WWYD? Feeling deflated

[RHM]

I think you are doing the right thing getting the specialist opinion. Mainly because if the time comes you will know yourself you explored every option. I really feel for you, it is awful not knowing the right time to let them go and I am sure it is not helped by the naivety of others on your yard. I am a big believer in better a day too soon. I would see what the specialist said and if he offered no long term solutions I would probably PTS. It’s the hardest decision you have to make as a horse owner but after all they do for us it is the final act of kindness you can offer them. Thinking of you.

 

[FFAQ]

If you do retire him would it be an option to ride your other horse and lead him? Purely to keep him moving and help keep the weight down. Poor chap and poor you. What a difficult position. Xx

 

[Leo Walker]

I would retire him. I would not continue to ride him with his level of problems - but I would retire him - he gave you 5 years of enjoyment, surely you can give him retirement while he is comfortbale? Unless he struggles in the field.

Hes not comfortable though is he? The neck problems show up more being ridden but they dont go away when the tack is off. Have you any idea how hard it is to manage an extremely god doer on the average livery yard? Hes already restricted and in work yet still over weight. I've been there and its a nightmare, and its not a particularly nice life for the horse either, stood in a small paddock or stable with limited access to grass. Its not a life I would want for any horse of mine.

 

[bubsqueaks]

Yes PTS is an option but a last resort so …. are there any track liveries in your area where you could turn him out 24/7 to manage his weight & see how he responds with pain etc.?
Is he barefoot as this can be so beneficial for arthritic horses as less concussion.
Is he on a good vit & min supplement.
Have you had him tested for Cushings etc
Have you considered testing for any deficiencies rather than guess with the Vit E
Yes I know all this costs but sometimes we need to try other things before the final decision of PTS
Just some thoughts.

 

[Tiddlypom]

We do daily carrot stretches, he struggles but does them after a few minutes and his neck always glunks.

For me, this is the key issue here. If he struggles so much to do his carrot stretches, he must be in pain all the time he is using his neck grazing. Unless he can be made comfortable enough to at least do his carrot stretches, then IMHO even keeping him on as a pasture ornament would be causing him continual discomfort.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Yes PTS is an option but a last resort so …. are there any track liveries in your area where you could turn him out 24/7 to manage his weight & see how he responds with pain etc.?
Is he barefoot as this can be so beneficial for arthritic horses as less concussion.
Is he on a good vit & min supplement.
Have you had him tested for Cushings etc
Have you considered testing for any deficiencies rather than guess with the Vit E
Yes I know all this costs but sometimes we need to try other things before the final decision of PTS
Just some thoughts.

I wouldn't just 'PTS' unless all other options were covered, I've had a think and would retire him (IF hes not in pain) as hes a good companion as happy on his own, but if he got ill from laminitis or couldn't manage it i'd PTS.
Its not a decision I'd take lightly.. I feel your post is suggesting I am giving up, I really am not. I am trying my best for him and have done a lot more than the usual owner would. I am sure most owners would kick on and crack on.

To your questions..
-He is turned out 24/7, in restricted grazing (almost a track system I created, as we have our own paddocks) and still over weight. Part of me wonders hes over weight because hes in pain even in the field hes moving so little. He is on barely any grazing, which is why its odd but hes grumpy as hes restricted.
-He is fully shod, as has terrible hind conformation so if ridden on roads barefoot wears his hind feet on the inside and the yard track to his field is stony, he suffers a lot just walking up the track barefoot. I've spoken to my farrier and if I decide to retire him, he'll be having his shoes off at the weekend to see how he gets on.
-He is on a balancer and he is on a expensive joint supplement, I look into all that greatly and buy the best.
-He has had a muscle enzyme test in December which showed slightly high results but nothing drastic, vet said we could test for cushings but thats £110 inc lab results and wouldn't make sense for him unable to bend, thats all down to his neck. Hes been tested for PSSM 1 last month and is negative, vet said could be PSSM 2 but thats hundreds of pounds as samples are sent abroad. Vet said Vitamin E is what they'd recommend so worth a try (so no I didn't just 'guess') and what hes been on 2 weeks already. He did seem happier in himself (or so seemed) for the first few days but it seems to of made no difference now.
My usual vet thinks the issue is his neck thats causing the problem and basically said to retire or PTS in his words. He said I could spend another £5k and he may never come right.

