When you're done with horses but horse is unsellable?

[Pegasus5531]

I would PTS. I feel that by asking the question on this forum you have already somewhat come to this conclusion yourself and as many others have said there are far worse fates. You said yourself that the cost of living crisis is making the situation unworkable and that you are not getting the same enjoyment from horses. Many people are in this position at the moment even with a healthy horse so I would be very surprised if you can find a suitable companion home when people can't afford to keep rideable horses.

 

[maya2008]

Was rather shocked to see a well known and well respected equine college advertising a horse for a companion only home on Facebook earlier today ? Gone are the days of taking a lorry load to Potters.

A TB no less, if I remember correctly. TBs are rarely wanted as companions, as they are poor doers. We retired ours, and she lived out her twilight years with the herd, but that was on Boswellia, joint supplements and still a fair amount of hard feed! I’d had her nearly all her life though, so I didn’t mind the expense.

Perhaps the horse was on loan to them and the owner wanted to find a companion home. I hope that horse finds what they are looking for, and isn’t buted up and sold on as rideable.

 

[Xmasha]

Do you personally know the horse, its history, vets reports and whether that horse could be a companion in a home vetted by the college with some sort of contract in place to look after its best interests? No you don't therefore you are not best placed to comment on what is probably a much loved horse. The horse may not even have physical issues, they be mental issues and if it does have physical issues I'm sure they have been fully investigated and treated and advised by their vet, as indeed have I, that our horses can retire pain free without medication.

With respect I don't know how you can comment on this without the factual evidence to hand.

Birker .. marmalade gave an opinion that is all . forgive me if I’m wrong here , but it looks as though you are taking this thread too personally.
I understand you are having a tough time and I’m sorry for that . But for your own sanity step back . Lari is lucky to have you fight his corner and I hope he improves . God knows you need to good luck .

As for the PTS debate .. here’s my Opinion.. it’s no one’s business apart form the person who owns the horse and the vet treating .
What would I do ? If I was in OP situation I’d like to think I’d PTS. Way too many horror stories out there .
My old girl is 24 and has been retired for quite some years now . Is she completely pain free , I’m hazarding a guess no . But at the minute I can say with a good degree of certainty that she is happy . The minute I think she’s not I will let her go . But while she’s bucking, farting and galloping with her grandkids she will be left to enjoy her retirement. I will know when the time is right . After all I see her every day and have done for the past 19years . So think I’m best placed to make that call rather than a load of forum members who don’t know her or our set up .

 

[Goldenstar]

Tbh how many mature humans who have lead an active life are pain free .
I think that a completely pain free existence is not the norm at all for mature horses and for mature people .
This is one of the things that’s makes it complicated.

 

[ycbm]

Tbh how many mature humans who have lead an active life are pain free .
I think that a completely pain free existence is not the norm at all for mature horses and for mature people .
This is one of the things that’s makes it complicated.

The people make their own choice, though, the horse can't. And looking forward to a better day tomorrow is a key way that people get through pain.

I read these discussions and think the choices we make for our horses are also impacted by our own attitudes to death, and life. I have absolutely no fear of being dead. I am terrified of the limitless bad possibilities of the way I arrive at that point. I therefore also have no fear for my horses, and particularly no fear of them having any sense of having missed out on further life, of them being dead.
.

 

[cauda equina]

deleted

 

[Goldenstar]

The people make their own choice, though, the horse can't. And looking forward to a better day tomorrow is a key way that people get through pain.

I read these discussions and think the choices we make for our horses are also impacted by our own attitudes to death, and life. I have absolutely no fear of being dead. I am terrified of the limitless bad possibilities of the way I arrive at that point. I therefore also have no fear for my horses, and particularly no fear of them having any sense of having missed out on further life, of them being dead.
.

Yes the horse can’t make its own choice but setting the bar at completely pain free is imo too high .
However pain is only one of the things that’s being considered in the decision .
For example how much the horse enjoys turnout is another , the quality of the turnout available and it’s size is another there’s lots of things that people should be thinking about when they have this decision on their plate .

 

[marmalade76]

Do you personally know the horse, its history, vets reports and whether that horse could be a companion in a home vetted by the college with some sort of contract in place to look after its best interests? No you don't therefore you are not best placed to comment on what is probably a much loved horse. The horse may not even have physical issues, they be mental issues and if it does have physical issues I'm sure they have been fully investigated and treated and advised by their vet, as indeed have I, that our horses can retire pain free without medication.

