Why I'm giving up - a YM's perspective

[Disillusioned]

For info, I am a long time forum user under a different name but needed to be anonymous for this.

So, I am a very experienced livery yard manager and for several years, I have been renting and running a yard. I provide full and part livery – full includes turning out, bringing in, mucking out, bedding, feed and hay (good quality, ad lib); part is the same but without mucking out and bedding. (The terms of my lease don’t allow me to offer DIY.) The horses are turned out every day of the year, I have a decent 20x60 school, good hacking and the yard is well located for local venues.

There have been many threads which have culminated in this post, particularly the recent one regarding costs of extras and what people consider a reasonable charge/service. I’ve got a few points to make, so please bear with me!

Firstly, the cost of livery in general. My prices are quite reasonable for my area of the country, and I provide a high standard of care. However, when I put the prices up by £30 per month last year (previous rise was 3 years prior), there were mutterings from some of my owners. (The rise was due to costs of hay and feed rising over time and increases in my yard rent and insurance amongst other things, so quite justifiable.)

As all yard owners/managers know, we cannot charge what would actually be a realistic price for livery because only a minority would then be able to afford it! I tried to think of something to put it into context against and the best I could come up with was renting a room in a house. Round here, you can’t get a room for less than £450 per month. If you think of DIY livery as your horse ‘lodging’ on someone else’s property, how many people could afford that as a starting point?

And then the cost of extras for DIYs/what is actually included in the service for part/full livery....

There have been comments about how long it should take to pick out feet and that it is an unskilled job. When I pick a horse’s feet out, I’m not just removing mud and stones. As I run my hand down the horse’s leg to pick the foot up, I’m automatically checking for any heat/cuts/swelling, etc. I’m also checking the shoes – all there/twisted/loose/risen clenches? Any sign of heat in the hoof/bruising/thrush? If unshod, any cracks? All in the few minutes the job takes me. Surely this is worth the £1.50 some people begrudge paying?

Rug changes – not just a case of drag one off and chuck another on. Again, I’m checking - is the rug damaged/rubbing/leaking? Is the horse too hot/cold? Making sure I’m putting the appropriate rug on for that horse. As well as giving the horse a general condition check.

Turning out/bringing in. I’m giving the horse a general once over here too. Is it stiff/lame/any cuts or knocks? Filled legs? Eaten breakfast/last night’s hay? Drunk usual amount? And obviously, if there are any injuries, I will treat them accordingly and notify the owner.

If the horse is young/green/ill-mannered, then I am by default also training it to be polite and easy to deal with for no extra cost.

I know all my horses’ beds regardless of whether I muck them out or not. So I can tell if the bed is too neat/messy/dirty/clean for that horse. I know all my horses’ characters and quirks and what is normal appearance and behaviour for each one. Therefore I will notice quickly if something isn’t right and deal with it appropriately.

Taking into account the above, and the time spent on indirect labour such as poo-picking, general field/yard/arena maintenance, admin, etc, a basic daily labour charge of £10 per horse on my yard wouldn’t seem unreasonable. But that would be £300 per horse per month before any other costs. And would then need a bit more added onto the full liveries for my mucking them out.

Ah yes, the other costs. There are the obvious ones such as hay, feed, etc. But also things such as the yard rent, insurance, rates, maintaining/replacing yard equipment and fencing, maintaining first aid kits, fire extinguisher checks, National Insurance, etc. Some years I pay tax, others my earnings haven’t gone above the tax-free allowance. And if a box is empty, then my income drops by a few hundred a month, but there is actually minimal difference in the outgoings.

If you add the £300 labour charge to, say, a £400 ‘lodging’ (to use my previous comparison) charge to cover all other costs, that would put my part livery at £700 per month. A lot more than what it is at present and considerably more than my current full livery price! But if I was able to charge this sort of money then I would actually be able to earn a reasonable living.