Theres only so much you can spend before you call it a day, even if hes being retired. I spent thousands of my own money when he was going through diagnostics, x-rays, medication, etc plus the physio, supplements. To some, thats nothing, but it was all the savings I had so don't have a lot left to spend on more diagnostics. If my vet said it was a great idea, i'd do it but in reality nothing will 'fix' his neck if thats the route of the problem.

I am still awaiting a call back from the senior vet, they said it could be anytime this week as hes so busy. I have lots of questions to ask.

I left him out for a couple of days now. I see them 3 times a day and he gets tiny amount of feed with supplements in. Today when I went to catch him he ran away, I've owned him 5 years now and this is the third time ever hes done this, all in the last 3 weeks so can ONLY assume pain because he thinks hes coming in to be ridden which is really sad.
I've noticed the last few weeks hes not wanting attention and keeps to himself in the field, seeming quite down, which also saddens me. I'd like to retire him as a companion, if hes pain free but don't want him in discomfort everyday for the rest of his life as thats also cruel..

 

[babymare]

Thank you both for your honest replies.

He is ‘footy’ and gets fat easily, he has fat pads at the moment (how it’s possible I have no idea, he’s on no grass and even my Welsh is thin!) so I’d have to be cautious with laminitis specially if he’s out of work. He hates the flies and the heat yet gets stiff when he’s in.

I would get so frowned upon by the entire yard for putting to sleep as to everyone else he seems so healthy and I’m sure they just think I’m stupid.

Hello. I was frowned on by some on my yard when I put my beautiful Babymare to sleep aged 12. In fact some where damn right cruel but it was not a decision I made lightly. Outwardly she was picture of Heath but going blind. I was moving out of area and with her blindness and high stress levels due to previous abuse both my vet and I believed PTS was best. Talk openly with your vet and be guided by them. Don't listen to others on yard. They are not walking in your shoes. It's a hard decision if you make it but when made for right reasons it is the best decision. Take care x

 

[wills_91]

I've noticed the last few weeks hes not wanting attention and keeps to himself in the field, seeming quite down, which also saddens me. I'd like to retire him as a companion, if hes pain free but don't want him in discomfort everyday for the rest of his life as thats also cruel..

I had my 11 year old pts last September, different issues but same kind of scenario however she had been retired for about 2 years at this point. I just want to say that your final paragraph really jumped out at me as your horse is displaying the same kind of attitude to life that mine did when I decided to call it time. She was "done" and no longer comfortable in the field either. It's a very very hard decision to make

If you do decide that pts is in his best interest then I think you can take comfort from the fact that you have done everything possible and as much as giving them a lengthy retirement is a nice thought it's not always in the horses best interest. Hopefully you will hear back from the specialist sooner rather than later and you can make a plan from there.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I am already struggling with his weight in a bare paddock ridden and he was being ridden 3 times a week. He acts starving but hes chubby.. my other horse is looking slim so split them up to give him more grass.

Is he really going to have a comfortable retirement in that case?

I disagree that he deserves a retirement. He certainly doesn't deserve a painful retirement. Whatever you decide, do it in the horse's best interests, rather than because fellow liveries, or any-one on here, thinks you should.

 

[{97702}]

Is he really going to have a comfortable retirement in that case?

I disagree that he deserves a retirement. He certainly doesn't deserve a painful retirement. Whatever you decide, do it in the horse's best interests, rather than because fellow liveries, or any-one on here, thinks you should.

Totally agree with this - I had a horse PTS years ago with navicular, he was lame in walk on 2 Bute a day, I was widely condemned by my fellow liveries including the YO but to be honest I wasn’t bothered what they thought, I knew that in my case my boy would never have made a field companion ☹️

 

[indie1282]

Today when I went to catch him he ran away, I've owned him 5 years now and this is the third time ever hes done this, all in the last 3 weeks so can ONLY assume pain because he thinks hes coming in to be ridden which is really sad.
I've noticed the last few weeks hes not wanting attention and keeps to himself in the field, seeming quite down, which also saddens me. I'd like to retire him as a companion, if hes pain free but don't want him in discomfort everyday for the rest of his life as thats also cruel..

This would be the decider for me to PTS. I dont see how retirement can be an option as from how you have been describing him he does sound like hes in pain now sadly.
Ignore other liveries. At the end if the day it's your horse and up to you to do right by him.

 

[redredruby]

Have you tried a different painkiller? My horse has been diagnosed with arthritis in the neck and kissing spins - we've put him on bute and gabapentin which is a painkiller that targets nerve pain and the difference is amazing.

