... he just wasnt for playing ball. It was all on his terms, ALWAYS.
I had him for about 11 years. He was never turned out with other horses, he hated other horses aswell to be fair & either bullied or got bullied & it make him 100 times harder to catch!!! When he retired, I found individual turnout for him in retirement, to get his meds, his feed and enjoy his retirement years - it wasnt easy but I owed him that.
All I can add is, you cannot weigh up all he has given you, done for you, fixing your confidence etc with ONE thing, one thing he remains in control of - catching. Its tough but deal with it, do whatever it takes because those horses are worth it. He was worth his weight in gold and I wouldnt be the rider I am today without him. He deserved me just dealing with that one thing, and yes it was frustrating and yes it got me down from time to time but he was worth it. Thats all I can add really - appreciate what you have because those true schoolmasters, the ones who give you thing another horse cant, they are few and far between. He gave me the confidence to get my current horse but I wouldnt have been able to do without all he taught me.
Pinkvboots
Well-Known Member
I keep mine at home and I struggle in January and February everything is just hard work sometimes I really resent just doing the basic care for the horses but I know it will pass.
Don't be too hasty he sounds like a great horse and it has only been a year it took a good 2 years for Louis and me to really settle, I often thought omg wtf have I done but I love him so much now he will never go anywhere now.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Love.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
as someone who keeps horses at home alone, I feel your pain! This time of year can be SO tough. I made a vow never to make any big decisions in the winter/spring!
He really sounds like a lovely type, and a year is no time at all for a new horse to settle in. I get problem horses in that have been bounced from home to home, and some do stay very reserved for ages, but gradually open up in their own ways. It sound like at the moment you have low energy, and that you have a need for something to boost you and fill you up a bit, which is why you are feeling a lack of something from the horse at the moment. But maybe the horse shows he cares in different ways. Maybe your safe fun hacking time together is when you bond. And maybe him keeping you safe and trusting you is how he shows his bond with you. I've some horses and it's really in the ridden relationship you get the best connection, my favourite horse would literally tune out to me once I got off him and work finished!
Trouper
Well-Known Member
I have spent this last week looking out at the weather and thanking heaven that I don't have a horse to see to. As soon as the sun shines I will be back to envying everyone else who does.
You will get there with him - in the meantime we will be here cheering you on from the sidelines so you are not totally alone with it all!!
You will get there with him - in the meantime we will be here cheering you on from the sidelines so you are not totally alone with it all!!
maya2008
Well-Known Member
Give him time. If the catching issues are your worry (they would be mine!) then spend some money on a pro who specialises in that sort of thing and get it sorted. Beyond that, you seem to have found a horse who is perfect for you! Keep him, he will open up eventually. A year is not long. I would say stop worrying about pleasing him though. Just enjoy him - he needs to feel that you are the leader so he can trust you. Take him out and about, explore the world together and have fun. That will create more of a bond than you worrying about him all the time!
LadySam
Well-Known Member
I'm going to sandwich my questions between two realistic good news stories. Settle in. 
Story 1: Marty. One of my own ex-racehorses, came to me with the equine equivalent of PTSD from some bad experiences in his racing days. He was always well-mannered and kind with no dirt in him but likewise nervous and traumatised. It took about three years of reassuring handling and education for him to completely trust that nothing bad was going to happen to him with us. He had certain mental scars that he dealt with for the rest of his life, but as his confidence developed he learned how to handle those worries. He was never a carefree horse, but he was as happy as he was ever going to get, which was still pretty happy. We developed a great working relationship. He was a wonderful horse who always took care of his rider. Wouldn't have missed out on him for the world.
As you've no doubt got the message by now, a year is no time at all. If there are trauma related issues there for you to overcome, it's a long process that at times moves at a glacial pace. What positive steps have you been taking with him to get through this? What do you do with him apart from riding? What do you do to engage his brain apart from the same old routine? Someone else here mentioned clicker training, which is a good idea. Target training too, liberty work, any kind of ground work really, can help build stronger trust and connection. You've got the added motivation of solving the catching issue too, you could be working on two things at once. Do you have something like a round yard where you could do this? A space where he has to concentrate on you, short sessions, always ending on a positive note, rinse and repeat. It's a process, it can be a long one. Consistency is what gets through. Yeah, he might prefer to be left alone with horse company. So what, he's a horse. These kinds of sessions are no more than 20 mins out of his day before he can go back to eating grass.