And there is the issue. I now cannot long-term earn a reasonable living unless people’s ideas of what livery should realistically cost move forward. I never expected to make a fortune and I know this sort of work is a ‘lifestyle choice’. But please bear in mind that without people like me making this choice or property owners choosing to provide equine facilities, whether a basic field or all the bells and whistles, people would not be able to make the ‘lifestyle choice’ to own a horse. I do genuinely love my job, and I know I am good at it – my happy relaxed horses and owners are proof – but unfortunately appreciation and job satisfaction don’t pay the bills. I have 25+ years experience, qualifications, have over the years managed yards of 30+ horses and teams of staff. In many other industries, I’d be on pretty good money. But not in horses.

Unfortunately I can no longer afford, or want, to subsidise other people’s horses.

The reason for the new user name and for not going into more detail about me and my yard is so hopefully no-one will recognise me.

This is because, on 1st August, I will be handing a letter to the owners of my yard giving the required period of notice to terminate my lease. And depending on what the owners then decide to do with the yard, I may have to give notice to my liveries, and I wouldn’t want anyone to find out from here before I tell them myself.

 

[maisie06]

Good for you.

Only in the equine world do people expect others to subsidise their expensive hobby. I too read the "extras" thread and could not believe the whining over £1.50 to pick out hooves.....back in the day when I had horses I used the services of one of the girls on my yard when I worked a late shift... £3 per horse for check/feed/hay in the field (lived out) was a BARGAIN and saved me going up at a ridiculous hour groping around in the dark..not to mention petrol, yet some on the yard though this was expensive WTF???

As for the price of feed and especially hay, if you can't afford it - sell the bloody horse - anyone whining about hay prices should be made to make hay...cutting, turning, baling and stacking, if they knew first hand the work that went into each bale they soon shut up. Many will happily pay a fiver for a bag of treat yet have a blue fit if a bag of feed goes up by 10p..

OP I know exactly where you are coming from on this and wish you the best in the future and don't blame you at all for getting out of the game.

 

[splashgirl45]

you sound like a good caring ym and it is a shame you feel you cannot carry on due to the money situation. due to lack of money i keep my horse on complete diy and when taking stable rent,bedding,hay and feed costs this adds up to approx £400 per month and i do absolutely everything, so i appreciate that if you are providing all of this the liveries needed to realise that if they want their horses looked after they would have to pay quite a bit more than £400 per month...hope you get through this without feeling too upset and good luck for the future...

 

[misst]

Living in the southeast I am amazed that you consider the above charges expensive. I have, over the years, tried several times to work out how yards are made to pay and always considered that I had a good price for my livery. We have been DIY, assisted DIY, part and for a short time full livery. Whilst full livery is very expensive it is still value for money when you look at costs involved. Sadly I don't have any horses at present but if ever the time comes to have/share/help with another I shall need to look at costs carefully as hay and bedding seems to be going up and up in price.
It is such a pity when good YM have to give up. Several yards around here have closed over the last 5 years and most of them due to not being able to make ends meet. I am always shocked when people complain about the cost of their livery. If they tried to rent a yard for themselves they would soon stop moaning about cost and be moaning about the time and energy needed to sustain a safe pleasant environment for themselves and their horses.
I hope it all works well for you and that your liveries appreciate what you have done for them.

 

[McFluff]

So sorry to read this. It sounds like your owners have lost a great set up and support. As an employer, I know and understand all the costs in providing a service (in any industry) - and sadly this isn't always understood by consumers. Not at all helped by the fact that there will always be others offering things 'cheaper' - not sustainably though.
Personally I willingly pay a good rate for my livery - I see and understand the costs to provide the level of care my horse gets. I expect an annual increase as staff costs go up every year. I'm always surprised when others don't expect to pay more. Maybe it's just because I'm so aware of staff costs and the costs of running a service business.
Good luck in whatever you choose to do next. I hope things work out for you and all your clients.

 

[marmalade76]

It has to be accepted that no one will ever make a living out of running a livery yard, if you tried you simply wouldn't get the custom, the majority just wouldn't be able to afford to keep horses. It needs to be a side line, treated as a bit of pocket money or to cover the cost of your own horses. Sad but true.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am sad for you
I don't understand why people value the skills of the people caring for their horses so little .

 

[dozzie]

Totally understand.

