When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

[tallyho!]

Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.

I do see where you are coming from AndyS, however, having worked on a stud many moons ago with many stallions I can't see that this has any bearing and certainly is not true as this stallion HAS a behavioural issue.

Your statement is true but this is also applies: People very often are shaped by thier own misfortune.

There were three stallions on this particular yard. All were treated with the same love and respect however, one was just that bit more "special". The special kind where you would close all top doors of other stables if he were to walk past, you walked with a stick visible to him and you did things very systematically. If you deviated and he spotted a gap, he'd either be killing you or beating a door down to get to a mare/stallion. I've witnessed a stallion fight and had to break it up. That's correct - my tiny friend and I had to break it up on our OWN! Blood was everywhere. I don't think even Pat Parelli nor Monty Roberts would have been in there without whips in both hands!!! Sod horsewhispering!!! I bet they would have done WHATEVER necessary.

In the stable & in the field he was a gent and you could pet him for hours just like the other two.

They ALL received the same affection except for the black one during moving him.

Before the KIA's come down on me saying "duh what were the stallions doing in together??" well DUH accidents happen. That's life. Deal with it.

 

[amandap]

Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.

I agree! It seems stallions are sometimes kept in isolation and in a dark small box! Imo there is no wonder some have turned aggressive and humans should have more sense than to put themselves in danger of a known aggressive horse I'm afraid. Human's have to take responsibility for this and NOT blame the stallon. Keeping horses in ways that are so far from their natural life style is something I think should be seriously addressed. Their physical and mental health is clearly suffering and this is then compounded by humans having to resort to violence to protect themselves when dealing with these horses... erm who is the 'winner' in this senario? It's just total madness imo.

Surely locking them alone in a dark stall for long periods (years in some cases I believe) is exposing them to acute sensory deprivation at the least? Isn't this against human and animal rights?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation

 

[AndySpooner]

Teagreen, when they push the boundaries, I want to maintain my personal space, so they don't get close enough to bite, or kick me. Horses even my special one, lol, are invited into my space, they don't barge in.

 

[Tinypony]

I had a conversation with Pat Parelli about stallions over a mug of coffee many moons ago.
First, in terms of his Parelli training system, he did not consider anyone to have enough "savvy" to deal with a stallion until they were beyond passing their old-style Parelli level 3. Obviously he realised that the whole world wouldn't work through their levels programme before handling a stallion, but he wouldn't allow anyone in front of him with a stallion who was below that level. (Apart from Charles Wilson, who I believer sneaked his beautiful coloured stally in under the radar a few times). So what I mean is that Mr Parelli would say that dealing with stallions is a job for people who really know what they are doing.
In the case of a stallion with the tendencies described above (regardless of how the horse came to be that way), I suspect that Pat P would either want the issues to be overcome with good training and care, or he would suggest that a horse that dangerous shouldn't be kept in a situation where people could get hurt. Maybe one of the Parelli students here could pose the question on their forum? My suspicion is that the cowboys like Pat and Monty are pretty black and white about things like this. I don't think they would allow a horse that dangerous to stay alive. Pat told me about the day he saw a stallion rip out his lady owner's throat, killing her, that is something that has stayed with him, unsurprisingly.

 

[teagreen]

Teagreen, when they push the boundaries, I want to maintain my personal space, so they don't get close enough to bite, or kick me. Horses even my special one, lol, are invited into my space, they don't barge in.

So how do you maintain your personal space? I'm not talking about a horse barging in, I'm saying you're leading it and, out of the blue, it turns and has a bite at you. Do you not have some way of telling this horse that this is unacceptable?

What are your views of, for example, eventers using a stick to get a good stride to a fence?

 

[DJ]

Andy, can I just ask (geuinely out of interest), if, say, you got a new horse and it decided to test things out with you, as they sometimes do, and had a bite at you, what would you do?

My lad used to bite/nip when he came to me, his old owner used to slap him one for it, he still used to do it, but he had worked out how to do it sneakily, snaking his head, and would then shift his head pdq so he didn`t get the punishment of the slap.


