Will it never end?

[Parrotperson]

Is this about horses not having enough space to roam? I've been grazing 10+ acres with an average of 2+ horses for 30 years and I have never even looked for any of this dangerous stuff. I didn't even know about it. I think maybe horses with enough choice don't eat stuff that's dangerous? That brings its own problems, of course.

I'll probably walk out and find 2 dead horses tomorrow now!
.

having just read through this thread I'm astonished I didn't kill all my horses over the years!

Is this a recent thing? Because years and years ago (think when God was a boy) we would never worry about anything except ragwort.

As to us breeding this type of thing into our horses I think really evolution requires millions of years for genetic changes surely? Not just thirty or forty? Although disclaimer: I'm no geneticist.

 

[PurBee]

My winter field (planted May 2020) currently looks like...
View attachment 78694

I'm not feeling particularly confident about it. But we'll just have to see. My summer field that there's been on since we got here is completely scalped and is going to need some serious TLC. Again, I just feel like I'm failing all the time.

I wouldnt mind my winter field to have a happy chappie on a shiny red steed in it! ??? Magical land management skills PF! Hehee..

The grass looks hungry, as they say, light green, needing nutrition, yet it could be a PH imbalance locking out nutrients. Have you tested the PH?
I have literal peat soils in some fields…similar to scotland here with rainfall, low sunshine hours etc - lowest ph 4,- best ph 6.5 - i re-seeded one field and it germinated then died the following year due to a very wet year. So i then drained the lot with a massive digger job of the whole acreage. Then re-seeded again. 2nd time worked. I put horse manure on it after 4 inches of growth and it greened up. This particular field Ph 6-6.5 - This year i scattered lime/magnesium pellets. That really helped growth this year.

Here’s my attempts - minus happy chap on shiny horse!
Seeded april 2020 - after a wet winter, rotavated, grass seed mix, then rolled.
I used 20kg seed per acre to get a really dense grass sward for horses.
Still really challenging wetter peat area in very near foreground, before hitting more loamy soil further down - that was after draining too - it used to be swampy!
3rd pic 1 year later looking from other end of the long field. Its amazing how its tranformed yet it took some figuring out and much trial and error. Its firm underfoot for horses - they gallop it now. I used to have to keep them off it as too boggy for horses.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Hmmm. I could do with soil testing then. Have I missed the boat for improvement this winter? My plan was to graze half days through winter even if it means feeding lots of hay as I think there's plenty of hay to be had locally this year. To NOT poo pick and to harrow the poo in in spring. Soil test early spring and take advice on what to put on it then. That was the plan.

I was also going to dig into the very bottom of my muck heap (1 year rotted down at the bottom) and spread that on my summer field, plus use a garden mulcher to mulch up all the waste hay I've accumulated and spread that on the field as well. Again soil test and take advice about liming etc in spring.

 

[SEL]

I've just bought 6 acres - 5 acres are over grazed and 2 paddocks never poo picked. I know on one of those FB forums they say leave the poo there but this has piles which have just killed the grass underneath so I've warned my OH that his exercise this week involves a scoop and barrow. Can't get a tractor and harrow in there and I've no idea of the worming history of the horses that were on it, so for now we'll get it up. Soil test is on the list but I have a feeling it'll be a 'make do with what you have' kind of winter

@PF - I'll be joining you in the 3am worrying about paddock maintenance and poisonous plants sleepless nights!

 

[PurBee]

Hmmm. I could do with soil testing then. Have I missed the boat for improvement this winter? My plan was to graze half days through winter even if it means feeding lots of hay as I think there's plenty of hay to be had locally this year. To NOT poo pick and to harrow the poo in in spring. Soil test early spring and take advice on what to put on it then. That was the plan.

I was also going to dig into the very bottom of my muck heap (1 year rotted down at the bottom) and spread that on my summer field, plus use a garden mulcher to mulch up all the waste hay I've accumulated and spread that on the field as well. Again soil test and take advice about liming etc in spring.

