brucea
Well-Known Member
I've never taken a veteran through transition, the feet grow at the same rate so it should be about the same. I guess the real determining factor will be how much the feet have been compromised over the years by being shod.
Who trims their own horses feet?
- Thread starter Racing_Gal
- Start date
I've never taken a veteran through transition, the feet grow at the same rate so it should be about the same. I guess the real determining factor will be how much the feet have been compromised over the years by being shod.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Thats part of the problem i have though. When there is a desperate situation the decision is easier- you have nothing to lose. But i have some valuable, sound, young competition horses and in order to make a decision as to whether to take their shoes off or not i need evidence. I cant make such a leap without serious justification and from that i want research and not just anecdotal evidence. I need to know that there is good evidence that they would be better off without shoes, not just take someones word for it and hope for the best. If i am to make the commitment of a long period of adjustment, i dont want to make a mistake when so far, being shod, i have no problems, they are sound and healthy and i have no problems with their feet or the shoes. Its not to say that unshod couldnt be better, i am open to the fact it might be but im not willing to use my horses as guinea pigs without very good background knowledge. As was said earlier- i like the concept but i need numbers!
I take it that this is aimed at me? Well can i suggest you read the thread again? I am trying to learn about it! But the information i asked for wasnt forthcoming. I also set a little test to try and see if anyone had the level of understanding that i want. I am sceptical, yes, because of my experience of the subject and the often unprofessional approach by trimmers (including some of the silly attitudes on threads like this). 2 people on here (brucea/mr darcy) have been very helpful. But i will not apologise for wanting to make sure that what im being told is accurate and substantiated. I am not an owner who buys marketing or believes everything they are told. I want the best for my horses, as do most people, and if i was convinced to take their shoes off i would do it -no closed mind here. Just a very thorough and inquiring mind and not one to take risks with my horses welfare.
So until i have enough info to make an educated decision i will stick to my farrier. Who is excellent and does a good job with my horses. He has trained for years, has even more years experience and is registered and insured. He is happy to trim my unshod horses and does a good job on those too.
brucea
Well-Known Member
;-) I think you would make a very good "barefooter" then teddyt - that's exactly how every barefooter I know thinks about it!
The real key thing is - no one should try to convince you to take your horse's shoes off, and you should not allow yourself to "be convinced" to take the shoes off.
This has to be an individual owner's own decision and must be based on a lot of thought, research and meeting barefoot horses, and looking at lots of feet.
It is not, in my opinion, something that should be proselytised - too much of the formula for success with taking a horse with foot problems down the barefoot route is dependant on the willingness of the owner to potentially make big changes that may have a significant impact.
It took me 6 months to make the decision to go barefoot - and I really researched quite deeply before going there. I got help from an experienced trimmer and also kept my farrier on board.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
barefooty peeps, general query (no evidence based research required) does age of horse seem to matter at all for taking them barefoot? Not paddock retirees but perhaps older horses that are still in regular work do they struggle more or no?
Perhaps I can help here?
I took the shoes off my then 21 year old arab gelding last July. He's been shod since he was four or five and done a LOT of work in shoes, including being British National Endurance Champion, winner and placed many times in race rides, including wins over 100miles in a day. His total competitive successful completion mileage so far is 6,652kms (over 4000 miles). He's been a sound horse through his life, though has two massive splints on his front legs, is a bit joint stiff these days, and has typical 'shod for many years' feet - tendency to run to long toes and underrun heels. He's remained perfectly workable (at speed too!) since I bought him four years ago, definitely not a paddock retiree. He still thinks he's a young champion endurance horse!
I took his shoes off and he was footy on concrete for about a week but after that was comfortable and sound in hand on everything and has remained so. He hasn't however done much ridden work - not due to his feet or any other health reason just pure lack of time on my part. As a result, though his hoof wall has thickened and is of a better quality the back of his foot hasn't developed at all. His heels are still contracted and underrun and his toes still want to shoot forwards. He's a great example of why we go on and on about going barefoot being more than about taking the shoes off. His diet is right, the trim is right but he's not being worked on hard terrain and until that happens the back of his foot will never beef up, his heels will remain weak and underrun and his toe won't come back under him.