When he first did it to me i jumped at him and did the largest roar at him, waving my arms about and backed him the hell up. He`s never done it since.
He doesn`t and hasn`t bitten anyone else since. He doesn`t do the head snaking anymore either.


He occasionally mouths (he`s a very immature 4 year old) kind of sucks things .... but never uses his teeth. He loves picking things up in his mouth, mainly the poopicker when i`m using it ... i turn round and he`s stood there "holding" it for me

 

[SusannaF]

Who would want to breed from a stallion with a nasty temperament (not caused by conditions)?

Horse racing I can see it happen. But otherwise?

 

[amandap]

I had a conversation with Pat Parelli about stallions over a mug of coffee many moons ago.
First, in terms of his Parelli training system, he did not consider anyone to have enough "savvy" to deal with a stallion until they were beyond passing their old-style Parelli level 3. Obviously he realised that the whole world wouldn't work through their levels programme before handling a stallion, but he wouldn't allow anyone in front of him with a stallion who was below that level. .

Actually I do think allowing people who aren't experienced in handling stallions to care for them is asking for trouble. I don't have any and have never dealt with one more than occasionally at friends but I do know they do require very consistant and strict handling (not much flexibility in manners etc.) and if not soon become difficult and dangerous. So I do think PP has a very valid point there myself.

 

[tallyho!]

Actually I do think allowing people who aren't experienced in handling stallions to care for them is asking for trouble. I don't have any and have never dealt with one more than occasionally at friends but I do know they do require very consistant and strict handling (not much flexibility in manners etc.) and if not soon become difficult and dangerous. So I do think PP has a very valid point there myself.

Where'd you start then? You just can't generalise like that.

You can't generalise that ALL stallions are kept boxed up. That is cruel in my opinion and I've never been anywhere that does that but know places that do - however being stallions they have to be kept in strict routines and this includes turnout, secure paddocks quite a long way from each other if you are on a responsible breeding plan and can't afford "accidents".

Having siad that, the stud nextdoor kept thiers turned out with mares 24/7 and never had much trouble except for a constant supply of foals which is all very natural but you'll be lucky to find a stallions as good as that. They were cobs though...

 

[Tinypony]

With the stallion and the lady dragged over the door, personally I'd have done whatever it took to get her safe as quickly as possible. That might have involved some action with a broom or whatever was to hand, because in that situation, one more stamp could be the one that killed her. Let's face it though, most of the stuff people are talking about here that they consider justifies a "good smack" etc is nowhere near on that scale.
In some of the ridden situations, like needing a horse to move over because of the Legendary Lorry, most of us don't train our horses to a high level of responsiveness. So the horses can be slow to react, or maybe not as precise as we need them to be. That's when people give them a good whack to get them to respond faster. That's not a criticism, it is just the way most of us tend to ride, particularly when we're out hacking when we don't expect as much of our horses as we do in the arena. A well trained western horse, just for example, wouldn't need a whack to get it to move over quickly, it would be there almost before the rider had thought about what they wanted.
In the case of the stallion and the wheelchair lady then after she'd been rescued I guess the question would have been what happened next about the yard owner who allowed the situation to arise in the first place. You can't work on the assumption that everyone will always do the things they need to for safety around a deranged horse. The responsibility lies with whoever is in charge of the yard to make sure that dangerous situations are avoided. If you don't do that, then it can all go wrong in seconds. (But should the stallion be in the situation where it can cause that much damage in the first place? That's really the question for me. Nothing to do with whether or not a person would be justified in walloping it when things got out of hand).

 

[Noodlebug]

Maybe I am lucky with my horse as he has never bitten or pulled a face at me and has definately never been tempted to drag some poor unsuspecting disabled person from their wheelchair so that he could commit a murder in his stable!!!!!