Your plan sounds feasible.

once temps get below 10 degrees grass growth slows, and pretty much stops at 5 degrees, (except for certain grasses ‘bred’ for the very northern latitudes that even grow at 1-2 degrees!) so for my area, beginning of november its consistently 10 and below daytime and definitely at night. So all land soil work stops to do with adding nutrition, as it’ll only be wasted, washed away - grass cant make use of it due to very slow growth/cold/wet. etc.

So as we’re just beginning of sept. You could flick some rotted muck on the winter patch to green it up and boost its strength/growth for winter grazing. There still 6 weeks of reasonable temps for it to be uptaken by the grass and utilised.

Do you know a local farmer with a massive pile of cow dung thats rotted down and has a muck spreader? It’s worth paying just to get the job done and get the grass off to a good start.
I attempted spreading muck by fork and wheelbarrow and theres no amount of money you could offer me to ever, ever, EVER do that effin’ job again!! ?
Farmers tend to have fresh cow dung available than rotted dung. I prefer rotted, but if youre not going to be grazing it for 2 months any pathogens from fresh cow muck should have finished their life cycle and died off by the time grazing takes place.

There’s laws regarding cut-off point end of year to apply field fertilisers and start date in spring, depending on your area depends on the date. The laws are to prevent high nitrates from field fertilisers during dormant growth season washing into watercourses.

Your spring plan sounds good - spread whatever rotted horse manure you have. I personally wouldnt put old mouldy mulched hay onto grassland in spring before grazing it - the moulds and composting bacteria need to be gone before horses lips are anywhere near it. Yet the mould, in a damper climate concerns me moreso. I would mulch the old hay you have to throw out and add it over winter to the horse poop pile - it’ll rot down well with the bacteria in the poop.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm leary about putting cow muck on due to a connection with botulism I read about! Another thing. ?

 

[PurBee]

I'm leary about putting cow muck on due to a connection with botulism I read about! Another thing. ?

oh gosh, i hadnt read that….dont get me started! ?

your idea of not poo picking winter field and flick it in the spring is worth doing. As its your private place you know your worming burden, protocol etc.

For a quick feed fix - look into organic NPK pellets - often delivered and sold in 1 tonne bags. You want more N for leaf growth than P,K but generally i find an mixed source organic pellet gives not only NPK but also minerals and trace minerals.

Prices vary but for 150-200 you could have a tonne of pellets which takes, by hand and bucket, half a day to scatter around 2 acres. Its a light feed yet, i lightly fed mine, would have preferred more, but the growth was amazing just with a scattering. (For 200, i can buy 20 bags of haylage, for 20 days feed for 2 horses, so id rather spend that money on organic fertiliser to give me much more than 20 days field grazing food)

As you have your own land- have another composting huge pile that are other materials taken from the land - leaves, tree trimmings, hedge trimmings, old hay, cardboard, wood fire ash, etc…its your own superfeed fertilizer pile which when rotted down is so full of various nutrients only a scattering is needed to boost growth.

 

[PapaverFollis]

It was probably fresh slurry that horses were geazed on immediately or something but it was enough to put me off.

I need a plan for sure. I think the alsike clover likes acidic soil so that's definitely part of the issue.

 

[palo1]

I'm leary about putting cow muck on due to a connection with botulism I read about! Another thing. ?

Well rotted cattle muck is the best and probably safest way to help your soil fertility; the risk of botulism is tiny with well rotted manure that is given several weeks to be taken into the ground. This also improves and supports invertebrate diversity which is totally a good thing from every angle! The problem you may find is that farmers don't always have enough muck to sell it. But if you can find some, take it!! PH testing can be done now and that will also help to tell you if you need lime, potash or something else. Longer term, if you improve the ph and fertility you are less likely to have toxin related problems and some of the clover/buttercup type menaces don't especially like that healthy environment either. As far north as you are, the growing season is shorter but that does mean your fallow time is 'easier' in that you have longer to put stuff on the land and for it to make it's way down in. Can you get a local contractor to come and have a look to suggest what might be the best way to boost things if that is needed ? They can usually tell you what to put on, when and in what quantity too.