If you can manage his pain successfully and his weight then you might be able to retire him. But I agree with others that at this stage riding is really not fair on him.

 

[Equi]

I haven't read any other replies.

Re running away when being caught, my little shit of a mare has always been this way, shes 100% fine she just decides she will be caught for a year then suddenly not be. She is not worked and has not been in about 2 years. Shes just a shit lol

My big horse is 500 (19) and i know from having him off then having him on again that gentle exercise helps him feel and look more free/forward. My dad has severe knee arthritis and always claims he is better after movement as long as its not too much. Thats for only the hocks really. The neck...i don't really know tbh. I think he should be sort of in the inbetween - retired from riding but still worked if that makes sense. No rider and no pressure, just asked to walk on around the arena so he is never forced into any sort of bending etc but is still being asked to move. At 10, its always going to be a sad thing, its too "young" for any of this, but its happening. I think you need to start telling yourself and preparing yourself for getting him put to sleep in the future. It will need to happen eventually. Its absolutely nothing you could prevent, its just how it has went and you as a loving owner are being the one to ease that pain.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Re running away when being caught, my little shit of a mare has always been this way, shes 100% fine she just decides she will be caught for a year then suddenly not be. She is not worked and has not been in about 2 years. Shes just a shit lol

My other gelding is a funny bugger to be caught but owned Alfie 5 years and he’s never been bad to catch even in grass up to his knees. It’s suddenly started happening since he’s got worse to ride. I don’t think it’s naughtiness as there’s no reason he’d suddenly start it? :-(

Thank you everyone - really appreciate replies. The vet is calling me today and we’ll go from there.

I am having trouble with him now chasing off my other gelding when I move the fence a tiny bit every so often. He didn’t use to so seems to be a new thing.. my other gelding is on the slimmer side so needs the grass so will separate them today

 

[tiahatti]

I feel like I am giving up on him.. if i can I'll retire him first and see how he gets on. Hes a good companion as happy on his own, so will see what the specialist says and then decide what to do from then

You are not giving up on him. You are looking for the best solution for him. He sounds so lovely. Perhaps he will enjoy a nice retirement. See what the vet says.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Just to follow up from this post, which was about a month ago now.

The specialist vet has been on holiday, so still haven't managed to speak to him yet even though they promised he would call me back last week and then it was this week - no call yet which is rather annoying. I'm going to chase up today.

I've spoken to my regular vet who knows him quite well and was the one to diagnose. He agrees the neck is giving him grief and it seems the steriods have warn off much quicker than expected. This vet is very straight to the point and honest, yet he did say he believes he won't be in pain grazing, its more when hes working or asked to bend, canter in a circle or any contact. It could also be related to his 'misshapen' fetlocks and that his hock joints as they have arthritis. We could re-steriod but it will probably barely last 3, at most 4 months. He said he'd personally retire him if it was possible, if he starts to struggle then make that big decision.

Hes not been ridden since this post was started in May. Hes been living out barefoot, hes slightly tubby but not chronically fat. He even canters across the field to see me..
He comes in for a few hours when I ride my other one (turned out together) because he feels left out, but may start to reduce that as he really doesn't need to be in. He does get grumpy/sour because my other one is getting more attention - thats an issue I may have as he sometimes takes it out on my other one.
I think he almost feels rejected and unwanted because hes not in work, which is upsetting but not sure what I can do with that. He gets groomed and loved still. I hope he adjusts. The main issue will be during winter, I prefer him out 24/7 but my other one comes in at night and he'll be on his own unless I can find a friend. Don't really warrant a retired horse being in at night when the grazing and shelter is good out, and don't want to buy another.
I'll reevaluate next year, my yard isn't cheap and if I can find somewhere cheaper where retired horses go that may be a option but I don't personally want to be retiring him for the next 15 years as it will cost so much money to just have him in the field so one day I know i'll have to make that big decision. Part of me still thinks letting him go while hes happy, fresh and feeling good would be best rather than delaying it, I really don't know.. do horses understand retirement?
I just can't let him go quite yet, will wait on the specialist vets opinion.

Thank you everyone for your comments. xo

 

[ester]

I was going to suggest if you could put him on retirement livery 24/7 for as long as feasible that might be the best option and give you a bit of space round making the decision.

It does seem that a lot of them settle more to it when none of them are working and the routine is for everyone to stay out.

