When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

Jen_Cots said:
Depends on the horse - just watch them in a herd and there are those where a flick of the ear from the herd alpha sends the scuttling away

Then there are those who are either slow or pushing their luck and the herd leader will generally have to nip and or boot them to get them to listen to the alpha
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Confused, sorry - are you saying here that the herd leader is different from the alpha (dominant) or the same? (They are different usually, but are often assumed to be the same.)

I'd rather 'hit' properly once at the correct timing, as its far more effective. One thing that really annoys me is jumping where if a horse stops the rider turns the horse away (from the thing they are spooking at) and then lays into them. Its pointless and reflection of the riders poor understanding
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Annoying, yes, and it makes one wonder the extent to which cause and effect in punishment (and reward) is misunderstood out of the saddle too!
 
Wagtail said:
I agree, there is a lot of cruelty in some natural horsemanship methods, just as there is in some traditional practices. I like to pick and choose the ones I use. I use a mixture of the two, and hate following any particular regime as I have not found a single one that totally agree with.
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I agree with this :)
 
fburton said:
Confused, sorry - are you saying here that the herd leader is different from the alpha (dominant) or the same? (They are different usually, but are often assumed to be the same.)
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Either - I have a mare who is matriarch and helps the herd leader maintain control, but they are co-dependent in being boss

However if either tell the youngsters to move, the sensible ones do it before the teeth engage (generally from matriarch, depending on how the overall boss is feeling)

Either way horses down the pecking order react differently and precocious youngsters go through a phase of trying it on and getting bitten! Same way that you have to win all the battles with the youngsters (if possible without resorting to brutal methods, but the well trained from day one rarely need this)
 
templewood said:
The horses usually seem to be terrified and have absolutely no idea what is being asked of them or what they are supposed to do. My horses back up quietly and calmy when told "back". These horse go back on the end of a long swishing line with rolling eyes and heads in the air,

Mental cruelty is just as bad, if not worse, than physical cruelty..... with some of these so-called natural methods. All a horse requires from you (apart from general welfare) is to know where he stands and to feel safe and secure. He is then a happy horse.
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Whilst 'usually' is a bit too much of a generalisation in my mind and once trained a horse theoretically will back up with no rolling eyes and head in the air, I do on the whole agree with your sentiment. That mental cruelty is at least as bad, that is why I would tend to agree with WT

Wagtail said:
I agree, there is a lot of cruelty in some natural horsemanship methods, just as there is in some traditional practices. I like to pick and choose the ones I use. I use a mixture of the two, and hate following any particular regime as I have not found a single one that totally agree with.
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I am not for the most part a NH person and prefer the traditional methods which to some extent have already been gone over in this post. I lunge with a lunge line and whip and train to voice commands, I do not look at the horses bum when I want it to stop (I just don't get it, although am happy if anyone wants to enlighten me on that one!) If I want to train a horse to go back, I put pressure in the chest, I don't smack it with my hands in the face or wave a bloomin rope at it. I do not smack or hit any horse as part of my day to day life, but I will give a smack and a growl to reprimand bolshy, rude or dangerous behaviour. Seems to me that when training a horse it is simple sense to give very clear signals to the horse, since confusion on the horses part could often cause a worse immediate situation. I do however use body language and eye contact and go by the behaviour and body language of a horse. I am a great believer in evading problems before they arise, creating a situation where a horse wants to do something and does not battle against you!
 
Wagtail said:
My point wasn't that we should replicate what horses do to one another. My point was that horses instill fear in one another to gain respect. We have to find a way of making them respect us without inflicting pain. I have never had a problem with this either.
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Thanks for clarifying. I was also expanding and explaining my thinking.

fburton said:
Confused, sorry - are you saying here that the herd leader is different from the alpha (dominant) or the same? (They are different usually, but are often assumed to be the same.)
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I so agree with this. I too watch my herd and have identified clearly who to me is the lead horse. He is certainly not the most bossy or aggressive (dominant ;) wink for fburton). In fact I very rarely see him being overtly assertive to the point of physical aggression.