 

[Tinypony]

Well, I've been in situations where I've felt that I needed to respond by hitting, or whatever anyone wants to call it. Like maybe when I was getting run over by an upset horse, or if the horse wasn't responding as quickly as I needed it to in a ridden situation. I don't think I've felt the need for some time, and maybe that's down to the experience I've gained and the training I've had, I don't know? I think maybe it's down to learning to set up some ground rules from the start which mean I tend not to get myself into such sticky situations. Riding, slapping my own leg tends to sharpen things up if The Lorry approaches.

 

[brigantia]

I came to riding later in life and in the beginning I was very squeamish about using the schooling whip. As a result the school ponies had a lot of fun with me. So my instructor made me jump off and told me to smack myself with the whip as hard as I could. I did. It didn't actually hurt. I gave myself a wallop in the hip. It was really just a sting. This taught me that a sharp tap with the schooling whip is really not cruel. It's no big deal. I think the noise is scarier than the actual impact.

My riding progressed better after this.

When I bought my first horse the first thing I had to learn was to be firm and fair, because she was a clever Welshy with lots of tricks up her sleeve and was trying to figure out exactly what she could get away with. She used to nap at the top of the driveway, etc., I mean really badly nap. So I had to learn to be really firm with her. Naughtiness had to be followed up immediately by discipline and clear consequences. Now I hack her out alone all the time.

What's ultimately kinder to the horse? Being firm but fair and using discipline to discourage dangerous behaviour while using praise and rewards to encourage positive behaviour? Or letting your horse literally walk all over you and call the shots so it becomes unrideable and is passed from pillar to post and ultimately ends up being sold to the meat man?

Horses, like children, are actually happier when they have clear boundaries and leadership. It makes their lives a lot less stressed and confusing.

Obviously I agree with others that you should never hit a horse in anger, NEVER in their head or face unless it's for self-defense, never to be macho, and never actually beat them. You want to be firm and fair, not an abusive bully.

When exactly did discipline become a dirty word?

 

[tallyho!]

I came to riding later in life and in the beginning I was very squeamish about using the schooling whip. As a result the school ponies had a lot of fun with me. So my instructor made me jump off and told me to smack myself with the whip as hard as I could. I did. It didn't actually hurt. I gave myself a wallop in the hip. It was really just a sting. This taught me that a sharp tap with the schooling whip is really not cruel. It's no big deal. I think the noise is scarier than the actual impact.

My riding progressed better after this.

When I bought my first horse the first thing I had to learn was to be firm and fair, because she was a clever Welshy with lots of tricks up her sleeve and was trying to figure out exactly what she could get away with. She used to nap at the top of the driveway, etc., I mean really badly nap. So I had to learn to be really firm with her. Naughtiness had to be followed up immediately by discipline and clear consequences. Now I hack her out alone all the time.

What's ultimately kinder to the horse? Being firm but fair and using discipline to discourage dangerous behaviour while using praise and rewards to encourage positive behaviour? Or letting your horse literally walk all over you and call the shots so it becomes unrideable and is passed from pillar to post and ultimately ends up being sold to the meat man?

Horses, like children, are actually happier when they have clear boundaries and leadership. It makes their lives a lot less stressed and confusing.

Obviously I agree with others that you should never hit a horse in anger, NEVER in their head or face unless it's for self-defense, never to be macho, and never actually beat them. You want to be firm and fair, not an abusive bully.

When exactly did discipline become a dirty word?

Bravo!!!!

 

[Queenbee]

Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.

Well why don't you instead of preaching offer to go and show them how the experts handle it!

I repeat my post from earlier since you seem fine with commenting on other peoples incidents but negate to answer queries directed at you:

Finally there are those like andyspooner who say they are anti violence and would never hit a horse, yet they see absolutely no problem with whacking it around the face with the metal part of a leadrope or a stick, which is apparently ok because it is called a effing carrot stick and PP says its ok (WTF?!) So this is not barbaric, but hitting a horse who is being a git/dangerous/agreessive is?