My other question is - what are you like when you're around him? You've said he's making you miserable. Do you bring that to the yard when you interact with him? Horses can be so good at reading people, and the more sensitive the horse the better they are at it. It's not magical ESP woo woo stuff. It's because as prey animals they're hardwired to pick up on the smallest non-verbal and physical cues from the rest of the herd to ensure their safety. This carries over to people as well, and as humans we're not always fully aware of what we're putting out there for them to pick up and respond to. Or we don't credit horses with enough ability to pick up on our (at the risk of sounding woo woo) 'vibe'. They will. Be conscious of your energy and body language around him. Only bring him the good stuff.
Story 2: Bazaconi. OMG, what a damaged thing he was, physically and mentally. I met him when I was working RoR. He used to faint - literally faint, fall unconscious to the ground - when he was saddled up. Scott, our head trainer, took him on and nobody else was to touch him. Baz' story is huge (Scott has written a book about him) but with the kind of work I described above, he went from this:
No saddle, no bridle, just me and the horse at liberty in the round yard. Baz wanted nothing to do with it, he galloped out of control around the yard, often to the point where I feared he would fall over disunited in his canter/gallop or completely on the wrong lead, head turned as far away for me as he could get. At one end of the round yard he could see the race track, and here he would accelerate sometimes with his tail tucked between his legs. Just me standing in the yard was way too much for Baz to cope with... the idea is to place pressure on the horse, keep him moving and each time he faces you, let the pressure off, however with Baz so fired up and galloping so hard, this wasn’t going to work. The potential for him to hurt himself was too great. I took a milk crate and sat on it in the middle of the round yard and just let Baz go... Baz went around and around and around, rarely changing direction. For a week or more all I could do was take him into the round yard and sit on my milk crate while he burnt off steam. In the early sessions I would have to bring him out before he ran himself into the ground. He didn’t seem to have any respect for fatigue and I was sure he would do himself damage if I let him go until he could go no more.
To this:
One day in the round yard Baz just stopped. It was like that scene out of the movie Forrest Gump when Forrest after running for years just stops, for no apparent reason he has just finished running. Baz looked out at the race track, looked back at me sitting in the sun on my milk create covered in flies, walked straight to me and stood quietly in front of me. Sounds a bit like a scene out of some corny horse movie, like he had made a decision, was it to be racing or me, he chose me. Yeah, that’s a bit corny but he finally stopped. I stood up, put his halter on and took him straight from the yard, that day he stood more quietly in the wash bay. The next day he galloped for two laps and came straight to me. He had worked out that he didn’t need to gallop, there was nothing to fear and nothing to be gained, he had learnt that by coming to me he could stop and I would take him out. Finally, some sort of mutual connection. Yes, there was something in it for him, but he wanted to be with me. Now we could really start to work.
To today. Baz is a star therapy horse, doing important work with returned military, police and other first responders suffering from serious PTSD and flow on issues. And it's not just 'stand there and pat the nice horsey' type therapy. This is behavioural work, with damaged people learning to communicate by training damaged horses and healing their lives in the process.
One soldier down, six more to go. I decided I would use Bazaconi for all of them. Yes he knew the game better and better with each soldier, and he penalised them if they got it wrong, but he rewarded them generously if they got it right. Just like a good horse trainer, Bazaconi had learnt well how to train his humans. Every one of the soldiers got a good join up by the end of the session and Baz seemed to love it at the end of each job as he got real love from someone who felt they had made a real connection with another creature. Some soldiers had not had this connection since they had returned from their armed service. Wow, they were all beaming. What a great start to the week. Baz was a star.
(There's been a documentary made about it called "The Healing". Google it, Baz and Scott are featured in the trailer.) But it took years. About a year after Baz turned up we took him to his first dressage test with his current owner (enter at A, halt at X. Tank off, leave rider at X, exit arena at M) where he still had a long way to go. But he got there. A year really is nothing. If Baz could go from mental case dog meat to star therapy horse, I'm sure it's possible for your boy to cheer up and be be more present and engaged with you. If you do the work.