With respect I don't know how you can comment on this without the factual evidence to hand.

It has been said on this thread over and over again why it's not a good idea to rehome horses as companions, it has gone wrong for so many people including forum members. Yes, there are people who will keep big horses as unridden pets, I have a couple of friends who do but these people are a tiny minority. You can do all the right checks and still get caught out, you can have contracts but they're not really worth the paper they're written on.

This particular horse can't be ridden, is 13 so potentially has 10+ years ahead of it, who is going to commit to that in the current climate?

I'm surprised at this college, I thought they'd be more savvy than that but it is more likely that it's a loan horse and the owner had asked them to try and rehome him.

As for being a much loved horse, if the owner loved it that much, why are they not looking after it themselves? Can't get my head round this.

Agree with others, you seem to take everything personally, try to make so many threads about you, I'm sorry for the rotten luck you've had, but you need to take a step back, you're like a dog with a bone.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I totally agree, they must be absolute bonkers, what did they think the horses outlook was? Some terrible nasty people around.

That is awful that people on this forum harrased you for PTS a 30 year old horse in pain !!!

It was horrible. Also wasn’t just on here Facebook was hell as well.

This was him a month before the vet and I called it for him. Vet offered me surgery that he probably wouldn’t survive and if we did it was going to be 6/8 months of box rest or PTS. I think I chose well for him because he was my own soul and I wouldn’t want to suffer myself.

This was his second abscess burst from the same foot. Farrier had been twice to release it. Once from coronet and once from heel. On the third time the vet gave me the above options as he removed massive portions of his hoof and it was just pus and mush. I got abuse for that so the crusaders will always justify life even when life is pain and suffering in a different way.

 

[Dexter]

Believe me when I say that Lari is a very much loved member of the family and his needs will always come first.
And I am really done with this thread now.

I'm sorry but his needs dont come first. Keeping a retired horse stabled half the time and turned out alone in a tiny paddock is not putting his needs first. Neither is being sent to the blood bank when you have no idea if he will cope with that.

 

[Goldenstar]

It was horrible. Also wasn’t just on here Facebook was hell as well.

This was him a month before the vet and I called it for him. Vet offered me surgery that he probably wouldn’t survive and if we did it was going to be 6/8 months of box rest or PTS. I think I chose well for him because he was my own soul and I wouldn’t want to suffer myself.

This was his second abscess burst from the same foot. Farrier had been twice to release it. Once from coronet and once from heel. On the third time the vet gave me the above options as he removed massive portions of his hoof and it was just pus and mush. I got abuse for that so the crusaders will always justify life even when life is pain and suffering in a different way.
View attachment 100573View attachment 100574View attachment 100575

Ah, what a lovely old man he was .

 

[ihatework]

My worst was getting guilt tripped by a bloody vet!

19yo tb type. Ex-Eventer. Retired at 12 for lameness issues. Cushings from 14 (acth at diagnosis >500). Maintained on Bute and prascend for 5 years. Was dust sensitive so would get snotty if in unless very well managed.

Id always said he could have his retirement for as long as he was happy, sufficiently pain free/limited, and could graze unrestricted in a herd.

At 19 he got mild laminitis.

I called the vet to put him down.

I came away feeling like a murderer and agreeing to X-rays, box rest and remedial shoes.

Next time I just called the hunt.

 

[Barton Bounty]

It was horrible. Also wasn’t just on here Facebook was hell as well.

This was him a month before the vet and I called it for him. Vet offered me surgery that he probably wouldn’t survive and if we did it was going to be 6/8 months of box rest or PTS. I think I chose well for him because he was my own soul and I wouldn’t want to suffer myself.

This was his second abscess burst from the same foot. Farrier had been twice to release it. Once from coronet and once from heel. On the third time the vet gave me the above options as he removed massive portions of his hoof and it was just pus and mush. I got abuse for that so the crusaders will always justify life even when life is pain and suffering in a different way.
View attachment 100573View attachment 100574View attachment 100575

He looks really sweet

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

He looks really sweet

Ah, what a lovely old man he was .

He was the most beautiful soul. I miss him every day.

 

[nikkimariet]

Lots of perfectly decent, blemished horses have a valid use as a brood mare. Why destroy them instead? That's just a waste.

And there’s enough super amazing proven broodmares out there already. Always have to ask the question what makes this horse worth breeding from imho.

 

[babymare]

It was horrible. Also wasn’t just on here Facebook was hell as well.