)

You will also see (and I can't believe that I am saying this) that in some ways I agree with your sentiment that humans often create or misread the situation

1. Never repremand in anger

2. Learn to read the individual (horse, dog or human)

3. Learn to read situations and

4. react quickly and appropriately to the situation and the individual

5. Accept responsibility, don't just blame your animals

But equally there is some behaviour that is inexcusable and the horses need to know this, for example: the horse with a sandwich fettish or my youngster who bites when he is bored or tired. Yes both of these have reasons for their behaviour but that doesn't make their behaviour any more acceptable, far better to stop the horse from doing this and as the handler be in control of reprimanding the horse than make excuses and do nothing, what then happens when your horse hurts someone and that someone then hurts your horse in response?!

As I said earlier ben is a baby, and bites when frustrated/bored/tired, whenever he does this he receives a slap on his shoulder and a growl off me. He hardly ever does it now and I feel much better in the knowledge that no one will get harmed by him bitings!

 

[amandap]

Where'd you start then? You just can't generalise like that.

You can't generalise that ALL stallions are kept boxed up. That is cruel in my opinion and I've never been anywhere that does that but know places that do - however being stallions they have to be kept in strict routines and this includes turnout, secure paddocks quite a long way from each other if you are on a responsible breeding plan and can't afford "accidents".

Having siad that, the stud nextdoor kept thiers turned out with mares 24/7 and never had much trouble except for a constant supply of foals which is all very natural but you'll be lucky to find a stallions as good as that. They were cobs though...

I don't think I did generalize that all stallions were kept locked up.

I agree! It seems stallions are sometimes kept in isolation and in a dark small box!

I was trying to illustrate some of the reasons, in my view, that stallions have problems with humans that's all. Of course there are many stallions cared for in ways that do not lead them to become aggressive. Perhaps those that are not kept/handled in these ways or ones that have become aggressive should be looked at more closely than just saying 'oh that stallion is dangerous' and subject it to more bashing and aggressive handling to keep humans safe. Looking at why a stallion has become aggressive surely is an opportunity to learn and make changes to reduce the incidence of stallion aggression in future. Or am I alone in this view?

Of course, as I pointed out much earlier in this thread, if a human is being attacked, any means of saving them is acceptable in that moment but I don't think we should automatically assume that this is the fault of the stallion as some do. We humans are the ones 'in control' here and there is an element of we reap what we sow imo...

 

[amandap]

brigantia said... "Horses, like children, are actually happier when they have clear boundaries and leadership. It makes their lives a lot less stressed and confusing."

I agree wholeheartedly that horses are much happier with clear boundries and leadership. I would add consistant though as I think this is a vital element.
Does this have to mean hitting and whipping to hurt though? I think this is the nub of this thread?

I believe all the above can be done without hurting horses...

 

[amandap]

I think maybe it's down to learning to set up some ground rules from the start which mean I tend not to get myself into such sticky situations.

I think 'ground rules' are vital myself as well as good planning.

I do realize I'm not on a livery and therefore don't have to deal with other people's horses in the field etc. and I can see the potential dangers here and also see that defending yourself may be necessary at times. I think it's a shame that some liveries don't foster a sort of group strategy for dealing with 'difficult' horses as a group where various liveries have to run the gauntlet of horses threatening to knock you down etc. Am I in cloud cuckoo land here though? lol

Mta. Apologies for multiple posts in a row.

 

[Enfys]

It has to be said that the majority of stallions lead a miserable life, shut up most of the time. It's bound to send some of them crazy.

Yep, locked in 24/7, no friends to play with.

 

[AndySpooner]

Queenbee, I don't hit horses with a carrot stick, nor do I belt them round the head with a clip.

I don't want to train horses for other people, and I certainly don't want to train people. I haven't got the empathy with people to be a good trainer.

 

[Spring Feather]

I can see the potential dangers here and also see that defending yourself may be necessary at times.

Correct. For people who handle many many horses, often of unknown character, then it is completely unrealistic for anyone to say anything different. For anyone to even remotely consider not trying to defend themselves (in what ever manner necessary) when faced with a horse attack has to be a shilling short of a pound.

 

[AndySpooner]

One minute you get asked a simple run of the mill question about hitting your horse, and in the normal course of events, you say you don't, or never.
Then the goal posts change and suddenly horses are trying to kill people and everyone is fighting for their life.