So my task for this summer is to bring him back into full work and watch his feet change. Maybe I should take photos and post them here from time to time? It's not a scientific study but I'm certainly interested in what happens. He doesn't owe anyone anything but the speed he chases my filly round the field tells me he's not done with working life yet.
teddyt said:
I can't give you numbers unfortunately but two examples of my own.
My then 13 year old advanced endurance gelding - has always had fab feet, no issues at all until I changed farrier. New farrier cocked things up but I could easily have gone back to the original farrier who is probably the best in the area and I'm sure would very quickly have sorted his feet out. However I'd been teetering on the brink of trying barefoot for ages (surrounded by lots of friends who were barefoot) and decided to take the leap. My barefoot friends actually advised me against it as it was at the start of the endurance season and they said it might cock up my entire season. I didn't particularly want to miss any competitions either but I'm a bit of a stubborn get and once i decide something I go with it. So off came the shoes, diet was already pretty much there, and he was already in hard work (we'd just done a 30 mile endurance ride). I got a set of hoof boots and we stepped into the breach. Despite the words of caution from my friends we didn't have to reduce work load at all and though we missed one ride (because the hoof boots hadn't arrived in time) that was the only comp we missed (oh apart from the one where the bloomin horsebox broke down in the middle of nowheresville). In July we successfully completed a 40 mile ride with a Grade 2. And then stupid me went and broke my foot (the irony was not lost on me!) and that was season over. But the risk had paid off - yep we were competing in hoof boots but doing more and more training at home without. His feet are looking great and he can travel at speed over any sort of terrain now. But on the scale of transitioning to barefoot he's still early days - and his feet will only get better and better.
Example 2 - in August I bought the up and coming endurance hopeful. Couldn't really afford it but hey... I'm ambitious and I want to achieve the elusive 100 mile in a day. Current horse isn't talented enough. So along came a 7 year old arab ex-race horse. Big, bay and with soup plates for feet (lots of flare/flat sole) but sound, good legs and a reasonable racing record behind him - loads and loads of potential and I had plenty of people tell me I'd bought a good 'un. Off came the shoes and transitioning began. He was a little footy on stones at first but not for long. He hasn't quite grown a new foot yet but his feet are bloomin amazing to look at. No longer soup plates they actually look like they match the rest of him now that all the flare has grown out. He's incredibly sure footed - goes down hills like a mountain goat (would trot down steep tarmac tracks if I let him) and is proving to be a bit of a super star. He got a grade 1 at his first competitive event and we had to stop for fifteen minutes towards the end as our average speed was too fast. Who knows where he'll end up but he has the potential to be very good indeed. Again it was a risk to take the shoes off but if you saw what his feet looked like before I got him and what they look like now I don't think anyone would disagree that they look much healthier now.
Again not scientific but from someone who was a sceptic and only took the plunge after a few years watching others I have been constantly amazed and impressed by how my horses' feet have changed and how well they perform. So much so that I am now very passionate about barefoot (have you noticed?) and the reason I went to the States to train with the guy who kicked off the whole performance barefoot thing. The horses' hoof is a remarkable piece of engineering - all it wants to do is grow strong and healthy and will keep trying and trying to do this, even when us humans get in the way.
Last edited:
ester
Not slacking multitasking
thanks mr darcy, would be interesting to see the pics 
Ladylina83
Well-Known Member
Apologies as explained it was aimed at those people that hold a negative judgment on the work of UKNHCP trimmers.