This was him a month before the vet and I called it for him. Vet offered me surgery that he probably wouldn’t survive and if we did it was going to be 6/8 months of box rest or PTS. I think I chose well for him because he was my own soul and I wouldn’t want to suffer myself.

This was his second abscess burst from the same foot. Farrier had been twice to release it. Once from coronet and once from heel. On the third time the vet gave me the above options as he removed massive portions of his hoof and it was just pus and mush. I got abuse for that so the crusaders will always justify life even when life is pain and suffering in a different way.
View attachment 100573View attachment 100574View attachment 100575

He was a lucky lad having you has an owner thinking of his needs and happiness. Some people are vile.

 

[SpotsandBays]

And there’s enough super amazing proven broodmares out there already. Always have to ask the question what makes this horse worth breeding from imho.

Exactly this! We should be breeding from the best, to try and iron out the many genetic/conformation/etc issues we now see in horses. Not just stick any horse in foal because they don’t have a job!

 

[Flame_]

And there’s enough super amazing proven broodmares out there already. Always have to ask the question what makes this horse worth breeding from imho.

Most people don't want or need super amazing. If the mare were a quality, well put together sort that operated well until sustaining an injury, coupled with the good temperament that the OP described, there might be a breeding home that would welcome her. This mare's conformation led to the injury so it's not an option, but were this not the case I'd be exploring the possibility if I were the OP.

 

[Cortez]

Most people don't want or need super amazing. If the mare were a quality, well put together sort that operated well until sustaining an injury, coupled with the good temperament that the OP described, there might be a breeding home that would welcome her. This mare's conformation led to the injury so it's not an option, but were this not the case I'd be exploring the possibility if I were the OP.

And THAT folks is exactly why there is no hope of there ever being a truly professional sport horse breeding industry in the UK

 

[cauda equina]

Of course there is professional sport horse breeding in the uk - what would you call the Billy Stud?

But there are an awful lot of people eg me who would not be able to ride one side of a professionally-bred sport horse and are grateful that there are other (common, poorly bred, call them what you will) types being bred too

 

[ycbm]

Yes the horse can’t make its own choice but setting the bar at completely pain free is imo too high .

Well I agree completely there. The problem is, with horses knowing that the one that looks weak is the lion's next breakfast, how to judge whether the pain a horse is in is acceptable or not when they are so damned good at hiding it.
.

 

[paddy555]

The people make their own choice, though, the horse can't. And looking forward to a better day tomorrow is a key way that people get through pain.

I read these discussions and think the choices we make for our horses are also impacted by our own attitudes to death, and life. I have absolutely no fear of being dead. I am terrified of the limitless bad possibilities of the way I arrive at that point. I therefore also have no fear for my horses, and particularly no fear of them having any sense of having missed out on further life, of them being dead.
.

how can people make their own choice. If you are in pain other than painkillers that is it until assisted dying is introduced which is not happening at any great speed in England.

Pain exists in all horses, other animals and humans. There are degrees of pain and ways in which the mammal copes with it.

your choice does appear to be impacted by your attitude to death. You are terrified as to how you get there and in what degree of pain and want to spare them pain.
I am equally unhappy as to how I get there but I don't see any point in PTS a horse (or anything else) just to avoid it being in some degree of pain at some stage in the future..
We have to remember that a lot of ridden horses spend their lives in pain to do the work we want of them.

I don't get why you would want them to miss out on further life? if that was a miserable painful existence then of course. However not all horses go into retirement in that way. Many cope well with pain, even better with bute, have a positive attitude to pain and clearly, from the way they behave, are kept and ineract, have a good quality of life. Many would go into retirement almost pain free, probably more pain free than when they were ridden, if they got the chance.

Yes the horse can’t make its own choice but setting the bar at completely pain free is imo too high .
However pain is only one of the things that’s being considered in the decision .
For example how much the horse enjoys turnout is another , the quality of the turnout available and it’s size is another there’s lots of things that people should be thinking about when they have this decision on their plate .

this to me is a much better description of retiring horses. There are a lot of factors to take into account.

Based on the original question on here I would not pass a horse on either on loan or as a companion, to a BB or anywhere else. I have taken in several horses from "horse people" and they have been wrecks some both mental and physical so I couldn't risk that happening. If that was my only choice I am afraid their days would be ended here.

 

[Xmasha]

Well I agree completely there. The problem is, with horses knowing that the one that looks weak is the lion's next breakfast, how to judge whether the pain a horse is in is acceptable or not when they are so damned good at hiding it.
.

