When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

[FanyDuChamp]

I think I must be fortunate then, I've never been attacked by a horse.

Very often we are the architects of our own mis fortune when people get into these sort of situations.

We REALLY need a "like" button. You really talk some good sense Andy.
FDC

 

[Tnavas]

NEVER. I have a horse that has been badly abused and will never quite be always able to be the trusting loving horse that he is underneath. Physical abuse is never acceptable. Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?

FDC

Because when it suits they would be the first to abuse your trust - you see this everyday when a novice rider gets their first horse, or the cunning riding school pony susses out the rider is a little nervous.

Don't EVER underestimate the power and reactions of a horse or pony.

 

[ngrace]

This has become very 'holier than thou'..

And Fany Du Champ ''Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?''
Not sure if you missed previous posts, but I think thats the point alot of people have made, the horse has chosen to hurt them.

 

[Hollycatt]

NEVER. I have a horse that has been badly abused and will never quite be always able to be the trusting loving horse that he is underneath. Physical abuse is never acceptable. Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?

FDC

The point is when they DO chose to hurt you. Maybe what they are doing would not hurt another horse too much, but it could kill a human. There is a big difference between a frightened, abused horse and one that has made a decision to test the water and take the upper hand.

 

[AndySpooner]

So, for those of you that would NEVER hit a horse here is a scenario and I would be interested to know what you would do in the situation.

You take in a big solid warmblood mare for the owner who has had a car accident. The chap who transports the horse to you warns you that it has a reputation for being nasty. Livery is turn out with feed.
You turn the horse out with two other mares and later go to feed all three in the field. As you get to the gate the new mare charges the gate, ears flat back meaning to get you. There is no way she is going to let you get into that field although you could give her her feed at the gate and clamber over the fence to fed the other two but, what if she leaves her feed to come get you?

What would you do in this situation? This mare was not just threatening but meaning business and had she made contact she would have done serious damage.

I don't feed lose horses in fields. Ours are always brought in to feed. I had 30 riding horses and when we were feeding them they all came in to be fed. A lot of scenario's like you describe are just common sense really. Of course horses will sqwabble over feed and if you don't have the 'horse sense' not to let it happen or try and sort it when it has, then you are asking to get hurt.

 

[Cindygirl]

Hi
Dont reply on this site very often but just had to in this topic.
I have only truly hit one horse in my life and having backed young horses for more than 25 years I think that is not to bad. It was a heavy weight 6 year old cob that I had backed 5 weeks previously & all was going well but I had a different handler 1 day while I mounted and this mare decided to try & kill the man who was holding her after I got on, que me reversing my hold on my whip & really cracking the horse but only once & it never done anything like it again. Actually went on to be a wonderful RDA horse.
For all those people thaat say they are lucky enough not to belive horses wont attack can I just ask why I have spgnificant scaring on my face & right shoulder after being attacked by two very well treated ownwd from foal horses that decided to try to treat me like a non dominant herd member by grabing me by any available surface, pulling me down & trying to stamp on me. This happened when I was 8 & 10 and wasnt annoying the horses in any way I was just walking past their stables quietly. These 2 horses did nt just do this to me it was recurring with not only children but adults as well.

 

[LBertie Wooster]

I have a TB which is scared s***less of schooling/ lunging whips this I believe is beacause he has been beaten at somepoint in the past...
He launched himself at my mums cob this morning when fetching in,bit him very hard and went to launch again, to which said cob had dashed backwards in such alarm, TB then reared several times in my FACE to which i was almost landed on, he got a vry shard wack on the neck with end on leadrope several times.
TB will prance around on roads and riding forward will usually stop but odd occasions this wont help to the point where he decided he was going to jump infront of an oncoming car, this he got smacked V hard. IMO, when i smack him when he wont come off leg or being little sod and doing his prancing, I will pat him afterwords to let him know he has done what I ask.
Said Cob wwill take the piss out of anyone who lets him get away with things more than twice, so he has been wolloped once to be put back in box as friend put it...
Both our horses have full trust and confidence in me, mum, and v good friend who is v knowledgeable. For those who say they would NEVER hit a horse has obvs not had a 17.2 chunky fully fit EX eventer doing vertical bucks at point of going over or been very nearly hit by car due to horse broncing across road.

Every horse is diffrent and needs handling/ treating diffrently. Each to their own.

 

[FanyDuChamp]

Because when it suits they would be the first to abuse your trust - you see this everyday when a novice rider gets their first horse, or the cunning riding school pony susses out the rider is a little nervous.

Don't EVER underestimate the power and reactions of a horse or pony.

I don't but trust is a 2 way street, he trusts us to take care of him, protect him from hurt. In return we expect respect. We get it. He is a horse that will happily take the p*ss if allowed, but is happiest with strong, firm but loving leadership.