Out of interest how did you go about finding your farrier, I suspect not on a forum but through word of mouth and by finding one that you trusted - and how did you find out about his qualifications and understanding of the horse? - perhaps by first discussing your horses needs before letting him any where near with his hammer. Its just the same - if you are interested start at the top, talk to Sarah I'm sure she would be happy to answer any of your questions - she's written a book designed a hoof boot and stud up in front of 100's of Farriers to explain what she believes in, I'd imagine that if she can handle their questions she'd openly discuss the reservations you have if you were to go in with an open mind.
I only ask the above as someone once reminded me that horse once managed fine with no shoes - admittedly this is in their natural environment travelling over a lot more ground than our modern day leisure/competition horses do but when you look in to barefoot what it is trying to achieve is replication of that natural wear. Having no shoes on enables the hoof to act as the natural shock absorber that it is - having a shoe nailed on to it effectively restricts its shock absorbing capacity. There are pictures online somewhere of a dissected hoof of a shod horse vs. the dissected hoof of a barefoot horse showing the increased blood flow and circulation.... I will try and find them, they always stick in my mind - perhaps they were in a Jamie Jackson book.
I'm a hippy at heart sometimes I choose to trust nature
soloequestrian
Well-Known Member
This is in relation to
If i am to make the commitment of a long period of adjustment, i dont want to make a mistake when so far, being shod, i have no problems, they are sound and healthy and i have no problems with their feet or the shoes.
But I can't seem to find the original post to quote it officially....
Anyway, I came to barefoot by accident. I was out hacking one day, my mare pulled a shoe and didn't miss a stride. I went out and found the shoe and realised that we had done a fair bit of trotting on roads after she'd lost it, with no noticable difference to her movement. It was also the time of foot and mouth and as my farrier had to travel a long distance, I thought he might end up not being able to get to us at all so with the combination of those two things, I took all her shoes off. At the time, our hacks were all either decent paths and verges or roads, so no really stony surfaces, and she really didn't miss a day of work. My farrier gradually taught me to trim her myself and we've been fine ever since. I've since acquired two more horses and because I was so used to barefoot with my mare, they have both had their shoes removed too. Again, there was no real 'transition period' - they both carried on in the same level of work before and after shoe removal. I now live somewhere different and lot of my hacking is hard and stoney so they all wear boots at various times. I'm getting a lot more into diet etc though now so I hope that one day the boots will become superflous.
My point though is that you may well find you can try out barefoot without a huge interruption in your normal work. I know that a transition period is now regarded as part of the barefoot process but with my accidental experiences, outwith the 'barefoot movement, if I can call it that, would suggest that for some (many? healthy?) horses the transition is very brief, although probably dependent on what they are being expected to do.
If i am to make the commitment of a long period of adjustment, i dont want to make a mistake when so far, being shod, i have no problems, they are sound and healthy and i have no problems with their feet or the shoes.
But I can't seem to find the original post to quote it officially....
Anyway, I came to barefoot by accident. I was out hacking one day, my mare pulled a shoe and didn't miss a stride. I went out and found the shoe and realised that we had done a fair bit of trotting on roads after she'd lost it, with no noticable difference to her movement. It was also the time of foot and mouth and as my farrier had to travel a long distance, I thought he might end up not being able to get to us at all so with the combination of those two things, I took all her shoes off. At the time, our hacks were all either decent paths and verges or roads, so no really stony surfaces, and she really didn't miss a day of work. My farrier gradually taught me to trim her myself and we've been fine ever since. I've since acquired two more horses and because I was so used to barefoot with my mare, they have both had their shoes removed too. Again, there was no real 'transition period' - they both carried on in the same level of work before and after shoe removal. I now live somewhere different and lot of my hacking is hard and stoney so they all wear boots at various times. I'm getting a lot more into diet etc though now so I hope that one day the boots will become superflous.
My point though is that you may well find you can try out barefoot without a huge interruption in your normal work. I know that a transition period is now regarded as part of the barefoot process but with my accidental experiences, outwith the 'barefoot movement, if I can call it that, would suggest that for some (many? healthy?) horses the transition is very brief, although probably dependent on what they are being expected to do.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
"Thats part of the problem i have though. When there is a desperate situation the decision is easier- you have nothing to lose. "
Absolutely true. But once you've ridden a horse that a farrier says will never work barefoot over four feet of fixed timber you become determined never to have a horse shod again if you can possibly help it.
