Will it never end?

[PapaverFollis]

I'm not having grass going to seed here again, that's for sure!

But I do think something climatic this year has caused an issue. Its just weird because it has been so dry here! I'm not sure but I think there might be some on next door's oats. ? I hope I'm wrong.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Strimming and burning my walkway grass this weekend too. Ergot solidarity chaps.

 

[SEL]

Thank you PurBee. That is really helpful, thank you for taking the time to write it. ❤

!

I second that

 

[southerncomfort]

I have a friend strimming by hand and burning planned for this weekend!

Thanks, I think that's going to be my weekend too!

 

[southerncomfort]

I'm not having grass going to seed here again, that's for sure!

But I do think something climatic this year has caused an issue. Its just weird because it has been so dry here! I'm not sure but I think there might be some on next door's oats. ? I hope I'm wrong.

It's been dry here too but very little sun and temperatures rarely going above 20°.

 

[PapaverFollis]

It's been dry here too but very little sun and temperatures rarely going above 20°.

Sounds very much like how it has been here. Some sunny days but quite a lot of grey but dry days I'd say.

Who knows!

I'm feeling much calmer about dealing with it thanks to PurBee though. The Facebook people were talking about ploughing it in!!! That was panic-inducing to say the least.

 

[PurBee]

This thread has had me walking our fields with my eyes glued to the grass. We have a lot of standing foggage on the fields my sheep have grazed but none on the pony paddocks. I found one seed head that looks like ergot. If there is one there must be more but hopefully not enough to worry about. The sycamores worry me more. My mare has just moved onto the big field so fingers crossed. One of the ponies will join her much later in the year otherwise it is just sheep.
Our field was seeded with a 3 year lei around 30 yrs ago. Since then it has had no improvement, no fertiliser apart from what the sheep and ponies provide and apart from spot spraying for thistles has had virtually no management. Photo of our field and one of the seed head which I think is ergot.View attachment 78802View attachment 78803

Love the field pic - is that creeping red fescue? It gives a lovely sunset coloured bloom to a field when flowering ?

I cant tell from your seed head pic if that is ergot or a black seed. Ergot really is like a mini black banana, so very similar to mouse poop. I’ve never seen it look round and black like a large poppy seed.

If you walked your whole field inspecting various dried old seed heads and found just 1 suspect ergot, you dont have ergot now.

The one thing i noticed before discovering /reading about ergot - is the ‘pre-ergot phase & symptoms’ of the grass heads. One the grass has changed from fresh green to cream/white standing hay - next (depending on climatic conditions of early autumn/winter) they tend to get black mould beginning to form. Some also can get a pale pink mould form. Then after the mould appearance the black mouse-poop bananas start to poke out of individual seeds on the plant.

I walked the non-grazing long grass areas on the land and found some mould beginning on heads and some ergot here and there already forming. Other heads are still too green.
Normally by end of sept i can walk long grass areas and see ergot poking out of almost every seed head.

Here’s a very close-up pic, note the black mould showing on seeds not yet sprouted the ergot:

 

[ElleSkywalkingintheair]

Thanks PurBee, I've found some in my garden (1/2 an acre was saving for later in the year grass for ponies) and a bit on my shetlands track (strip grazed) shall strim the lot, possibly graze the garden late Oct or so, same with shetland paddock but will collect up the shetlands strimmings to be on the safe side ?

 

[Labaire]

The Facebook people were talking about ploughing it in!!! That was panic-inducing to say the least.

with that particular group 'you' are dealing with absolute text book best practice -they aren't applicable to everyone's situation or resources. It's a very useful resource though.

My field (which isnt mine) couldn't be topped with machines or ploughed-its part bog, part flood meadow and part kame (a huge shingle bank about 300m long, with little top soil and 50ft slope off it in places).

I will leave the worst of it ungrazed this year and aim to not let it go over next year (I dont know how yet, owner hates using it for sheep due to it not being contiguous with his other land and it being a pain to gather sheep in). The part I had already grazed this year in May looks clear-I dont usually graze it that early as it usually has too much spring grass (which was very late for us this year as so dry). I generally can't use the field past beginning of December as its too wet and I lose the will battling it and so they are moved to a different field which is cross grazed and was topped back in July.