I never said my horse was not told off, he is. We had our mare tied up outside our gelding's stable he lunged at her, my daughter drove him back with her voice, he does not like being driven off, so refrains from the behaviour that separates him from us, he has never done it again. There is more than one way to skin a cat, violence is not the only way to go. Like my daughter always says, you have to make a horse want to be with you, to trust you then when their behaviour is unacceptable you let them know, through body language not violence. The punishment is temporary banishment ( only a couple of minutes).

When we bought him he was so aggressive professional grooms were afraid of him.It took 4 people to lead him down the yard and it was a very brave person who entered his stable. He was aggressive because he refused to be beaten any longer, he had basically said enough is enough.

So what do we do? Continue hitting him, he is 17-2hh, was incredibly fit ( had been a comp. horse) and was quite happy to fight his corner. He used to strike incredibly fast with teeth, rear, spin and try to double barrel you.

We could have gone in with whips, beaten him but others had tried that and not succeeded. So we changed our way of dealing with him, he now knows where the boundaries are and what is unacceptable, it has taken over 3 years but he is a different horse. Happier, calmer and considerably less aggressive. He'll never be truly trustworthy because he has the memories and will still flinch when someone new moves too close or too quickly near him. But the difference is incredible, and all without violence.

FDC

 

[AndySpooner]

Hi
Dont reply on this site very often but just had to in this topic.
I have only truly hit one horse in my life and having backed young horses for more than 25 years I think that is not to bad. It was a heavy weight 6 year old cob that I had backed 5 weeks previously & all was going well but I had a different handler 1 day while I mounted and this mare decided to try & kill the man who was holding her after I got on, que me reversing my hold on my whip & really cracking the horse but only once & it never done anything like it again. Actually went on to be a wonderful RDA horse.
For all those people thaat say they are lucky enough not to belive horses wont attack can I just ask why I have spgnificant scaring on my face & right shoulder after being attacked by two very well treated ownwd from foal horses that decided to try to treat me like a non dominant herd member by grabing me by any available surface, pulling me down & trying to stamp on me. This happened when I was 8 & 10 and wasnt annoying the horses in any way I was just walking past their stables quietly. These 2 horses did nt just do this to me it was recurring with not only children but adults as well.

I really don't think anyone honestly believes that there aren't times when horses try it on, horses attacking people though is not very common, not to say it doesn't or won't happen.

If a horse is really out to get you, I think that you've probably had it, if you think a stick or whip or whatever has saved you, the horse probably wasn't that serious. Apart from the size, horses react about 10 times faster than people do and so it's all over before you know whats happened.

A lot of stuff horses do people mis read, I had a hunter once who used to pick walkers up by the shoulder and give them a shake, people said he was dangerous, all he was doing was looking for sandwich's, a walker had fed him one once, once that s all it took.

If you think hitting a horse trains it, it doesn't, they just don't think like that.

A lot of people are just a little bit nervous or frightened around horses, if a stick helps you deal with that, ok. Others act the real tough guy round them, lots of bravado, and micro management, you know the one who holds the lead rope by the clip. Others have whips because thats how they were taught as a child, so it must be right.

I don't use a whip or crop, my choice, my horses.

 

[FanyDuChamp]

This has become very 'holier than thou'..

And Fany Du Champ ''Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?''
Not sure if you missed previous posts, but I think thats the point alot of people have made, the horse has chosen to hurt them.

What I was trying to say, and maybe did not express myself well enough, is that I feel that when you resort to hitting you are getting into a p*ssing contest you simply cannot win. They are bigger , stronger and faster than humans, so imho psychology has to be used rather than force.

I certainly do not want to appear "holier than thou" I don't pretend to know everything, I certainly don't. But I know what has worked with my formerly extremely aggressive horse, and was speaking from that standpoint.

FDC

 

[FanyDuChamp]

I used to think you talked sense, but after that statement I realise how wrong i was. oh deary deary me. how sad.

Well each to their own opinion.
FDC

 

[LBertie Wooster]

Never.

Not even if it stuck 2 fingers up at you and ment to deck you/ kill you? you would never see a reason to maybe put your mark down if you let it get away with something and it had taken an inch everytime?

 

[Dobiegirl]

After reading this thread Ive realised there are people who live in the real world and people who live in fluffy bunny land.

My last horse was never smacked if he was naughty you just had to blow a rasberry at him and he was mortified. His previous owner had done this with him since a weaned foal and it worked for him. In the past Ive worked with some nasty horses one who was a very successful show hunter. In one season he had six grooms who had all left because he terrified them. I was groom no 7 and he certainly did his upmost to get me when ever he could. He would double barrel you if he could or squash you against the wall, you certainly needed your wits about you. At shows after his class if he was going in the working hunters I needed to get in the back of the lorry with him to change his studs. The minute you stepped in with him he would start and so a good whack from me kept him quiet enough for me to do my job. He was a TB and his sire was nasty and his grandsire kicked his stable door in the night before he won the Derby. But with a lot of these horses its not genetic its people who prat around them and allow them to get away with murder. They get passed on and the process repeats itself.