 

[milliepops]

So hard. I'm lucky to have a place to keep my retirees at minimal extra expense, though at the moment I have one occupying a very expensive space at livery!
I also wouldn't choose to have a retired horse stabled for longer periods in the winter, especially one with a condition where gentle movement is more likely to be beneficial. Is there a chance of sharing the field with someone who would want 24/7 turnout so he could have company?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I was going to suggest if you could put him on retirement livery 24/7 for as long as feasible that might be the best option and give you a bit of space round making the decision.

The issue I have found since looking (at first I thought, retirement livery sounds great) is most retirement liveries are on lots of grass, lots of land, in big herds. Lots of descriptions such as 'luscious grass' He likes big herds but he gets fat on air, hes already on the borderline so being very careful as worry about laminitis. I couldn't manage it if he was away from home? He'd be in his element but he isn't a thoroughbred.

I also wouldn't choose to have a retired horse stabled for longer periods in the winter, especially one with a condition where gentle movement is more likely to be beneficial. Is there a chance of sharing the field with someone who would want 24/7 turnout so he could have company?

Thats the issue, don't really want him stabled and if hes kept out he'll be on his own - don't think that would go down well. My yard is fairly small, all the horses have their own fields and we also all poo pick, all but 1 are in at night in winter. That 1 is on his own kept out with a shelter, and he doesn't like company very possessive. I may ask around friends, a few own land. Fingers crossed.

 

[TPO]

Part of me still thinks letting him go while hes happy, fresh and feeling good would be best rather than delaying it
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/wwyd-feeling-deflated.776099/page-2#vGF4Ct2x1AWL8sjX.99

A biased opinion because it is what I done but I've always, where possible, chosen for them to go sooner while in relatively good health (clearly not 100% good health or they wouldn't be PTS...) before the decision could be taken out of my hands or they suffer.

My last TB was pts in relatively good health but I was very aware that was as good as he was going to be, aged 16 and with several rumbling on issues, and that the only route was downhill from that point. I wouldn't have decided to have him PTS at that time had my mum's horse not had an issue that warranted a pretty immediate decision. The result was a decision to let them go at the same time and as they looked so well (some eejits even commented on how sound he was, he was nowhere close!) it was off course subject of yard gossip and what have you. I knew it was the right decision for them and that was all the reassurance that I needed.

I could afford to keep a field ornament alongside another horse and of course I was very upset at losing him but there was a huge weight lifted after he went that I hadn't had when losing any other horse. I think we underestimate the emotional/mental toll that owning/keeping/looking after a "compromised" horse puts on us. Knowing where they are and that there isn't a chance of them suffering or being uncomfortable is a comfort in itself, or for me at least.

The old saying was to "give them a summer" but that isn't always the kindness that is implied. Hard ground, flies, issues with grass/weight etc mean that summer isn't always the best option for a retired horse...

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't feel bad for any decision that you make. You clearly care about your horse and have gone above and beyond trying to get to the bottom of the issues. In no way is it "giving up" or failing him so please don't think that way.

I hope that you hear from the specialist soon and that it is better news for you both. Take care

 

[indie1282]

Can you leave your other one out at night as well? I guess a track system retirement livery may suit him but they are probably ££££. Its so difficult and I do sympathise with you.

 

[ester]

Yup I know he isn't a TB and that was always my own concern FH and I think it depends on the set up how well they can cater for that. I know that _GG_ found with the inclined to be fat ones they moved so much more as a result of the large herd of rather playful beasts that it wasn't an issue longer term. I'm pretty sure Auslander has fatties with her retirees on livery too and definitely more track liveries about now.

I certainly did think re. F if I needed to I would do it and if he couldn't cope and ended up with lami then that was the decision made as I'd rather he was out with friends than not.
As it is he ended up with too many other health niggles that needed input it didn't happen.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Can you leave your other one out at night as well? I guess a track system retirement livery may suit him but they are probably ££££. Its so difficult and I do sympathise with you.

My other one isn't a great doer and in winter I ride first thing early before work, so having him in is so handy.
They are already on a similar plan to a track system made by myself with electric fencing as we have our own fields, its the shape of a L with water right at the other end. Hes on minimal grass but still fat! Issue is he has no friends currently around so if I leave him on his own (even though hes usually laid back) he has a fit.

I certainly did think re. F if I needed to I would do it and if he couldn't cope and ended up with lami then that was the decision made as I'd rather he was out with friends than not.
As it is he ended up with too many other health niggles that needed input it didn't happen.