 

[palo1]

I wouldnt mind my winter field to have a happy chappie on a shiny red steed in it! ??? Magical land management skills PF! Hehee..

The grass looks hungry, as they say, light green, needing nutrition, yet it could be a PH imbalance locking out nutrients. Have you tested the PH?
I have literal peat soils in some fields…similar to scotland here with rainfall, low sunshine hours etc - lowest ph 4,- best ph 6.5 - i re-seeded one field and it germinated then died the following year due to a very wet year. So i then drained the lot with a massive digger job of the whole acreage. Then re-seeded again. 2nd time worked. I put horse manure on it after 4 inches of growth and it greened up. This particular field Ph 6-6.5 - This year i scattered lime/magnesium pellets. That really helped growth this year.

Here’s my attempts - minus happy chap on shiny horse!
Seeded april 2020 - after a wet winter, rotavated, grass seed mix, then rolled.
I used 20kg seed per acre to get a really dense grass sward for horses.
Still really challenging wetter peat area in very near foreground, before hitting more loamy soil further down - that was after draining too - it used to be swampy!
3rd pic 1 year later looking from other end of the long field. Its amazing how its tranformed yet it took some figuring out and much trial and error. Its firm underfoot for horses - they gallop it now. I used to have to keep them off it as too boggy for horses.
View attachment 78703View attachment 78704View attachment 78705

Looks lovely now!

 

[PapaverFollis]

I have lots of insects and things to be fair. Little beetles in every poop I collect. And ridiculous amounts of small birds everywhere that must be eating something. Also have voles and at least one stoat AND a weasel on the croft (8 acres all in, 6 acres usable grazing), those are just critters Ive spotted. So I think there is good stuff going on. But also horses went copper deficient on just the grass and the new ley has not grown as nicely as I'd hoped. So work needed.

I just feel completely overwhelmed by it.

 

[Melandmary]

I put an advert up in my local mole store offering free grazing. I now have 10 Jacobs with some more to follow grazing down my spare fields so that when I am ready to use them for my horses. It has worked out quite well and the hobby farmers do jobs like fencing and strimming for me in return ?

 

[Dasher66]

We borrow sheep too. The farmer brings them, checks daily and takes them away when the grass has gone. They hoover up horse worms and poop in small packets that we leave to fertilise the soil.
We do help with putting up the electric fence and return escapees.

 

[Fruitcake]

I considered borrowing sheep at one point. Farmer who'd been doing some work for us offered to bring some over. I had electric fencing separating two areas. When I asked if electric fencing would keep sheep out, his reply was, "Aye, dead uns." ??
We didn't take any sheep.

 

[palo1]

I have lots of insects and things to be fair. Little beetles in every poop I collect. And ridiculous amounts of small birds everywhere that must be eating something. Also have voles and at least one stoat AND a weasel on the croft (8 acres all in, 6 acres usable grazing), those are just critters Ive spotted. So I think there is good stuff going on. But also horses went copper deficient on just the grass and the new ley has not grown as nicely as I'd hoped. So work needed.

I just feel completely overwhelmed by it.

I think it's wise to try not to overthink the problems and work on a more 'macro' scale where you are supporting the land more than very specific elements of the grazing (other than dangerous pests/weeds). Our herd used to be copper deficient too but with the grazing we have now (lime in particular helps that enormously) whilst there are still imbalances, the horses are doing so much better and just need 'ordinary' minerals. It's amazing what a difference quite small changes can make. It's great news that you have critters of every type too though very acid soil may not support as much life as more neutral soil as acid lovers are a bit more specialist! On the whole acid soil is not so desirable from an environmental perspective unless you have an SSSI where you would want to maintain that of course though!

 

[spotty_pony]

I know the feeling - it does seem there is a lot more harmful things to horses than at first meets the eye. We moved house last December and I am constantly looking up plants and trees I find in the fields to make sure they are suitable for horses as we had some really deadly ones such as Yew!!