Note he is not a mare but a gelding.
 
charlie76 said:
I watch this person on H&C TV:
http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/

Might be what people class as natural horsemanship but from what I have seen the horses looks terrified of him, are always out of breath and dripping in sweat.
Not nice IMO
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Not sure which episodes you have been watching, as with everything you learn something new. Clinton despooks horses faster than other techniques as he won't remove the agitator until they relax, but he is all about teaching the horse to relax.

More useful techniques than parelli IMHO
 
queenbee said:
I am a great believer in evading problems before they arise, creating a situation where a horse wants to do something and does not battle against you!
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Yes, me too.

I have forgotten one crucial aspect you mention queenbee that of learning to 'read' your horse and therefore pick up signs of worry or resistance etc. earlier so you can modify your aproach before there is a crisis.
 
Jen_Cots said:
Not sure which episodes you have been watching, as with everything you learn something new. Clinton despooks horses faster than other techniques as he won't remove the agitator until they relax, but he is all about teaching the horse to relax.

More useful techniques than parelli IMHO
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I think Clinton Anderson illustrates flooding quite clearly in some of his film clips.

He's not "what people class as natural horsemanship", he's just one trainer that comes loosely under that banner. The way they work varies considerably, and he's fairly extreme in some of what he does.
 
Templewood I shall have to agree to disagree with you regarding the majority of 'nh style' trained horses I have had the pleasure of watching. I agree there is good and bad horsemanship under any school of thought and as another poster said, I take the best bits I see from any trainer, and discard the less useful bits :)

Incidentally I find it interesting that many people cite 'horses do it in the herd' as a good reason to use aggression. Thats a whole other debate maybe.
 
Tinypony said:
I think Clinton Anderson illustrates flooding quite clearly in some of his film clips.

He's not "what people class as natural horsemanship", he's just one trainer that comes loosely under that banner. The way they work varies considerably, and he's fairly extreme in some of what he does.
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Clinton does not claim to be a Natural Horseman, you are quite right. I had a guy out yesterday who uses Clintons methods and I agreed with his methods 100 fold. I do hit my horse :eek: YES!! I do, I havent bothered to read all the replies so feel about me how you will. I hit my horse as and when it is warrented, should he turn his back end on me, he will get a spank to let him know it is absolutely not acceptable, exactly how another horse would kick him if he did the same in the field or the wild. They are animals, that we have dominated whether you like to believe it or not. If you had no dominance over your horse, how on earth would you be on its back, putting on a halter etc. This is no excuse however, to let your own emotions - anger, frustration etc. become an acceptable reason to give them a smack. I will admit that a period of being too soft on the current horse has led to some 'unwanted' behaviour as he doesnt feel secure and in control of under my half-hearted leadership. I turned this around with the work done on him yesterday. And will continue to be the leader for the sake of both of ours safety.
 
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templewood said:
I see more and more twitchy, jumpy horses, with rolling eyes and dilated nostrils being 'trained' by so called 'kind' methods. When you look into it, these methods are not kind at all! The horses usually seem to be terrified and have absolutely no idea what is being asked of them or what they are supposed to do. My horses back up quietly and calmy when told "back". These horse go back on the end of a long swishing line with rolling eyes and heads in the air, and if they don't, as I've seen recently, they are hit over the head with the end of the rope!
As for polite, relaxed, switched on horses, all I've seen at the other end of the spectrum is horses that have been completely ground down by these methods and are little more than zombies, with absolutely no interest in anything. They do what they're told automatically, but with no enthusiasm, a though they have completely lost interest in life, which they probably have. I remember one stretching his muzzle out to me for a fuss. He was immediately jerked back by his owner, as, apparently, he didn't have 'permission' to enter my space!