 

[Disillusioned]

Thank you all for your supportive replies. It's reassuring to see that some people do appreciate the true costs involved.

misst - my current charges are comparable to other yards in my area. If I was able to fill my yard with people paying a more realistic £700 a month then I could afford to stay in business! It seems that only the local posh competition yard can get away with anywhere near that sort of charge, purely because of who they are - they cater for the stereotypical "all the gear/no idea" middle-aged dressage women with rich husbands and too much time on their hands. I visit that place fairly regularly when grooming for a friend and the care and stable management is quite frankly of a poor standard and you certainly don't get what you pay for - I wouldn't keep a horse there.

 

[dominobrown]

I agree with OP and thinks its such a shame.
I do think the whole industry needs a wake up call. I think because actual horses themselves are relatively cheap, however the cost to care and produce them has gone up, and then people whine about £2500 for an all-rounder!
Another problem is that a lot of people might be good riders, but have not worked on a yard. They have no idea what it actually costs to run a business.
You end up with what we have up here... hardly any livery yards and barely on 'proper' ones, but the proper ones which do charge more are full as its all about demand and supply!

 

[be positive]

It has to be accepted that no one will ever make a living out of running a livery yard, if you tried you simply wouldn't get the custom, the majority just wouldn't be able to afford to keep horses. It needs to be a side line, treated as a bit of pocket money or to cover the cost of your own horses. Sad but true.

It should not be accepted, why should people have their hobby subsidised they won't get to take part in any other hobbies at a rate that leaves the providers out of pocket, if people cannot afford to own a horse and pay a decent amount to allow the YO to make more than pocket money then they should not have a horse, sad but true!!

I run a small yard, luckily I own the property and it is now paid for so my income is just about enough to make ends meet, if I had rent or a mortgage to pay then I would have to either put the prices up well out of the reach of most of my clients or close down I would rather it empty than running at a complete loss, like the OP I have many years experience and think that many owners do expect the YO to provide a good service yet want it for as little as possible, fair enough they want it to be competitive but the way livery is going I think many places will close, prices in many areas will rise and horse owning will become far more expensive over the next few years.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I am sorry OP, it's hard to give up something you find so rewarding. You're preaching to the converted here-horsey people are the tightest I've ever dealt with. I've worked in three aspects of the equine industry and have sworn to never run a business dependent on horse owners ever again.


Anyone thinking £1.50 to pick out feet should then be made to do it for 20 horses-including the wet, muddy, wet and muddy feathered ones, the ignorant ones, the ones that can't hold up their own feet and the ar53hole ones.

 

[Disillusioned]

It has to be accepted that no one will ever make a living out of running a livery yard, if you tried you simply wouldn't get the custom, the majority just wouldn't be able to afford to keep horses. It needs to be a side line, treated as a bit of pocket money or to cover the cost of your own horses. Sad but true.

But running a decent yard properly is a full time job - how am I meant to find the time and energy to earn another income? And why should I have to accept only earning "pocket money" when so many other people earn enough to be able to afford to have horses on livery?

And I don't currently have my own horse - I cannot afford to have a box permanently non-earning.

 

[dozzie]

It should not be accepted, why should people have their hobby subsidised they won't get to take part in any other hobbies at a rate that leaves the providers out of pocket, if people cannot afford to own a horse and pay a decent amount to allow the YO to make more than pocket money then they should not have a horse, sad but true!!

I run a small yard, luckily I own the property and it is now paid for so my income is just about enough to make ends meet, if I had rent or a mortgage to pay then I would have to either put the prices up well out of the reach of most of my clients or close down I would rather it empty than running at a complete loss, like the OP I have many years experience and think that many owners do expect the YO to provide a good service yet want it for as little as possible, fair enough they want it to be competitive but the way livery is going I think many places will close, prices in many areas will rise and horse owning will become far more expensive over the next few years.

Totally agree.

 

[marmalade76]

It should not be accepted, why should people have their hobby subsidised they won't get to take part in any other hobbies at a rate that leaves the providers out of pocket, if people cannot afford to own a horse and pay a decent amount to allow the YO to make more than pocket money then they should not have a horse, sad but true!!