My landlord farmer is a great guy but has no clue about different grasses, toxic plants etc-farmers don't need to know, they either spray it, top it or use sheep to get rid of it. Where they can teach horse owners a thing or two (generally, not aimed at you) is by not stressing the grazing, not overgrazing, by fertilising when necessary and by paddocking/rotating frequently.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Here’s a very close-up pic, note the black mould showing on seeds not yet sprouted the ergot:

Definitely not got anything like that thank goodness. Hopefully BIL will get his tractor back in action and we can top next year, will help with the many thistles as well. At least this thread has given me leverage to persuade my sister that topping is a good idea. If I owned the field I would have had someone in to do it but sister and her OH own it and don't always follow what I recommend.

 

[PurBee]

Definitely not got anything like that thank goodness. Hopefully BIL will get his tractor back in action and we can top next year, will help with the many thistles as well. At least this thread has given me leverage to persuade my sister that topping is a good idea. If I owned the field I would have had someone in to do it but sister and her OH own it and don't always follow what I recommend.

I’m yet to see ergot infect fescues that have a very feathery seed head - like creeping red fescue - the type of fescues which have teeny tiny seeds. Not to say its impossible, but i have all varied grasses and only have so far seen it regularly on the grasses that have a substantial seed husk size.

Ergotism affects cattle more intensely than horses - which is ironic as horses are usually more sensitive than cattle to poisonous alkaloids.
Cattle with ergotism suffer less milk production, calving issues, weak calves etc, gangrene of tips of ears, tail and sloughing of hooves, as well as the horse-type symptoms.

Horses get heat stress….can’t cool down due to constriction of blood vessels due to ergotism. Horses in acute cases of eating a load of it going into a new field can act irrationally, depressed, agitated, have convulsions, colic-type thrashing i imagine, and death normally follows.

Horses can get inflamed coronary bands and sloughing of hooves with long term trickle ingestion of ergot infected food - that probably gets mis-diagnosed at selenium poisoning, which causes the same symptoms, when it could in fact be due to chronic ergot ingestion.

It seems horses wont suffer such acute symptoms if they encounter a few heads with it on, as theyre not as sensitive to it as cattle, but if the entire field isnt topped and most heads have ergot, that’s a real risk for grazing any animal on, especially herds of cattle.

 

[TPO]

Somehow managed to post this reply in a totally random thread ??‍

Anyway...

This popped up on my fb feed

https://www.facebook.com/104537387948495/posts/374004087668489

 

[ycbm]

Somehow managed to post this reply in a totally random thread ??‍

Anyway...

This popped up on my fb feed

https://www.facebook.com/104537387948495/posts/374004087668489

Just to warn people, the ergot on my seed heads looks nothing like that, there's no nub on the end, and it's not brown, just a little jet black finger poking out. It's on one type of seed head only, the dense ones that I think are ryegrass. Thankfully I have very little ryegrass left though it was practically a monoculture before I started neglecting it 30 years back.
.

 

[ycbm]

This thread has had me walking our fields with my eyes glued to the grass. We have a lot of standing foggage on the fields my sheep have grazed but none on the pony paddocks. I found one seed head that looks like ergot. If there is one there must be more but hopefully not enough to worry about. The sycamores worry me more. My mare has just moved onto the big field so fingers crossed. One of the ponies will join her much later in the year otherwise it is just sheep.
Our field was seeded with a 3 year lei around 30 yrs ago. Since then it has had no improvement, no fertiliser apart from what the sheep and ponies provide and apart from spot spraying for thistles has had virtually no management. Photo of our field and one of the seed head which I think is ergot.View attachment 78802View attachment 78803

They could almost be my photos, both of them.

 

[PapaverFollis]

A close up of one of mine. It is mostly on this spikey grass. There's not a lot of it through the area but enough to be concerning. At least I'll be happy when they churn this walkway to the field to muddy carnage! I won't be giving them free access as I half planned to do. Will be leading back and forth instead.