"But i have some valuable, sound, young competition horses"
So do I. My dressage horse (who also does lots of road work) is working advanced medium at 8 and is from Grand Prix lines. My hunter is 6 and I have already been made several offers because he performed so well in his first season. Two of my eventers were BE novice with points and capable of going advanced (I wasn't!) I sold an uncompeted KWPN 5 year old last year who passed a 5* barefoot, for rather a lot of money. He was exported. Honestly, the expensive and talented ones can do it too
"and in order to make a decision as to whether to take their shoes off or not i need evidence"
I can send you pictures of myself competing affiliated eventing or jumping huge hedges out hunting on seven different horses if you like. It is me on my horse on the front cover of Feet First, recommended reading for anyone planning to work a horse shoeless.
Depending on when you compete, it can't do any harm to try a period shoeless in the off season. You can always have them put back on. In the old days almost all competition and hunt horses had their shoes off for part of the year when they weren't working.
It isn't an easy option for some competition horses though, don't get me wrong. (A competition diet high in starch and low in fibre, for example, can be very bad news, as can being kept stabled full time.) It's just that the hard evidence you are looking for is going to be a long, long time coming because we are overcoming centuries of indoctrination that horses can't do hard work without shoes on. I was abslolutely furious that it took me 30 years to find out that it wasn't true!!!
On a hard evidence basis, probably the best we can do at the moment is say that if "navicular" horses can often be cured within months of taking off their shoes (and they can, Rockley Farm does it regularly as a business, and I have one of my own here right now who is 8 weeks in and, navicular wise, appears sound already) then surely that indicates pretty darned strongly that shoes are causing damage to many horses? The Rockley scientific study is to be published this year and I really hope that it inspires more research so that people can be reassured that they are doing the right thing for their horses.
Absolutely true. But once you've ridden a horse that a farrier says will never work barefoot over four feet of fixed timber you become determined never to have a horse shod again if you can possibly help it.
"But i have some valuable, sound, young competition horses"
So do I. My dressage horse (who also does lots of road work) is working advanced medium at 8 and is from Grand Prix lines. My hunter is 6 and I have already been made several offers because he performed so well in his first season. Two of my eventers were BE novice with points and capable of going advanced (I wasn't!) I sold an uncompeted KWPN 5 year old last year who passed a 5* barefoot, for rather a lot of money. He was exported. Honestly, the expensive and talented ones can do it too
"and in order to make a decision as to whether to take their shoes off or not i need evidence"
I can send you pictures of myself competing affiliated eventing or jumping huge hedges out hunting on seven different horses if you like. It is me on my horse on the front cover of Feet First, recommended reading for anyone planning to work a horse shoeless.
Depending on when you compete, it can't do any harm to try a period shoeless in the off season. You can always have them put back on. In the old days almost all competition and hunt horses had their shoes off for part of the year when they weren't working.
It isn't an easy option for some competition horses though, don't get me wrong. (A competition diet high in starch and low in fibre, for example, can be very bad news, as can being kept stabled full time.) It's just that the hard evidence you are looking for is going to be a long, long time coming because we are overcoming centuries of indoctrination that horses can't do hard work without shoes on. I was abslolutely furious that it took me 30 years to find out that it wasn't true!!!
On a hard evidence basis, probably the best we can do at the moment is say that if "navicular" horses can often be cured within months of taking off their shoes (and they can, Rockley Farm does it regularly as a business, and I have one of my own here right now who is 8 weeks in and, navicular wise, appears sound already) then surely that indicates pretty darned strongly that shoes are causing damage to many horses? The Rockley scientific study is to be published this year and I really hope that it inspires more research so that people can be reassured that they are doing the right thing for their horses.
lisagg
New User
Hi, yes i do both my horses, I was shown basics by my old trimmer Mel in Wales and then did a course with my new trimmer Abi Hogg which was really brilliant, learnt so much and came away wanting to train as a trimmer. She is doing another intro course this summer, I would definately reccomend to enable you to do a good maintenance trim. check out her website - or type in Abi hogg Trimmer into your browser to get her page up.
www.abihogghoofcare.co.uk
have fun!