 

[Enfys]

One minute you get asked a simple run of the mill question about hitting your horse, and in the normal course of events, you say you don't, or never.
Then the goal posts change and suddenly horses are trying to kill people and everyone is fighting for their life.

Isn't that the nature of any conversation though? Ripples in a pond. No bad thing really.

 

[RuthnMeg]

QR, yes I have wolloped a horse or two in my time. Meg has had a few smacks on the arse. Do I think I am bad? No, has it effected her? No.
I once did 'set into' a horrid horse, and imho deserved it. I don't regret it for a moment. He could have seriously become dangerous, and I stopped him in his tracks.

For those who say 'never', I don't beleive it for a moment.

 

[Queenbee]

Queenbee, I don't hit horses with a carrot stick, nor do I belt them round the head with a clip.

I don't want to train horses for other people, and I certainly don't want to train people. I haven't got the empathy with people to be a good trainer.

AS thats good to know, and I couldn't agree more with your last statement, I will help friends that ask for my help because they know me and are happy for me to handle their horses but people often make me so mad.

I was at my friends yard, having just driven in with children running around (which was ok) until I saw this sodding youngster running loose back from the field, the owners caught him and I went in to see the YO, 10 mins later there was a knock at the door, she couldn't handle the youngster she had brought and was asking for help to turn him out in the field (he was 13 hh) he had peed off from her a total of 5 times before she asked for help. I went out and her kids were still running around, this instantly ticked me off owning to the situation and I told her to pop them in the car. It transpired that this youngster who had lived out all his life had for the first 3 days been kept in the stable (on the advice of a far more experienced livery) so that the new owner could bond with it, the second it got near the field it got over excited seeing the other horses and flipped, it had reared and bolted, then it just kept taking the mickey!

She hadn't the brains she was born with and certainly wasn't responsible enough to have kids or a young pony.

I walked up to him, threaded the leadrope over his poll incase I needed control or he tried to rear and promptly and firmly walked the little firecracker to the field, he was like a coiled frustrated spring, this was entirely an error on the humans side, I won't say he was well behaved but all it took was a firm voice and boundaries, I made him stand, patted him and turned him loose in his paddock.


If I had to handle other peoples horses for them daily I would probably come up on an assault charge and not for hurting a horse, this poor thing was totally flipped because of the humans ignorance, she assumed she could treat him like a well seasoned horse who could deal with things, she didn't even consider the fact that he was a baby and had no idea how to behave or that it was her role to teach him

 

[millreef]

Don't have enough hours in the day to read all the replies but for what it's worth......... I would NEVER and have NEVER whacked my horse. He would crap himself then die of shock. I think a slap for a nip or something is different but to wallop a horse isn't cricket. I do see grooms doing it though. My son had to have a word with one today for beating a pony which was scared of the hosepipe. Now it's scared of the groom, the whip and the hosepipe! Fickin Einstein.

 

[amandap]

One minute you get asked a simple run of the mill question about hitting your horse, and in the normal course of events, you say you don't, or never.
Then the goal posts change and suddenly horses are trying to kill people and everyone is fighting for their life.

Lol. Even I'm getting drawn into that world.

The thing for me is there shouldn't be a reason to hit a horse or fight for your life either. Surely we humans have the brains to train and arrange matters so these occurances are very rare? Or is that asking too much of us?

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Yup I would rather give one good belt than several big kicks and little taps, gets the horses attention and shows you mean business.

My two react to this better than nagging or pestering, but TBF found it worked with most horses i have had, better one good belt that makes them behave or pay attention that things leading to a bad situation.

 

[tallyho!]

What I don't get is everyone arguing about dangerous stallions, kicking shetlands but there's tb's out there getting whipped across the finishing line and no-one bats an eyelid.

 

[Rosie'smum]

I have as she has suddenly got into the habbit of planting her feet and not budgeing out on hacks. I ask nicely and she still jus standa there so a good whack will get her movin again. It is really needed when we were crossing the road and sh stopped in the middle of oncoming traffic onna bend!