Story 1: Marty. One of my own ex-racehorses, came to me with the equine equivalent of PTSD from some bad experiences in his racing days. He was always well-mannered and kind with no dirt in him but likewise nervous and traumatised. It took about three years of reassuring handling and education for him to completely trust that nothing bad was going to happen to him with us. He had certain mental scars that he dealt with for the rest of his life, but as his confidence developed he learned how to handle those worries. He was never a carefree horse, but he was as happy as he was ever going to get, which was still pretty happy. We developed a great working relationship. He was a wonderful horse who always took care of his rider. Wouldn't have missed out on him for the world.
As you've no doubt got the message by now, a year is no time at all. If there are trauma related issues there for you to overcome, it's a long process that at times moves at a glacial pace. What positive steps have you been taking with him to get through this? What do you do with him apart from riding? What do you do to engage his brain apart from the same old routine? Someone else here mentioned clicker training, which is a good idea. Target training too, liberty work, any kind of ground work really, can help build stronger trust and connection. You've got the added motivation of solving the catching issue too, you could be working on two things at once. Do you have something like a round yard where you could do this? A space where he has to concentrate on you, short sessions, always ending on a positive note, rinse and repeat. It's a process, it can be a long one. Consistency is what gets through. Yeah, he might prefer to be left alone with horse company. So what, he's a horse. These kinds of sessions are no more than 20 mins out of his day before he can go back to eating grass.
My other question is - what are you like when you're around him? You've said he's making you miserable. Do you bring that to the yard when you interact with him? Horses can be so good at reading people, and the more sensitive the horse the better they are at it. It's not magical ESP woo woo stuff. It's because as prey animals they're hardwired to pick up on the smallest non-verbal and physical cues from the rest of the herd to ensure their safety. This carries over to people as well, and as humans we're not always fully aware of what we're putting out there for them to pick up and respond to. Or we don't credit horses with enough ability to pick up on our (at the risk of sounding woo woo) 'vibe'. They will. Be conscious of your energy and body language around him. Only bring him the good stuff.
Story 2: Bazaconi. OMG, what a damaged thing he was, physically and mentally. I met him when I was working RoR. He used to faint - literally faint, fall unconscious to the ground - when he was saddled up. Scott, our head trainer, took him on and nobody else was to touch him. Baz' story is huge (Scott has written a book about him) but with the kind of work I described above, he went from this:
No saddle, no bridle, just me and the horse at liberty in the round yard. Baz wanted nothing to do with it, he galloped out of control around the yard, often to the point where I feared he would fall over disunited in his canter/gallop or completely on the wrong lead, head turned as far away for me as he could get. At one end of the round yard he could see the race track, and here he would accelerate sometimes with his tail tucked between his legs. Just me standing in the yard was way too much for Baz to cope with... the idea is to place pressure on the horse, keep him moving and each time he faces you, let the pressure off, however with Baz so fired up and galloping so hard, this wasn’t going to work. The potential for him to hurt himself was too great. I took a milk crate and sat on it in the middle of the round yard and just let Baz go... Baz went around and around and around, rarely changing direction. For a week or more all I could do was take him into the round yard and sit on my milk crate while he burnt off steam. In the early sessions I would have to bring him out before he ran himself into the ground. He didn’t seem to have any respect for fatigue and I was sure he would do himself damage if I let him go until he could go no more.
To this:
One day in the round yard Baz just stopped. It was like that scene out of the movie Forrest Gump when Forrest after running for years just stops, for no apparent reason he has just finished running. Baz looked out at the race track, looked back at me sitting in the sun on my milk create covered in flies, walked straight to me and stood quietly in front of me. Sounds a bit like a scene out of some corny horse movie, like he had made a decision, was it to be racing or me, he chose me. Yeah, that’s a bit corny but he finally stopped. I stood up, put his halter on and took him straight from the yard, that day he stood more quietly in the wash bay. The next day he galloped for two laps and came straight to me. He had worked out that he didn’t need to gallop, there was nothing to fear and nothing to be gained, he had learnt that by coming to me he could stop and I would take him out. Finally, some sort of mutual connection. Yes, there was something in it for him, but he wanted to be with me. Now we could really start to work.
To today. Baz is a star therapy horse, doing important work with returned military, police and other first responders suffering from serious PTSD and flow on issues. And it's not just 'stand there and pat the nice horsey' type therapy. This is behavioural work, with damaged people learning to communicate by training damaged horses and healing their lives in the process.