 

[PurBee]

A close up of one of mine. It is mostly on this spikey grass. There's not a lot of it through the area but enough to be concerning. At least I'll be happy when they churn this walkway to the field to muddy carnage! I won't be giving them free access as I half planned to do. Will be leading back and forth instead.

View attachment 78828
View attachment 78829

Thats sweet vernal grass - i love that grass in hay, it gives hay such a delightful aroma - i managed to get some hay with it in this year and i love sniffing the stuff as i shake it out to feed!

It’s quite an old species of grass and very expensive to buy as seed - at around 70 quid a kilo, in comparison to 4 quid a kilo for ryegrass seed. It’s mostly seen in old mixed grass meadows. Favours wetter areas. I have a fair bit of it on my land.

In normal damp summer years, sweet vernal grass is the first to flower beginning june, and the first to get ergot by end of july if june/july have been particularly wet and warm.

Ironic this year here it‘s been a dry june/july and sweet vernal here isnt affected with ergot, but tall fescue and ryegrass is. Tall fescue always gets it but i hadnt seen it on ryegrass here until this year.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

Been strimming in my fields today and looking for ergot , thanks to this post. I don't have any but have one 4 acre field that is completely overrun with clover. There was hardly any there last year! The horses turned out int here don't like it as it has grown so big and just graze a few small patches of grass. I'm tempted to turn my fattie out in there because there's hardly any grass

Grazing is a nightmare. I'm becoming obsessed by it. I'm always looking at other peoples fields and think they look so much better than mine. I was even at the cricket the other day thinking why doesn't my grass look like this!!!

I'm sure years ago people didn't bet so stressed out about their grazing

 

[Labaire]

Been strimming in my fields today and looking for ergot , thanks to this post. I don't have any but have one 4 acre field that is completely overrun with clover. There was hardly any there last year! The horses turned out int here don't like it as it has grown so big and just graze a few small patches of grass. I'm tempted to turn my fattie out in there because there's hardly any grass

Grazing is a nightmare. I'm becoming obsessed by it. I'm always looking at other peoples fields and think they look so much better than mine. I was even at the cricket the other day thinking why doesn't my grass look like this!!!

I'm sure years ago people didn't bet so stressed out about their grazing

don’t put your fatty in with clover, if he’s greedy it’s the equivalent of sugar coated lard. I hate the damn stuff, even more than ragwort and more toxic plants.

 

[MrsMozartleto]

Gosh PF. You've saved my bacon posting this. Our grass expert was cancelled (thanks covid) and we're still learning what's here. Half is wild growing stuff on furrowed land where some trees were planted, so we have the winter and Spring to get to grips with it. The other half was grazed by Highland cattle and sheep. That's now the horses area.

Thanks to your post I went looking and photographing again. Found one patch of alsike clover on what will be a walkway, well away from the horses field, and I think something that might be ergot (off to look again) thankfully on another away from the horses walkway. The big horses field will be flaid on Monday and sprayed the week after. The horses will be kept off for at least a month, dependent on what the sprayer chap says, i.e. if need to be off for longer.

I will find me another grasses person and we will walk the entire place together and make a plan!

So thank you again PF for starting the thread, and thank you all for your extremely helpful information and advice. Very much appreciated.

 

[southerncomfort]

I'd already started applying calciprill to my land. Hoping if I do it again in spring I'll start seeing a difference.

We're on the edge of moorland so the soil here is very acidic. I'm sort of kicking myself that we didn't start doing this when we first moved here 4 years ago!

 

[PapaverFollis]

I know. I'm nearly two years in. I'm annoyed that we didn't test and sort the soil before planting the field at the back. Still, if the best time to start was two years ago the second best time to start is now!

"Time to get Macro" is going to be my new motto.

 

[southerncomfort]

Don't know about anyone else but my back and shoulders are aching today.

Feeling a bit daunted about the size of the task, but we've at least cleared the first area the ponies graze in winter and I'll just keep walking it to check I've got them all.

We've found that the grass around the edges of the field are much more badly affected.

 

[TPO]

So today is day 1 with the strimmer as we don't have a topper.