 

[PapaverFollis]

I think it's wise to try not to overthink the problems and work on a more 'macro' scale where you are supporting the land more than very specific elements of the grazing (other than dangerous pests/weeds). Our herd used to be copper deficient too but with the grazing we have now (lime in particular helps that enormously) whilst there are still imbalances, the horses are doing so much better and just need 'ordinary' minerals. It's amazing what a difference quite small changes can make. It's great news that you have critters of every type too though very acid soil may not support as much life as more neutral soil as acid lovers are a bit more specialist! On the whole acid soil is not so desirable from an environmental perspective unless you have an SSSI where you would want to maintain that of course though!

Yes. I need to go after the low hanging fruit, so to speak, with the large returns first. And I'm thinking that is soil testing and probably liming. And getting some muck on it for organic matter as much as anything.

But first first job is tackling any ergot, lifting the cut grass that hasn't rotted down as I'd hoped and hunting out the last of the alsike...

 

[Nasicus]

Does feel like ignorance is somewhat bliss when it comes to managing land. It's certainly a lot less work compared to when you're clued in and actually keeping an eye on things

 

[ycbm]

I've just walked my field for 45 minutes. It's had no work of any kind done on it for 29 years. No topping, harrowing, fertiliser, not even cross grazing. I struggled to find the type of seed head types that harbour it, though when I moved here the field was almost 100% ryegrass. I found 15 heads with ergot on, in one or twos, all poking up above the general height of the plants out there. I've never seen a horse eat a seed head at that height.

I've concluded that I don't have an issue to worry about.

I wonder if it is treating/managing grass to obtain maximum food value which is a problem here? If only all grass could be under-grazed and allowed to go wild like mine, maybe ergot would not be an issue? Of course, with pressure on land it gets harder and harder to do.

Breathing a sigh of relief myself tonight.
.

 

[Fruitcake]

I've just walked my field for 45 minutes. It's had no work of any kind done on it for 29 years. No topping, harrowing, fertiliser, not even cross grazing. I struggled to find the type of seed head types that harbour it, though when I moved here the field was almost 100% ryegrass. I found 15 heads with ergot on, in one or twos, all poking up above the general height of the plants out there. I've never seen a horse eat a seed head at that height.

I've concluded that I don't have an issue to worry about.

I wonder if it is treating/managing grass to obtain maximum food value which is a problem here? If only all grass could be under-grazed and allowed to go wild like mine, maybe ergot would not be an issue? Of course, with pressure on land it gets harder and harder to do.

Breathing a sigh of relief myself tonight.
.

My fields are rather wild and have never had anything done to them (other than some of them being cut for hay in the past). The most wild and undergrazed one is the one with most ergot for some reason. I’m not sure if this is just an issue this year or if it’s always been there as I was blissfully unaware of its existence until a few days ago. It does seem to only be on the tall seed heads though.

 

[Labaire]

I wonder if it is treating/managing grass to obtain maximum food value which is a problem here? If only all grass could be under-grazed and allowed to go wild like mine, maybe ergot would not be an issue? Of course, with pressure on land it gets harder and harder to do.

Breathing a sigh of relief myself tonight.
.

this summer paddock of mine is completely unimproved-well it was the site of a small farm in the 1800s. It is only grazed by two native ponies for 3 or 4 months per year so hardly overgrazed and has no maintenance at all because you can’t get machines on it. not crossgrazed. it’s full of all sorts of flowers, rushes, grasses and native shrubs and trees and very little rye. my ponies walk about snipping seed heads off the top of grasses-both moor bred, proper native ponies-seed heads are higher in nsc so expect they are tastier than the stalks but when given free choice they will take short grass interspersed with much stalkier stuff and other things such as gorse, hawthorn, thistles etc. I don’t think ergot is anyone’s fault, it’s just a bad year for it driven by local conditions. Maybe it’s usually too wet for it up here ? and the dry summer has been better for it.