Lisa
www.abihogghoofcare.co.uk
have fun!
Lisa
fatpiggy
Well-Known Member
I've done my old girl's feet for 4 years. She is retired so balance isn't so totally vital, and has bad arthritis so getting the front ones done isn't easy for her. I just rasp her around every other weekend or so. If she can't tolerate it, we have another go later on. I wouldn't want a farrier getting cross with her because she can't keep her foot up on the tripod long enough. She was always a doll to shoe, so I know that if she takes the foot down, it is really uncomfortable for her and she isn't just being naughty.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Foot balance is vital for every horse, regardless of age or activity. And if your horse already has a problem then balance is even more important! If your horse has poor foot balance then there will be even more strain on already diseased joints! Maybe if you improved the balance she would be in less discomfort and find it easier to be trimmed.
brucea
Well-Known Member
Foot balance is vital for every horse, regardless of age or activity. And if your horse already has a problem then balance is even more important! If your horse has poor foot balance then there will be even more strain on already diseased joints! Maybe if you improved the balance she would be in less discomfort and find it easier to be trimmed.
I'm with teddyT on this one - that's a very surprising thing to say - poor balance can contribute to mechanical laminitis and other issues.
There is an interesting process that happens when you decide to become "barefoot".
It starts innicently enough with just one book, then two, then spend way too much money on training courses, then buy an anorak, then spend your nights, journeys, holidays and bedtimes reading research papers on anything from navicular to celular anatomy. Sigh - I remember when I used to watch telly!
How many average horse owners can tell you where to look for a Meisenner corpuscle, or refer to a scratch on their car bonnet as a dorsal wall abrasion?
Seriously - most of the barefooters I know are putting a lot of effort into getting educated and learning a lot more about this stuff than the detractors might expect. That's largely because with a shod horse the responsibility belongs to the farrier, with a barefoot horse, it belongs to you.
Oberon
Well-Known Member
And our enthusiasm for the subject when someone asks "why our horses aren't shod and how do they manage" tends to make us sound sooo geeky.
stormybracken
Well-Known Member
When I walk the dogs I don't look at the pretty view, the bluebells appearing, no...I look at the hoof prints on the track to see who's shod and who's barefoot
brucea
Well-Known Member
Stormy was delighted when she realised she had uncovered the tracks of a three-legged horse.
AmyMay
Situation normal
My farrier was always wonderful with a horse that I had that had arthritic hocks. Farriers can be nice, understanding people...........
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
For once I'm going to agree with amymay - most farriers I've come across have been brilliant with the horses.
And also agree with brucea - hoof balance is crucial for all horses, as is being educated about feet. I encourage all my clients to learn as much as they can and always explain fully what I'm doing and why when I trim.
And also agree with brucea - hoof balance is crucial for all horses, as is being educated about feet. I encourage all my clients to learn as much as they can and always explain fully what I'm doing and why when I trim.
AmyMay
Situation normal
**** Yaaaayyyyy *****
But, thankfully, it is true. And I would like to think that anyone involved with horses would have both the professionalism and the attitude to ensure that a horse with any sort of problem is treated sympathetically.
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
Foot balance is vital for every horse, regardless of age or activity. And if your horse already has a problem then balance is even more important! If your horse has poor foot balance then there will be even more strain on already diseased joints! Maybe if you improved the balance she would be in less discomfort and find it easier to be trimmed.
Could not agree more! I am fairly shocked that someone could actually think it wasn't and shows great ignorance.