That’s where knowing your horse comes into play . Horses just as humans have varying degrees of pain threshold .
If the horse still has a twinkle in his eyes / eats and drinks normally and can and does play / interact with others willingly then imho the horse is happy .

 

[ponynutz]

Why on earth shouldn't we breed from generic horses? Can understand not putting an injured or such one in foal (can genuinally understand the argument of breeding out conformation problems and horses prone to injury) but if owner loves horse/pony and want to keep the foal for themselves or to be low level (which I've seen happen countless times) then that's their choice.

If every horse on the planet was a top level one what would we learn on? What would be in our riding schools?

Going even further... horses are pets to some. Why not breed from a particular favourite as we might with dogs or cats?

 

[NR88]

?

No one has said that only medal winning GP dressage and jumpers or five star eventers should be bred from.

What they have said is that omly the best should be bred from; that covers conformation, movement and type [dependant on type].

If there were gradings for type, as well as breed, then the aim.would be to o ly breed good horses and stop indiscriminate backyard breeding.

As an aside also shouldn't be breeding from "pet" cats or dogs. If only good quality animals were bred the rescue centres wouldn't be bursting at the seams.

The obsession with breeding anything with a uterus is ridiculous.

This has been shared online several times. Very few "but I love my horse" breeders meet these standards.

 

[SpotsandBays]

Why on earth shouldn't we breed from generic horses? Can understand not putting an injured or such one in foal (can genuinally understand the argument of breeding out conformation problems and horses prone to injury) but if owner loves horse/pony and want to keep the foal for themselves or to be low level (which I've seen happen countless times) then that's their choice.

If every horse on the planet was a top level one what would we learn on? What would be in our riding schools?

Going even further... horses are pets to some. Why not breed from a particular favourite as we might with dogs or cats?

It’s not that we shouldn’t breed from “generic” horses. And if somebody has a good mare that can no longer be ridden because of an injury but they’d like a foal from her to keep for themselves then that’s not an issue at all!
Im talking more about selling a horse labelled as a broodmare just because she has no other “purpose” in life. The rescues are already beaming full of companions/young horses. I don’t think people should breed just for the sake of breeding.
(sorry for derailing the thread!)

 

[bonny]

It’s not that we shouldn’t breed from “generic” horses. And if somebody has a good mare that can no longer be ridden because of an injury but they’d like a foal from her to keep for themselves then that’s not an issue at all!
Im talking more about selling a horse labelled as a broodmare just because she has no other “purpose” in life. The rescues are already beaming full of companions/young horses. I don’t think people should breed just for the sake of breeding.
(sorry for derailing the thread!)

I’m not sure it’s possible to derail the thread after 326 answers!

 

[Gallop_Away]

Well I agree completely there. The problem is, with horses knowing that the one that looks weak is the lion's next breakfast, how to judge whether the pain a horse is in is acceptable or not when they are so damned good at hiding it.
.

If only horses could talk. I suppose we can never 100% know the answer to this. However I think this is where having the opinion of an experienced and trusted vet is invaluable and also simply knowing your horse.

As daft as this may sound, I knew husband's standie was lame previously simply from watching him from the yard. He was in his summer paddock which is probably a good half a mile away from the yard. He wasn't hopping lame or even noticeably lame in walk. He just wasn't moving the way he usually does. True enough he was lame on the front fore off-side. Injury to his check ligament.

More recently, same horse, he was lying down more than usual. Not really visibly lame at walk and only slightly lame in trot, but again not right. Farrier was due anyway so asked him to take a look before getting my vet out. Lovely little abscess found in one of his front hooves.

I certainly don't class myself as an expert on lameness, but I do know my horses and I do trust my gut if I feel something isn't right.

 

[SpotsandBays]

But there are an awful lot of people eg me who would not be able to ride one side of a professionally-bred sport horse and are grateful that there are other (common, poorly bred, call them what you will) types being bred too

I’m one of those people too! But just because I won’t make it much further than a local unaffiliated competition, doesn’t mean that I should compromise on having a horse that is free from genetic issues and is going to be as healthy/sound for as long as possible.
They don’t need to be a world beater! They just need to be bred with care ?
Edited for spelling mistakes ?

 

[cauda equina]

Most of my easiest, soundest horses have had no recorded breeding so whether they were carefully bred (which I very much doubt) or the result of field liasons, who knows?