Mental cruelty is just as bad, if not worse, than physical cruelty. I could go on, but to sum up, when I was younger, horses seemed a lot happier than they do now, with some of these so-called natural methods. All a horse requires from you (apart from general welfare) is to know where he stands and to feel safe and secure. He is then a happy horse.
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You have perfectly summed up branded "natural horsemanship". The horses go through fear and end up with lives built on abject misery. It is mental cruelty the love, language and leadership these institutions claim to represent is just a lie.
 
queenbee said:
I am not for the most part a NH person and prefer the traditional methods which to some extent have already been gone over in this post. I lunge with a lunge line and whip and train to voice commands, I do not look at the horses bum when I want it to stop (I just don't get it, although am happy if anyone wants to enlighten me on that one!) If I want to train a horse to go back, I put pressure in the chest, I don't smack it with my hands in the face or wave a bloomin rope at it. I do not smack or hit any horse as part of my day to day life, but I will give a smack and a growl to reprimand bolshy, rude or dangerous behaviour. Seems to me that when training a horse it is simple sense to give very clear signals to the horse, since confusion on the horses part could often cause a worse immediate situation. I do however use body language and eye contact and go by the behaviour and body language of a horse. I am a great believer in evading problems before they arise, creating a situation where a horse wants to do something and does not battle against you!
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Totally agree with this.
 
Winklepoker said:
Clinton does not claim to be a Natural Horseman, you are quite right. I had a guy out yesterday who uses Clintons methods and I agreed with his methods 100 fold. I do hit my horse :eek: YES!! I do, I havent bothered to read all the replies so feel about me how you will. I hit my horse as and when it is warrented, should he turn his back end on me, he will get a spank to let him know it is absolutely not acceptable, exactly how another horse would kick him if he did the same in the field or the wild. They are animals, that we have dominated whether you like to believe it or not. If you had no dominance over your horse, how on earth would you be on its back, putting on a halter etc. This is no excuse however, to let your own emotions - anger, frustration etc. become an acceptable reason to give them a smack. I will admit that a period of being too soft on the current horse has led to some 'unwanted' behaviour as he doesnt feel secure and in control of under my half-hearted leadership. I turned this around with the work done on him yesterday. And will continue to be the leader for the sake of both of ours safety.
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Some of the issues you have raised have already been discussed, if you have a read of the replies previously.
 
fburton said:
Body language, of course - most of it non-aggressive - plus some vocalisation.
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The horse body language works on the basis that if the body language is ignored, physical means will be used. The body language REQUIRES the occasional use of violence to work.


fburton said:
If you want to discourage entry into the feed shed and also help to ensure that it is appropriately secured, perhaps you could rig up a loud alarm device that activates when the door is opened and that can only be de-activated temporarily? That would provide instant deterrence for any would be equine intruders, and act as a reminder to humans to close the door behind them.
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Thankyou! That's actually the best suggestion I have had. If I feel the need in future, now OH is well again, then I will get him to rig an alarm that can be reset to be off for a few minutes only while I clean tack or put up food. It wouldn't deter my horses, I teach them not to be afraid of loud noises so that they can cope with guns, heavy machinery and fireworks :) but it will shriek at anyone who leaves the door open without being present.
 
Every single poster on this threat should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
Why? Because I have just spent the best part of an hour reading 50 pages of it whilst my poor horsey waits in his stable for some attention. So you are ALL guilty of cruelty.
Even you Spooner.
 
lastchancer said:
Every single poster on this threat should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
Why? Because I have just spent the best part of an hour reading 50 pages of it whilst my poor horsey waits in his stable for some attention. So you are ALL guilty of cruelty.
Even you Spooner.
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LOL. Classic, blaming others for your actions. Now where have we all seen/done this before? :D
 
cptrayes said:
TThankyou! That's actually the best suggestion I have had. If I feel the need in future, now OH is well again, then I will get him to rig an alarm that can be reset to be off for a few minutes only while I clean tack or put up food. It wouldn't deter my horses, I teach them not to be afraid of loud noises so that they can cope with guns, heavy machinery and fireworks :) but it will shriek at anyone who leaves the door open without being present.
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You're welcome! I wasn't 100% sure if I understood the problem, but if the idea saves any of your horses from harm I would be well pleased. :)
 
Jen_Cots said:
Not sure which episodes you have been watching, as with everything you learn something new. Clinton despooks horses faster than other techniques as he won't remove the agitator until they relax, but he is all about teaching the horse to relax.