I will try to take up as much of the cut grass as possible to burn but it's not going to be 100%.

How long should the field be rested before they can graze it?

They are back on the bare summer paddocks with hay but that's not a long term option and will need to go onto winter grazing.

I haven't walked the whole winter field but have found some ergot. It's "only" a few seed heads every so often, not big clumps of it. I don't know if that makes a difference.

 

[PapaverFollis]

With regard to amounts in the Facebook Post above... 1g of ergot per seed head is a large over-estimate (I just weighed two infested seed heads -because it has been bugging me- without seperating the ergot and it didnt even tip the scales to 1g... at most I'd say 0.25g ergot per seed head, at the very most). Also, generally toxicity needs a "per volume of feed" stated after it, or even "per amount of time" perhaps or "per area grazed". Ideally they wouldn't have any but I can't understand how none of us had been more aware of it if it was that deadly? But then I don't think I've ever seen it before, would I have noticed though?

 

[PapaverFollis]

I found a vet website type source saying to keep consumption of ergot at <0.1% of total feed volume. So less than 15g a day for the bigger horses. So 60 infected seed heads? Easily done in a fully infested field but they're realistically not going to get that from a cleared field, even if some has fallen to the ground.

 

[TPO]

I've been googling trying to find answers for how long the cut grass needs rested before being grazed or if leaving the seed heads to fall themselves is an option.

From what I could find it only seems to have come into the awareness of "horse people" last year and then it only seems to be people who do tracks and had standing hay.

There also appears to be a fair few posts about raised liver enzymes and with hindsight attributing that to ergot.

But vets still seem unaware of it on the whole although I know vets aren't always at the cutting edge, so to speak, of grass/land management.

But yeah if horses were keeling over left, right and centre then I think it would be a bigger deal.

I don't think there will be many people buying into the track system with standing hay going forward! I think equicentral type horse keeping will see boom in popularity.

Basically I think it's wise to be aware but our horses have probably grazed it in previous year when we were all oblivious. Obviously knowledge is power and now we know we can try our best to manage things but perhaps it doesn't need to be thr reason for sleepless nights

 

[PapaverFollis]

Yes, no more standing hay! And I've gone off a track too after watching my horses get lost around it for a month... I think from now on I might split into 5 paddocks and rotate every month or something.

 

[Labaire]

Basically I think it's wise to be aware but our horses have probably grazed it in previous year when we were all oblivious. Obviously knowledge is power and now we know we can try our best to manage things but perhaps it doesn't need to be thr reason for sleepless nights

yep, I have had a local friend in complete hysterics about it and I don't have the energy. We have had it here before, it is worse this year and we'll do what we can. I stopped with the standing hay a couple of years ago because of rust anyway.
I like a track but not on grass-doenst work for natives who never stop eating no matter how short the grass gets, it just makes him fat and knackers the sward. I do think grass free tracks are brilliant-just need to win more than the £5 on the lottery than I did last night.

 

[TPO]

Yes, no more standing hay! And I've gone off a track too after watching my horses get lost around it for a month... I think from now on I might split into 5 paddocks and rotate every month or something.

Thats the new plan here too

Just collected the soil samples to post to ProGreen tomorrow so will see what the results say.

Until then horses back onto bare summer paddocks with hay.

Getting sheep into the big field for a couple of weeks to "clean" it. Then depending on the advice from Progressive will section the winter field into smaller sections to get rotated.

The joys ?

 

[TPO]

yep, I have had a local friend in complete hysterics about it and I don't have the energy. We have had it here before, it is worse this year and we'll do what we can. I stopped with the standing hay a couple of years ago because of rust anyway.
I like a track but not on grass-doenst work for natives who never stop eating no matter how short the grass gets, it just makes him fat and knackers the sward. I do think grass free tracks are brilliant-just need to win more than the £5 on the lottery than I did last night.

I was that hysterical person over the past couple of days ???

I have calmed down a lot today. Yes there is some but you have to look for it and it's a couple of heads not huge clumps of it. The sheep will be the, emm, sacrificial lambs to flatten the standing hay and by that time seed heads will have fallen off anyway.

They haven't died so far ??