One soldier down, six more to go. I decided I would use Bazaconi for all of them. Yes he knew the game better and better with each soldier, and he penalised them if they got it wrong, but he rewarded them generously if they got it right. Just like a good horse trainer, Bazaconi had learnt well how to train his humans. Every one of the soldiers got a good join up by the end of the session and Baz seemed to love it at the end of each job as he got real love from someone who felt they had made a real connection with another creature. Some soldiers had not had this connection since they had returned from their armed service. Wow, they were all beaming. What a great start to the week. Baz was a star.
(There's been a documentary made about it called "The Healing". Google it, Baz and Scott are featured in the trailer.) But it took years. About a year after Baz turned up we took him to his first dressage test with his current owner (enter at A, halt at X. Tank off, leave rider at X, exit arena at M) where he still had a long way to go. But he got there. A year really is nothing. If Baz could go from mental case dog meat to star therapy horse, I'm sure it's possible for your boy to cheer up and be be more present and engaged with you. If you do the work.
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fawaz
Well-Known Member
Maybe try some natural horsemanship style bonding exercises? (I am not a tree hugging natural horsemanship fanatic but some of the basic principles are very much useful and I prefer to call it common sense horsemanship).
I have a mare who was very much the other way, lived a wild and free life till I brought her as a 3 year old out of the paddock and took her away from her large family herd which she had been in since she was born on 5000 acres... and she hated and resented me for it.
She didn't want anything to do with me and I couldn't catch her for the first two weeks, I did lots of work in the round yard getting her to face up and come in to me, trust exercises etc. and one day she just got it (maybe a year and half in) and realised that I was her person and she wanted to be with me and do fun things.
I took her for so many walks and just wandered around picking grass with her, feeding treats when she did things I asked or liked and did no pressure things that had absolutely nothing in them for me but lots to gain for her (food, praise, reinforcement).
Now she canters over neighing when she seems me (5 years on) and can't wait for me to get her out to do things, I can't even believe this is the same horse I picked up all that time ago.
I have a mare who was very much the other way, lived a wild and free life till I brought her as a 3 year old out of the paddock and took her away from her large family herd which she had been in since she was born on 5000 acres... and she hated and resented me for it.
She didn't want anything to do with me and I couldn't catch her for the first two weeks, I did lots of work in the round yard getting her to face up and come in to me, trust exercises etc. and one day she just got it (maybe a year and half in) and realised that I was her person and she wanted to be with me and do fun things.
I took her for so many walks and just wandered around picking grass with her, feeding treats when she did things I asked or liked and did no pressure things that had absolutely nothing in them for me but lots to gain for her (food, praise, reinforcement).
Now she canters over neighing when she seems me (5 years on) and can't wait for me to get her out to do things, I can't even believe this is the same horse I picked up all that time ago.
Berpisc
Well-Known Member
Well there is one massive advantage your horse has, and that is you, who are big enough a person to take on board the replies on this thread and kind enough to bother about this horse. That is a great advantage and hopefully though some comments come across quite blunt, they have helped you look at things from differing perspectives. Keep buggering on
. It can feel very isolating at times though.I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
My old boy was very shut down and aggressive when he came. His reaction was to get you before you got him. I dont blame him one bit. I sorted his pain issues out first and then did lots of clicker training. I think I was the first person to ever devote huge amounts of time to him not asking him to do anything unpleasant or hard. It took a while but once he started coming round he seemed to make the decision that he was ok and let go. It still took a lot of work but I can still remember the feeling of him deciding to work with me. I've never had a relationship with an animal the way I do with him. He now loves a friends little boy and happily marches round the village doing pony rides with him carrying him like hes made of glass. Not something I thought would ever happen!
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I have nothing to add to what everyone else has already said. Please don't take this the wrong way OP, but if you do ever decide to move him on or loan him out I would bite your hand off for him
I wish you the best of luck with whichever route you choose to take, he sounds like a gem who just needs a little time and consistency in training
I wish you the best of luck with whichever route you choose to take, he sounds like a gem who just needs a little time and consistency in training
Antw23uk
Well-Known Member
Thank you all so much and @LadySam I really appreciate your reply and how long it must have taken you to respond. I will certainly look them up.
I managed to get home early (on time!) last night so went straight to the stables and herded him on to the yard, into a headcollar and stabled for a good groom and a 30 minute massage pad (equilibrium i think?) and once he's in he really enjoys the fuss. Im going to do less thinking, more doing and when the spring arrives and the ground isnt so wet im going to bring in some help for groundwork and crack on with enjoying him and keeping him happy.