I have an ancient retired Anglo Arab who has various issues (including an old break) my farrier is kindness itself with her, as she obviously has issues with raising the affected hindleg, to state that farriers would not have the patience to deal with an old horse with arthritic issues is doing them a great disservice!
Triskar
Well-Known Member
I know it's only anecdotal evidence, but after transitioning a 20 year old 14.2 ex JA pony (retired from jumping and put in foal due to a tendon injury a couple of years before we bought her) to barefoot, the constant tendon problems she sufered with completely disappeared. Yes, she had an abscess in each of her feet - presumably due to the amount of necrotic tissue in her feet, and we did use hoof boots to transition her and for long distance rides - she increased her hoof boot size by 2 over the rest of her life (she died 2 years ago at 30). Poor little mare must have been the equine equivalent of Chinese foot binding in horseshoes for 20 years! She never had a single day's unsoundness from the date we removed her shoes, not even with the abscesses, and prior to the removal she was unsound more often than not....
We use hoof boots in front for our flat footed TB if he's going to be ridden on stoney tracks; for schooling, roads and the woods he's sound barefoot. The 14.2 mare's daughter is unshod and only wears boots for long distance, and my elderly Arab (goes without saying!) has feet the size of dinnerplates that are as hard as iron, so never wears boots.
My husband did a trimming course about 10 years ago - he subsequently had the chief instructor of the local farriery college out to check his work a few times, and now he does all their feet. Hopefully the 14.2 mare's baby grandson will have rockhard feet too!
We use hoof boots in front for our flat footed TB if he's going to be ridden on stoney tracks; for schooling, roads and the woods he's sound barefoot. The 14.2 mare's daughter is unshod and only wears boots for long distance, and my elderly Arab (goes without saying!) has feet the size of dinnerplates that are as hard as iron, so never wears boots.
My husband did a trimming course about 10 years ago - he subsequently had the chief instructor of the local farriery college out to check his work a few times, and now he does all their feet. Hopefully the 14.2 mare's baby grandson will have rockhard feet too!
Ladylina83
Well-Known Member
teddyt
Well-Known Member
A classic example of why i am sceptical of the barefoot movement- people selling the concept that you can do an intro course for a few days and you will be able to trim your horses feet.
This sort of thing does the industry no favours and undermines those that are trying to be professional 
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
A classic example of why i am sceptical of the barefoot movement- people selling the concept that you can do an intro course for a few days and you will be able to trim your horses feet.
Have to agree with you there teddyt. These short courses are not something the organistion I'm with (AANHCP) supports in any way shape or form. I'm happy for clients to get a Riders Rasp and tidy up any flakes or chips which could cause damage if left until my next visit but that's as much as I like them to do. Rasps, nippers and knives can do a lot of damage very quickly and easily (to both horse and human) if you don't know how to handle them. I wouldn't get my EDT to give me a crash course on rasping teeth and then go home and do my own horses.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
3DE
Well-Known Member
My barefoot trimmer has given me and old (bluntish so I can't overdo it) rasp to tidy up the feet between visits. I don't trim but I do remove little nicks that could turn into cracks and keep the hoof base even (I get rid of the little nobbles that you get by the time of the next visit).
So no I don't trim but I do maintain - a bit like filing my own nails in between manicures (oh to dream...)
So no I don't trim but I do maintain - a bit like filing my own nails in between manicures (oh to dream...)
brucea
Well-Known Member
Made me laugh - talking about nails
One of my friends, who has a fruit loop mare, gets me to trim the mare - long story, but the mare likes me and hates almost every other human!
She said "I wanted to ask you, but didn't know how to bring it up, do you wear nail varnish to protect your nails from the rasp?"
I'm a bloke, so seeing nail varnish was probably making her wonder! I then explained to her that I am a serious jazz guitar player, and I wear hardener on the nails on one hand so they hold up to playing relatively heavy strings!!!! Without it the nails would be really shreded!
It's clear, not red, or anything! I don't know what she thought, but the way she asked had me thinking....