More useful techniques than parelli IMHO
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It's called flooding and doesn't teach the horse anything except to suppress their feelings. CA isn't a gentle trainer, he is quite rough and brutish. It would be much better to do proper despooking training so that your horse really isn't scared.


To answer the original question, no I don't hit my horse, I have in the past but I learned that it doesn't help and doesn't get me anywhere.

I also don't do these natural horsemanship methods either, gum lines/buckstoppers or whatever you call them are not kind and they're not natural. Just because something is non violent doesn't mean that it doesn't cause harm.
 
fburton said:
Interesting! Who says they are? This may be a well-recognized phenomenon - and if so, I'd be interested to find out why, because it has not been a particular problem in my experience. Horses have always kicked and injured other horses from time to time, and ructions are more frequent when horses are added and removed a lot. However, I am surprised to hear this problem is getting worse - or do you mean the tolerance of injury is getting less?
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Unfortunately they are. I've recently been looking at yards for my two and lots of places have either single horse turnout or no more than two. I want my horses in a herd fgs!
 
HuntingPink said:
Unfortunately they are. I've recently been looking at yards for my two and lots of places have either single horse turnout or no more than two. I want my horses in a herd fgs!
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You can come and join my herd if you want? They're mainly sedate but every now and they like to play pat-a-cake.... :D:D:D
 
HuntingPink said:
It's called flooding and doesn't teach the horse anything except to suppress their feelings.
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I'm not sure that I understand you here, so can you clarify? Are you saying that it is not possible to train a horse to be genuinely unafraid of an "agitator" by keeping it near the agitator until it relaxes?

If so, I can assure you that you are 100% incorrect and that it is perfectly possible to train a horse to be genuinely relaxed about, say, sheep, by riding in a field of sheep until the horse relaxes with the sheep around. I have done it many times, with many things, and I can tell the difference between a horse suppressing its reaction (where, for example, the breathing remains faster and heavier than normal) and one which has genuinely relaxed, and so can any decent horseman.
 
Mike007 said:
Me, well I,m still learning about horses ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.
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nicely put,:D
i have hit horses, a long time ago a young mare leaned out of her stable and bit me as i walked past, it was an instant reaction for me to wallop her on the neck because god damn it , it hurt! i felt guilty because she shot to the back of the stable and looked terrified................ for about 2 minutes! then she came back over and we carried on as if nothing had happened, but she never bit anyone after that;)
my big girl is a tester, she will use her size to intimidate people if she can, i've seen her be downright bolshy with other people but she doesn't try it with me, when we went to get her she wouldn't load in the lorry, her owner tried hitting, throwing water on her butt, lunge whip the usual array of loading 'techniques' :rolleyes: no joy for an hour, so they phoned her old sharer who came out and did 10 mins in hand leading her ,backing up and moving her about and then proceeded to load her at the 2nd attempt, i decided right there that fighting with that mare would never get me anywhere, treat her with respect and make the boundaries clear and we get on just fine;)
I'm not a fluffy bunny hugger tho lol, if it bites it will get a slap, i just don't feel the need to 'dominate' my horses and it seems to have worked just fine:)
 
I havent read all the replies, but hell yeah! so long as it warrants it. I think a better question would have been have you ever hit/punished a horse in anger. Sometimes I have open palm slapped them, hit them round the bum with head collars/bridles, walloped them hard a couple of times with a whip when under saddle, etc, etc, etc but I have NEVER EVER hit/disciplined a horse in anger :)
 
Only when my own safety was in danger. Delicia is a bugger for trying to crush people against walls. Was bandaging her one day and she starting leaning on me, pushing me against the wall. I slapped her on the buttock of remind her i was here. She steped sideways out of my way and i immediatly patted her and told her she was a good girl.
 
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