I run a small yard, luckily I own the property and it is now paid for so my income is just about enough to make ends meet, if I had rent or a mortgage to pay then I would have to either put the prices up well out of the reach of most of my clients or close down I would rather it empty than running at a complete loss, like the OP I have many years experience and think that many owners do expect the YO to provide a good service yet want it for as little as possible, fair enough they want it to be competitive but the way livery is going I think many places will close, prices in many areas will rise and horse owning will become far more expensive over the next few years.

What will happen if all livery yards charged as the OP suggests is horse ownership will go back to how it was in the old days - only the rich and those who own land will be able to own horses = very limited custom. Some might say that would be a good thing. Makes no odds to me, never kept my horses on a livery yard.

 

[Haz:)]

Sorry to hear about this OP. You seem very genuine - and have many qualities you want in a YO!!

I can't afford anything other than DIY. My yard only offers that - it's £15 a week (I have 2 horses and a mini which is £5). I pay to have 0.5 acre, 2 stables - although a livery decided not to let the YO know that she was staying permanently, so I'm sharing a stable (which I'll probably rant about eventually on here) and the. Another stable. We get cold water & electric, a tack room and access to a hay shed. That's all. Yet I hear my fellow liveries complaining - how they wish we had a ménage, how they think it should be cheaper. It shocks me - and I'd be happy to pay a little more for what we get - not that I could afford it really, which is why I do DIY.

There is another yard in my village, that offers Part and Full, a ménage and all those great things. However - the YO decides which horse goes where, every horse must come in each night, the turnout is tiny, and then if your new you have to have an assistant come up the yard with you for the first 3 months!! Plus it's about £250 a week, YM is rude and unapproachable anyway. If it was a good deal and the liveries where nice it would be fine. I think that ive got it pretty cushy on my yard.

I think that if they're moaning about paying £1.50 for picking out hooves - they are ridiculous, I say do it yourself then. I think that's a deal but that's just me.

 

[Shooting Star]

I'm sorry it's come to this for you OP, I'm always amazed at how low people expect to get livery cover for and if people are putting their trust in you to look after their beloved beasts then the least that they can do is expect to pay at a level that allows you to make a living

I'm in Surrey where we have high costs any way but there are two yards locally I know of that offer 7 day part livery (hay, bedding, feed, turn out, bring in and full muck out) for under £350 a month - I cannot see how they can ever be expected to make a living at that level and often wonder how they actually manage to break even.

At the other end of the spectrum there is the £1200-1400 per month livery and I just do not know how anybody can possibly afford that either!

Most are around the £600-£700 mark which I guess just about works if the YO actually owns the land but if they're renting too then that's also not enough.

I hope you can manage to find a new job / career that you enjoy and that allows you a better income too x

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Shame about your decision OP but you have to do what's best for you and love the life you want. Here in central belt Scotland I am £160 4weekly to keep my horse, that's livery, hay, feed etc. In summer I am £72 4 weekly as I have no hay/bedding to buy and I don't pay the turnout fee and reduced livery as he is out 24/7 from April/May to Nov. I pay about £60 per year for trims for my horse, he is uninsured due to old age.

I am DIY on a very small yard (max 10 horses) with all year turnout, great hacking but no school/menage. Doesn't bother me as there are plenty of rental facilities around us. I personally couldn't keep at horse at livery for £350pm that's my rent for my flat Pm. I kept two horses for under £350 pm a few years ago. My yard makes its own hay and locally buys straw straight off the field and buys shavings by the pallet at discount due to selling local feed store hay.

I understand YOs need to make a living and it sounds as though having a horse whilst living in England Would be something I would baulk at personally if that is the going rate. England does seem to have an issue with grazing and land availability, I do find it quite coincidental that up here the yards with the most expensive livery seem to be those with the least amount of turnout but the most facilities. Seems to be the same in England going by most people's posts about yards and yard hunting south of the border.

 

[LynH]

I'm always amazed that grass livery is cheaper than diy esp in the South East. Land is so expensive and you need about 2-3 times as much per horse so the cost for grass only should be higher.
I'm often asked if I will do livery, which I won't, one lady who was pretty pushy asked if I did do it what would I charge. When I said £300pm she got quite stroppy, even when I pointed out how much it would cost me to provide it inc facilities. The insurance only is £50pm. It is frustrating that people run places without proper insurance or taking a proper wage as it makes it harder for others.
The nearest full livery yard to me charges £1278pm and most others charge £650-700 for part livery.