 

[Charley657]

I learn so much from you all, you really are a knowledgeable bunch. Put me off ever getting a horse though

 

[palo1]

Yes. I need to go after the low hanging fruit, so to speak, with the large returns first. And I'm thinking that is soil testing and probably liming. And getting some muck on it for organic matter as much as anything.

But first first job is tackling any ergot, lifting the cut grass that hasn't rotted down as I'd hoped and hunting out the last of the alsike...

I think this sounds like a really good strategy. You should notice some pretty positive changes if you can soil test & lime (and/or other) as well as add organic matter. I don't know the best strategy for ergot or alsike clover (thankfully we haven't got either but I would actually choose to spray if that was possible and needed as that hopefully would be a 1 hit solution). You will deffo get there and you will be so delighted when your grazing is an asset rather than a worry!!

 

[PapaverFollis]

So apparently...even after cutting and removing the seed heads it is not a good idea to graze ergot affected grass AT ALL. Because there will be some seed drop.

I am ****ing done.

I don't even know if my main field is safe because I cut the grass while it was flowering but what if some of it had already gone to seed? And how can I check now that is has been on the ground for as long as it has.

What the ****?

I honestly can't f*cking cope. Can't get a straight answer out of anyone about anything horse (or human for that matter) health related. There's too much conflicting knowledge and information and noone knows any f***ing thing at all!!!!

I have no idea what to do.

 

[PurBee]

So apparently...even after cutting and removing the seed heads it is not a good idea to graze ergot affected grass AT ALL. Because there will be some seed drop.

I am ****ing done.

I don't even know if my main field is safe because I cut the grass while it was flowering but what if some of it had already gone to seed? And how can I check now that is has been on the ground for as long as it has.

What the ****?

I honestly can't f*cking cope. Can't get a straight answer out of anyone about anything horse (or human for that matter) health related. There's too much conflicting knowledge and information and noone knows any f***ing thing at all!!!!

I have no idea what to do.

The ergot germinated mouse-poop seed will drop to the base of the grass. they roll, theyre round, thankfully! That what we have on our side. We’d be damned if ergot had burr spikes on them like many other seeds! Thankfully also, ergot seeds aren’t sticky, theyre relatively smooth, so roll and drop through grass.

The chances of horses inadvertently eating standing stems of infested ergot, are much higher than them being able to pick up mouse droppings ergot seeds from the base of the grass blade at soil level.

So with any field ergot infected, after cutting, allow the mulch to rot, rain to help it rot, ergot rots down with the mulch, wait 2/3 weeks for the mulch to rot - grass growth pokes through the mulch - when there’s 4+inches fresh grass growth, you can graze the field.

Therefore, if you’ve removed the stems already, take a wander through the field and try to see any ergot seeds sitting on the top of the leafy grass. I’d be amazed if you found any.

You said you cut the grass while it was flowering - that’s brilliant news - ergot develops only on OLD seeded grass flower heads that have bleached pale gold/white - not on fresh green grass flower heads. So that field you cut before it flowered, is ergot-free.

I’ve dealt with ergot mostly every year where i am due to a very wet climate, and autumn time is when it normally strikes bad. I’ve always flail mowed the area, or strimmed it chopping everything small with the strimmer as i go - waited a couple, few weeks for mulch to rot, and new grass to grow and then grazed the land.
My horses have not been affected by ergot with these management practices.
Like you i knew nothing back then about ergot and completely freaked out when i looked over my fields and saw it absolutely everywhere on all old standing grass!
So i just cut the darn stuff and waited for fresh growth before grazing. That method has always worked. My horses also dont eat rotting grass clippings. They would eat fresh - thats why i wait 2/3 weeks after cutting to make sure the mulch is rotting well and new grass growth is abundant enough/ more appetising for them.

Truly dont worry PF - i kept my horses in their dry yard area for 3 weeks one year, feeding hay due to ergot panic waiting for mulch to rot and grass growth…i stressed too much about it, but now, all grazing areas, i cut at flowering time so ergot in autumn doesnt strike those fields.
You’re armed with this info now, so next year you’ll know how to prevent it, so you’ll never go through this panic again.