 

[AndySpooner]

After reading this thread Ive realised there are people who live in the real world and people who live in fluffy bunny land.

My last horse was never smacked if he was naughty you just had to blow a rasberry at him and he was mortified. His previous owner had done this with him since a weaned foal and it worked for him. In the past Ive worked with some nasty horses one who was a very successful show hunter. In one season he had six grooms who had all left because he terrified them. I was groom no 7 and he certainly did his upmost to get me when ever he could. He would double barrel you if he could or squash you against the wall, you certainly needed your wits about you. At shows after his class if he was going in the working hunters I needed to get in the back of the lorry with him to change his studs. The minute you stepped in with him he would start and so a good whack from me kept him quiet enough for me to do my job. He was a TB and his sire was nasty and his grandsire kicked his stable door in the night before he won the Derby. But with a lot of these horses its not genetic its people who prat around them and allow them to get away with murder. They get passed on and the process repeats itself.

Sounds like this horse certainly thought you were a 'fluffy bunny' because he had very little respect for you despite the 'good whack's' he kept getting. But, you are right it is the people who prat around with them that allow this sort of behaviour.

 

[AndySpooner]

Not even if it stuck 2 fingers up at you and ment to deck you/ kill you? you would never see a reason to maybe put your mark down if you let it get away with something and it had taken an inch everytime?

No, there are more intelligent ways to deal with this sort of stuff, and once you've sorted it properly, it doesn't keep happening.

 

[LBertie Wooster]

No, there are more intelligent ways to deal with this sort of stuff, and once you've sorted it properly, it doesn't keep happening.

i do totally agree with you on this. I do't think it helps that where I came from Said Cob was little s**t and people where rather whips solve problems. I will say this, since I'ne had said TB I have completly changed my way of thinking.
Well like I've said, each to their own. Everybody has their own ways of dealing with things and I believe it also dpends on how you have ben taught to deal with problems...

 

[Enfys]

Mine is a QH and as sharpe as a razer, She can gallop from a standing start and stop from a gallop.

All horses can do that regardless of their breed, just watch a group at play in a field

 

[shortstuff99]

I am not a bunny hugger but neither am I on the side of smacking horses. I don't claim to have a vast knowledge of horse psychology but I do have knowledge of general herd behaviour (I am a Zoologist). I find that moving a horse out of your personal space can be the best form of showing a horse dominance. My mare is a very powerful cob she is the alpha mare of her herd, her way of trying to dominate you is to get in your personal space. This tends to be what horses react to in the field. The dominate horse can get in the subordinates personal space and move them this shows dominence. If the horse doesn't move fast enough then more sharper methods are used.

What I'm trying to say is that horse will move into your space whil grooming etc and subtly alter your position, this is them proving dominence over you. I find if you stand your ground and 'push' (not smack) the horse out of your space they soon realise they can't dominate you and stop pushing. I feel that alot of aggression and naughtiness stems from this.

However if it is a life threatening situation I would react in whatever way my adrenaline tells me! But that is just my oppinnion and everyone is entitled to their own

 

[AndySpooner]

All horses can do that regardless of their breed, just watch a group at play in a field

I'm talking about riding her,lol.

 

[Enfys]

I'm talking about riding her,lol.[/QUOTE

Cowboy stuff eh?

 

[Clippy]

I think it's foolish to declare you'd NEVER hit a horse.

Ok, horses are generally a non violent animal with only the odd exception, but what about incidents, say, where you're bringing one in from the field and another tries to barge past, or other situations which arise and a sharp slap can prevent an accident

 

[AndySpooner]

I think it's foolish to declare you'd NEVER hit a horse.

Ok, horses are generally a non violent animal with only the odd exception, but what about incidents, say, where you're bringing one in from the field and another tries to barge past, or other situations which arise and a sharp slap can prevent an accident

Oh really, just have to take your word on that, lol.

 

[StrawberryFish]

When on my old warmblood with him on 2 legs reversing towards a ditch with me on board. We got a sharp smack on the bum and as much as I don't like walloping horses, in that situation it was to save us from VERY serious injuries, it wasn't a conscious decision but an instinctive 'oh ****, we're gonna die, stop ****ing rearing and GO FORWARDS'

 

[c2b]

I work on the never say never principle lol

In 6 years I have only smacked my mare once. Similar scenario to StrawberryFish. Walking alongside a river. Mare starts backing up and not listening to my leg. A swift smack on her bum to send her forwards before we both ended up in the river. I would do so again in similar circumstances if it was needed.