I managed to get home early (on time!) last night so went straight to the stables and herded him on to the yard, into a headcollar and stabled for a good groom and a 30 minute massage pad (equilibrium i think?) and once he's in he really enjoys the fuss. Im going to do less thinking, more doing and when the spring arrives and the ground isnt so wet im going to bring in some help for groundwork and crack on with enjoying him and keeping him happy.
Tarragon
Well-Known Member
Onwards and upwards
Trouper
Well-Known Member
Great!!
The Fuzzy Furry
Getting old disgracefully
Excellent update x
alexomahony
Well-Known Member
This might ramble a bit so bear with me.
I've owned my horse for a little over a year, he's a big strapping 13yr old ID from Ireland and his history is unknown. He is very sensitive and was very shutdown when I got him (we think possibly ex hirling!)
On the outside he can be very stoic with perfect manners and a very safe, nice ride (mainly hacking, he has an easy life with me) and he makes me feel safe and gave me my confidence back after a few bad falls on a previous horse! I've always said that we very much found each other just when we both needed a break in life. He is what he is, he's a sensitive tit but he's very kind and there is no malice but you get the overwhelming impression that life has not been kind to him and he is very much a 'glass half empty' kinda boy and always assumes the worst will happen. To me its pretty obvious he's had a few beatings in his life from his reaction to certain things.
I've thrown everything at this horse to make him feel good, look good and be happy and comfortable but nothing seems to work in my favour and I feel he'd rather just be left alone. The only thing I wont do for him is put him in a large field with other horses because quiet frankly, I would NEVER see or touch him EVER again! He can be a bugger to catch and gets himself in such a tiz because he assumes im going to beat him for not being caught and it becomes this vicious cycle!
Recently, I sent a hair sample to a lady who does this 'reading' thing and after she had looked at his pic and waved a crystal over his mane hair, she gave me a call to talk about what she found out about him. Yes a bit wacky and not my usual thing but she came highly recommended from equestrians more professional than me, so I thought worth a go. Now this woman was spot on about this horse, she described him down to a T and she knew things about him physically she simply couldn't have known, that my horse had 'told her'. Honestly I don't take things like this seriously but she was so spot on it had me in tears. (FYI this post isn't for you to tell me your a believer or not) essentially he is happy with me but very emotionally blocked and always assumes anything good will end and he is resigned to the fact he will be moved on again so no point trusting anyone ... there was a lot more mentally but you get the idea. The physical things she described were too spot on, it was very weird!
This horse is damaged, much more than I ever thought and its because of his well natured, good mannered stoic character that he has put up with life and probably been passed from pillar to post. I love him but honestly I'm not really feeling the love right now and its breaking my heart. I want what's best for him but he is making me miserable with his lack of trust, being unable to catch him and his emotional outlook on life being so doom and gloom.
So, hating myself for thinking he will be right, and that I will be yet another face in his life that didn't last, I am thinking about moving him on. I feel like giving up on him! I wont sell him, I owe him a secure future so I am thinking a loan or even maybe just sending him to a nice retirement place to live out his days in a herd in a big field .. anything to make him happy and make me feel less miserable!
Does anyone else have emotionally damaged equines? any come good stories? I suppose I'm dreaming of the day I turn up and he calls from across the field and comes over knowing he is loved ....... Disney Fairy-tale ending inserted here!
My little Irish horse was like this when he came to me about 7 years ago, machine like, polite and shut down.
I turned him out with my very unlike this Welsh D, who I believe taught him how to be a horse again. He did turn quite naughty to begin with - but we’ve since found a happy medium where he feels safe to disagree if he wants too and he knows I’ll still be there when we go somewhere.
it took a good few years but I believe now he is much happier in himself - he does have flashes when he goes back to how he was and in he is very fearful of new people in his space (vets, physios, dentists etc)
If there’s nothing physically causing him pain, I think you should continue on with and I think eventually you’ll be heavily rewarded with a horse who loves you more than you could ever believe xx
lme
Well-Known Member
It might just be who he is. One of my homebred horses (who is much loved and has never been roughly treated) prefers to have minimal human interaction, unless the humans are there to feed her or entertain her (she loved her work when younger, but was all business). Now happily retired, she is mostly feral.