Thats it, I want him to be happy or theres no point living. I'll ask about!

 

[Leo Walker]

When I went through this with Leo I was heart broken. I really thought I'd have to have him PTS and I was pretty much hysterical about it. I was lucky in that he went to my friend at the last minute. Hes been there nearly a year now and if she couldnt keep him he would be PTS. I would be sad but ok with it. Sometimes a bit of space and distance breaks the bond a bit and lets you make a hard but rational decision. I would send yours off on retirement livery for 6 months and then reassess. I think you will find that it all feels very different after that sort of gap.

 

[indie1282]

My other one isn't a great doer and in winter I ride first thing early before work, so having him in is so handy.
They are already on a similar plan to a track system made by myself with electric fencing as we have our own fields, its the shape of a L with water right at the other end. Hes on minimal grass but still fat! Issue is he has no friends currently around so if I leave him on his own (even though hes usually laid back) he has a fit.



Thats it, I want him to be happy or theres no point living. I'll ask about!

Do you rent/own your own fields? Is there potentially room for a little companion pony? A good doer like him. Then he could stay out 24/7. If you got one from a rescue home then you could send it back if it didn't work out.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Do you rent/own your own fields? Is there potentially room for a little companion pony? A good doer like him. Then he could stay out 24/7. If you got one from a rescue home then you could send it back if it didn't work out.

Unfortunately not, its a livery yard which is quite expensive. We have our own fields which is nice but difficult when he needs to be out 24/7 and my other one comes in to be ridden etc as hes on his own. I really couldn't afford another pony to be kept on livery.

Relatives have their own land, I could ask to move their at a cheaper rate than the livery cost currently but its with 2 rather aggressive mares which kick badly (was advised against it) or being kept on his own so decided against that.

 

[mariew]

I would PTS, he doesn't sound like a happy horse, and it might be a bit hard, but i am not of the opinion to retire at all costs. I would probably retire a horse that is comfortable, has been a friend for a long time and is low maintenance and cheap to keep in retirement.

I had my (neck arthritis) mare on full livery for a few months after we worked out what it was, and after diagnosed i stopped riding her as it wasn't safe for me nor her. I really started to resent how much she was costing me which was no good for man nor beast and moved her somewhere close to me and much cheaper, but sadly (or maybe a bitter sweet best result, she was only quite young) she passed away a few months later from something unrelated.

Ignore other people's opinions, it's not their horse, you need to do what is best and it seems to me you are making sensible decisions along the way, PTS is not necessarily the worst outcome, especially as they don't really know any different. There are many worse ones.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

To update in case anyone is following

He hasn't been ridden for 2 months now. I decided to try and keep him retired out 24/7 occasionally coming in for a few hours for as long as possible, he also keeps my other gelding happy and they're good friends. My vet said he shouldn't be in any pain as a field pet and the specialist said the same, its usually ridden activities that causes the pain and retirement for now should be pain free. If he changes in any way, it would be worth re considering retirement. Anyway, all was ok and he was a field pet seemingly quite happy (cantering up to me, happy chap)

Within the last week hes developed this awful looking gait/click movement in his shoulder, on both sides, he isn't lame but its so obvious and looks painful to watch. I emailed the video to my vet and the specialist. He has also been quite quiet recently, he doesn't always run over and sometimes just stands in one place which has made me more concerned. His neck is also as stiff as a board, rock hard all the time, it wasn't previously. Its strange specially considering he hasn't been in work in a while and even then it was light hacking.

My vet has got back to me after watching the video and said he believes its all neck related. That now the muscles aren't being used and he has lost muscle its created this unusual gait due to inflammation. It could be shoulder arthritis as well but he thinks neck related. He believes hes in pain, even at grass, with the fact of how tense his neck is and apologized he couldn't do anything else for him. Finishing on, 'I am so sorry' which made me whelm up.

I'm awaiting to hear back from the specialist who is calling me tomorrow.. but I am feeling absolutely heart broken knowing I will have to make that decision very soon but don't want him suffering in any way.

He will always be my pony of a life time x

 

[TPO]

I'm also so sorry

I hope you can take some comfort knowing that you left no stone unturned and have tried every option so that he can have a comfortable life. This is the final kindness that you can do for him.

Thinking of you at this heartbreaking time

 

[alibali]

I too am very sorry to hear this.

It will be little consolation that the path before you is now clear but it is the one last act of kindness we can give them.

Thinking of you at this difficult time.