When I got her I couldn't even let her see a crop or she would go mental. Just lifting my hand off the reins to thank passing cars sent her in a frenzy. Now I can carry a crop and always do so but use it for wafting flies off more than anything.

 

[annaellie]

Yes I have in the past and would do if needed. I was bought at 14 a 15.2 tb mare who bronced the rider off but rather than stopping or running away continued to bronc and had no care for the rider underneath. This went in for roughly 18 months I was a bag of nerves and was on the verge of giving up I was very lucky I was never badly hurt.
I was riding her in the jumping paddock she was going lovely then all of a sudden I felt her back arch and bam off she went. I fell and was winded I thought I was flippen dying
When I got my breath back I seen red and lost it with her and give her some hard cracks that did leave marks on her
I felt so guilty but she never done it again to me and from that day on was amazing
When I went to college she came with me I explained to them what she used to do yard m was quite adamant her higher students would manage her. She lasted a week before doing toba girl what she used to do to me and damaging her back and fracturing her pelvis I had her till she was pts and never had a problem again

Another horse I had who was a 17.2 and quite frankly dangerous when bought I only hit him once and that made himm worse he took a long patience route and was put in place by your voice but hit him and he would attack you

I think it depends on the horse and situation but I would never rule it out if it's for saftey off myself, horse or others around

 

[tallyho!]

Yes Enfys, I would and I do.

 

[hollyandivy123]

ok i bit a horse once...............he was mine and was going through a young biting phase, he conected with my arm, (ended up with a mouth shaped haematoma, to give an indication of the force) i turned round, got hold of his nose and bit him on the nostril. he jumped back with a look of what humans don't do that and he never bit anyone or me again, it didn't make he head shy or anything. the boundries were re-set. by the way he was molting at the time a trust me a mouth full of hair is yuk.

i think every situation is different, yes i have hit a horse, but only when the situation needed it, shying into the road, reversing into cars. i don't believe in thrashing a horse, but that is just my own point of view.

 

[SarahWeston]

What worries me here is how many people go from 0 - 60 in a milisecond. From shouting to hitting. Neither of these things make sense to horses. The first doesn't tell them what they ought to be doing (they just don't understand words) and the second doesn't tell them what they ought to have done.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm still wondering why the no-whip-in-my-yard people think it is better, from some of these posts, to take years to get a horse trained "properly" than it is to ever use a whip.

With a horse that came to me scared of whips, I would carry a whip everywhere with me. Whenever I handled that horse I would have a whip there, with food, with strokes, with every good thing that happens to it. Or as close as you could get the whip at the time. It would eat and drink from a bucket with a whip in it. Quite quickly it would reach a stage where I could touch the horse with the whip and then stroke it all over with it. Eventually I would stand with it and pull the whip out sharply and wave it at it quite violently without touching it, giving it food or reassurance each time until it stopped reacting excessively. Leaving a horse so that it quivers and jumps when it sees a whip near it is completely unacceptable, to me.


You have no idea what will happen to you in the future, or where your horse might end up. It is not fair to throw whips out of your yard, and leave the horse scared of them. It is only fair to habituate it to them.

If I could cure, as I did, a horse of a lifelong fear of bridges, and whips, by hitting it once and riding it over a bridge, can anyone tell me the sense in taking even half an hour to persuade that horse in a "nicer" fashion to go over that bridge and remain scared of whips? 29 and a 1/2 more minutes of unhappiness for the horse, surely?

Andy if you think an Arab and a Quarter Horse give you the experience to tell all of us that we are wrong to ever use a whip, that's your prerogative, but I suspect you inadvertently caused more than just me to spit our cornflakes out with laughter.

 

[MrsElle]

I have been reading this thread open mouthed.

I am a total novice, had lessons as a child and decided to get a horse three years ago. Two years ago I got Blue, then aged 20 months as I am a wimp and wanted something un-spoiled and knew the history of. I knew nothing about having a youngster. Blue was bargy, in your face and stubborn. His worst thing was walking straight through you, pushing out of the way which did put me and other half on our backsides several times. Blue thought he was the herd leader and needed to be shown otherwise. Shouts and the odd slap would usually do it but occasionaly he has needed a good wallop when he has put me at risk, his favourite trick used to be to pin me against the fence and me saying 'nice pony, please move away as you are crushing me' wasn't going to make him move! I took a crop into the field with me for a while and if he got too close he got a slap accross the chest - not too hard but enough to make him stop and think. That worked wonders, although he is quite a dominate pony and he does need reminding again from time to time.

I have now got a little welsh filly who was about 18 months when I got her. She is an angel, never steps out of line, very respectful of space and is so easy in every way - the total opposite of Blue!

Perhaps those people who have never walloped a horse have been extremely lucky and had horses like my lovely Lola - I challenge those people to come and deal with Blue when he is 'on one' with words. I will have the ambulance service on standby!