 

[AdorableAlice]

But running a decent yard properly is a full time job - how am I meant to find the time and energy to earn another income? And why should I have to accept only earning "pocket money" when so many other people earn enough to be able to afford to have horses on livery?

And I don't currently have my own horse - I cannot afford to have a box permanently non-earning.

Exactly. You have worked long and hard to ensure the horses in your care are looked after. I may be wrong and I hope I am, but I would think there has been no opportunity to earn enough to fund a private pension or any other form of 'old age/rainy day' pot.

The people who are earning enough to have their horses on livery will be in employment that provides the pension, the flexi hours, the sick pay etc etc that enables them to pay for livery - but many will still want the services for peanuts.

it is not something we might think about when we are fit and able enough to put in 15 hour days seven days a week doing horses but as age creeps in and the body starts to find the work harder the reality becomes apparent. OP, I hope you are able to enjoy doing something else after closing your yard.

 

[mytwofriends]

What a great post, OP. Hopefully it'll alert people to what conscientious YO's do for them and their precious horses and they'll think twice about whinging.

I saw the thread you mentioned about £1.50 for picking out hooves and how it was an unskilled task. To do it properly (as you described) takes quite a few minutes, and that's with a mannerly horse. One on our yard is a brute and enjoys resting his whole body weight on you - that's if he'll pick his feet up at all - and he has such long feathers you have to wrestle those separately to even see his soles. Takes a full 5 minutes minimum. It's back breaking too.

Anyway, I digress. Everything you've outlined is so true. Have a regular Joe (no offence intended to anyone called Joe!) run a yard for just a week, dealing with prissy or totally hands-off owners (both as bad as each other in my opinion), working in all weathers, dealing with less than perfect horses, not covering their expenses or having a life, and see how they like it.

OP, your decision is sad, but totally understandable. Your liveries will be devastated but you'll have a massive weight off your shoulders. A roll reversal. How nice for a change!

Good luck with your new life, and make sure you enjoy it!

 

[Flora]

Totally agree with you! I have a small yard with decent size indoor school, all year round turnout and decent hacking. I had a girl come last WK to view the yard which she liked very much, especially the stables as they are quite big. After moaning about the yard she is on and how you can't ride in the school and grazing is rubbish, she then turned round and said , oh you work out £10 more a WK for haylage. Well stay at the crappy yard you are on instead of wasting my time when you were told the prices previously before you came.
I find that people are trying to find the cheapest yard with all the facilities for next to nothing .
I have a very posh centre near me who charge a fortune and the horses are looked after by numpties. My daughter kept her 18.1hh horse there for a while and was paying £600 a month for full livery for her horse to be kept in a 10 x 10 stable, no turn out and she still had to go up each day as he never had water, enough bedding or haylage. She lasted a few months but they are always full! It seems people will pay to say they have their horse at this place when they don't have clue rather than have a yard owner like op that goes out there way to have happy,well cared for horses.
I have also found that while doing livery, I have never found as many rude and ignorant people in the horsey world. When I get an enquiry about livery, I spend a while emailing prices and answering any questions, then take time out to show people the yard and they don't even have the decency to send a text to say thanks but no thanks!
Good luck op in what you choose to do next and I might not be far behind you!

 

[Flora]

Loops posted twice!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

OP, I totally understand you pulling out.
I have my own yard (so no rents etc).

Back in 1990 I was charging £25pw for DIY - had own stable, storage area and own paddock, or in with mine (their choice).
£65 pw for (what was then) full livery in week from Mon - Fri, and me feeding and turning out at weekends (inc bedding, hay & basic feed), with owners doing the rest of chores over weekend.

Rock on 26 yrs later, and livery is virtually the same cost for same benefit!
People want to own, but are not realistic about costs.
I would make a loss on anything coming in at that price now (water and muck heap charges, plus harrowing, rolling, and field maintenance/repairs).

I have only 2 now on my yard (both mine) and 4-5 empty stables, I only occasionally take 'emergency' livieries for a short set time, or have those for turn away summer grazing for a few weeks only.