Let me stress - ergot infects dried OLD standing grass flower heads, not fresh. It’s a method nature uses to rot down all that is dead…moulds perform this function well. Only in drier climates will standing hay feed be possible, probably climates of below 800mm rain per year. This year the uk has suffered more rain than normal. Here where i am west ireland, its been a dry year and ergot is very minimal. Scotland climate will also be more prone due to damper climate.
The answer is to be absolutely sure grazing is safe in ergot-prone wet climates, top the flowering grass seed heads in the grazing fields….late july time.
If you dont over-graze your land and have 1 horse for every 2-3 acres, you’ll find grass will re-flower in august - so you may have to do a second topping, or wait until mid-august and just do 1 topping.

For those without machinery to top fields, i also use a Stihl FS280k strimmer -its an older stihl model i bought off ebay 2ndhand and it a beast of a thing and made very well. Not sure about new stihl models - my neighbour always has issues…but for 150 quid you can get an older powerful 34cc model off ebay and they are really useful for zipping over a field with and taking off grass flower heads. I have a small tractor set-up but still use the strimmer annually for areas not easily accessible by tractor and for strimming long grass growing around the fence lines.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Thank you PurBee. That is really helpful, thank you for taking the time to write it. ❤

I'm a mess!

 

[PurBee]

Thank you PurBee. That is really helpful, thank you for taking the time to write it. ❤

I'm a mess!

You’re welcome PF, big hug - the learning curve of land management can be very stressful for us horse owners as its a bit of a steep curve, more like a roller coaster ride! But as you get to know your land, you’ll find the most serious issues you will learn to prevent them altogether.

The clover issue - i wouldnt be too concerned if there’s a few dotted about - aslike clover is in many grass seed mixes - aimed at the cow farmer market really as cows do fine on aslike clover. I buy just grass seed mixes, checking closely what is contained in the mix as they often give the latin name of the grass - so i cross check with google each latin name.

Clovers love to seed on land that’s low nitrogen soil as clovers add nitrogen to the soil. So the answer to reduce loads of clover in a paddock for horses is to add nitrogen to the top soil. Your idea of leaving winter poop and flicking it about in spring will help with this, as well as spreading your main poop piles on your worse clover affected areas.

I get clovers growing in all rocky path areas, due to loads of minerals from the rock for root growth of plant but no nitrogen is present, so clover moves in to ‘fix’ the nitrogen problem of the rocky paths. Its nature’s way of trying to balance soil. The plants that grow there show what the top soil is lacking. So if you add that component the plant is known for adding, you’ll find the volume of those plants will naturally reduce.

 

[southerncomfort]

Eek...put me in the queue for some valium!

Just walked winter paddock and found some ergot fungus on my foggage. ?

The paddock is circa 2 acres. Would it be feasible for me to strim, collect & burn do we think?

All the farmers/contactors here are busy cutting for hay so I doubt I'll be able to find someone to top it for a while.

Not sure I'll grow foggage again tbh.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

This thread has had me walking our fields with my eyes glued to the grass. We have a lot of standing foggage on the fields my sheep have grazed but none on the pony paddocks. I found one seed head that looks like ergot. If there is one there must be more but hopefully not enough to worry about. The sycamores worry me more. My mare has just moved onto the big field so fingers crossed. One of the ponies will join her much later in the year otherwise it is just sheep.
Our field was seeded with a 3 year lei around 30 yrs ago. Since then it has had no improvement, no fertiliser apart from what the sheep and ponies provide and apart from spot spraying for thistles has had virtually no management. Photo of our field and one of the seed head which I think is ergot.

 

[SEL]

Eek...put me in the queue for some valium!

Just walked winter paddock and found some ergot fungus on my foggage. ?

The paddock is circa 2 acres. Would it be feasible for me to strim, collect & burn do we think?

All the farmers/contactors here are busy cutting for hay so I doubt I'll be able to find someone to top it for a while.

Not sure I'll grow foggage again tbh.

I have a friend strimming by hand and burning planned for this weekend!