Good luck in what you decide to do in the future x

 

[zaminda]

I'm not surprised. Its sad but people who own horses seem to think that people who work with them should do it for love. I do mine for love, and want cold hard cash to do other peoples. As to if horsey staff should be entitled to earn more than minimum wage, well its dangerous and hard work, so yes we should earn more than a postie, who gets rather more than minimum wage, good holidays and sick pay. Funnily enough, freelancing is quite well paid. People who own their own but either rent a yard, or own their own are rather more realistic as to what it costs!

 

[pixie]

Yes, and then you get told that your smart, airy, newly built yard is "too expensive" for charging £5 more per week than local yard with old, falling apart stables and poor grazing management. You get complained at because your homegrown meadow hay is more expensive than the ragworty bales of hay that killed one of their horses. Horsey people are bloody cheap :/

 

[JillA]

Couldn't agree more - if you are trying to make a living and cover rent as well it must be all but impossible. I have a few friends' horses at mine, to help with costs, but they never recognise the cost of maintaining a property - I have just spent almost £5k resurfacing the yard and drive and having land drains installed, due to the pressure from extra vehicles coming and going and extra hooves poaching gateways. Not to mention repairs to buildings, replacing consumables and paying for water and electricity.
Sadly though the knock on effect of horse owners having to pay a realistic amount will be a further depression in the value of horses, and more horses being neglected by those who bought because keeping them seemed to be cheap as chips. Good luck in whatever you choose to do instead.

 

[Goldenstar]

Couldn't agree more - if you are trying to make a living and cover rent as well it must be all but impossible. I have a few friends' horses at mine, to help with costs, but they never recognise the cost of maintaining a property - I have just spent almost £5k resurfacing the yard and drive and having land drains installed, due to the pressure from extra vehicles coming and going and extra hooves poaching gateways. Not to mention repairs to buildings, replacing consumables and paying for water and electricity.
Sadly though the knock on effect of horse owners having to pay a realistic amount will be a further depression in the value of horses, and more horses being neglected by those who bought because keeping them seemed to be cheap as chips. Good luck in whatever you choose to do instead.

Your right .
I think over the next decade or so we could be heading to a too many horse welfare night mare .
Everywhere I look land near towns and villages is being built on and the small parcels of land that are run as liverys are perfect for this .
many people are paying to little for livery for it to be of a good standard and have no grasp of the economics of land value but it's a reality that going to hit livery hard in the next ten years.
If we ever get round to licensing the provision of horse care ( which will include DIY provisions as well) there's going to masses of homeless horses as it will hasten the contraction in the number of yards particularly the small ones , which sadly often are the nicest for the horses .

 

[Goldenstar]

Couldn't agree more - if you are trying to make a living and cover rent as well it must be all but impossible. I have a few friends' horses at mine, to help with costs, but they never recognise the cost of maintaining a property - I have just spent almost £5k resurfacing the yard and drive and having land drains installed, due to the pressure from extra vehicles coming and going and extra hooves poaching gateways. Not to mention repairs to buildings, replacing consumables and paying for water and electricity.
Sadly though the knock on effect of horse owners having to pay a realistic amount will be a further depression in the value of horses, and more horses being neglected by those who bought because keeping them seemed to be cheap as chips. Good luck in whatever you choose to do instead.

Your right .
I think over the next decade or so we could be heading to a too many horse welfare night mare .
Everywhere I look land near towns and villages is being built on and the small parcels of land that are run as liverys are perfect for this .
many people are paying to little for livery for it to be of a good standard and have no grasp of the economics of land value but it's a reality that going to hit livery hard in the next ten years.
If we ever get round to licensing the provision of horse care ( which will include DIY provisions as well) there's going to masses of homeless horses as it will hasten the contraction in the number of yards particularly the small ones , which sadly often are the nicest for the horses .

 

[stormox]

On that original post about charges and £1.50 to pick out feet, there was only a few of us who stood up and said the charges were fair. We were well outnumbered! I see theyve all gone quiet now on this post. WELL SAID, and hopefully theyve got the point now - no YO should be working for peanuts and it is a skilled job and a big responsibility.