Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?

southerncomfort said:
We don't deserve horses. She'd completely lost the plot and that poor sweet horse just stood there taking it. Makes me sick.

I've sent my email to the BHS. I won't be renewing my membership.

How can anyone have any confidence in a BHS qualified instructor now?
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My old lad is insured with the BHS. Is the insurance separate but under the same ' umbrella ' as BHS do you know?
 
If you question it you get the old Bob Wood Horses for Life (if you don't know him you could look him up on FB, or not, and not add to his clicks) platitudes about safety being paramount and horses being bigger and stronger than us followed by a rant about Milestone Equestrian and the like and how it's the end of equestrianism because of all these woke idiots who put people in danger with their reluctance to use violence against horses.
 
Flowerofthefen said:
My old lad is insured with the BHS. Is the insurance separate but under the same ' umbrella ' as BHS do you know?
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I suppose it will depend on if you are member or not - i would have thought.

I too sent an email, but have just paid my membership, so glad i am not a lifetime member as I would not be happy.
 
sbloom said:
If you question it you get the old Bob Wood Horses for Life (if you don't know him you could look him up on FB, or not, and not add to his clicks) platitudes about safety being paramount and horses being bigger and stronger than us followed by a rant about Milestone Equestrian and the like and how it's the end of equestrianism because of all these woke idiots who put people in danger with their reluctance to use violence against horses.
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Yes, because having the sh1t beaten out of it never made any horse think humans were a threat they would have to defend themselves against... How has he had a life in horses and not understood how they prefer to interact with the world?
 
I'm just thinking this over and I agree with the poster earlier who said it looks like she is losing her temper with the horse. I DO know that feeling, but on the rare occasion that it happens, I tend to just give up on whatever it was I was trying to achieve, end on a good note, and come back later when I've had time to think it through (and had a little scream of frustration by myself). I reckon most of us probably take a similar approach. However when producing the horse to do X Y Z is your job and livelihood, rather than just a hobby, it must be that much harder to just walk away. That isn't an excuse but I suppose I am actually starting to question the ethics of a system where the end goal is to get a horse to do X Y Z (whatever that might be).

I'm not sure a system in which money, reputation, and the ability to pay the bills, all rest on getting a horse to perform competitively, is one that sets trainers up to win. And the end result of that is that the horses bear the brunt of trainers' fear / frustration / worry etc. I really doubt that all these people go into horse sport because they love abusing horses - I think it's more likely that they're spectacularly failing (over time) to stand up to the pressure of the system they're working within. That doesn't excuse any one person's behaviour in the slightest, but I do think it raises a big question about whether the way horse sport operates is in fact ethical. And that's a much bigger and less clear-cut question that whether a woman beating up a horse is acceptable (because clearly it's not).

I hope that makes some kind of sense.
 
I remember the outcry by the RSPCA reference the teacher, whom lost her ****, whom ended up loosing an un horse job, and being taken to court

Most interested to see where this one ends up considering the footage is in the public domain, and this person makes a living out of "training" horses..... all endorsed currently by the BHS,
 
Widgeon said:
I'm just thinking this over and I agree with the poster earlier who said it looks like she is losing her temper with the horse. I DO know that feeling, but on the rare occasion that it happens, I tend to just give up on whatever it was I was trying to achieve, end on a good note, and come back later when I've had time to think it through (and had a little scream of frustration by myself). I reckon most of us probably take a similar approach. However when producing the horse to do X Y Z is your job and livelihood, rather than just a hobby, it must be that much harder to just walk away. That isn't an excuse but I suppose I am actually starting to question the ethics of a system where the end goal is to get a horse to do X Y Z (whatever that might be).

I'm not sure a system in which money, reputation, and the ability to pay the bills, all rest on getting a horse to perform competitively, is one that sets trainers up to win. And the end result of that is that the horses bear the brunt of trainers' fear / frustration / worry etc. I really doubt that all these people go into horse sport because they love abusing horses - I think it's more likely that they're spectacularly failing (over time) to stand up to the pressure of the system they're working within. That doesn't excuse any one person's behaviour in the slightest, but I do think it raises a big question about whether the way horse sport operates is in fact ethical. And that's a much bigger and less clear-cut question that whether a woman beating up a horse is acceptable (because clearly it's not).

I hope that makes some kind of sense.
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100%. I am very skeptical as to whether competitive equestrianism can truly be horse centred at a fundamental level, when trainers are, indeed, under this sort of pressure. I mean we should never be sending a horse away for a month to be backed, not even 6 weeks. We should have way better protocols that put horses at the centre of things, but it's a huge industry to change so I think we can only ever tinker at the edges, and just try and lead by example. There are of course some great advocates out there making a bigger noise, but it's not getting through.
 
Widgeon said:
I'm just thinking this over and I agree with the poster earlier who said it looks like she is losing her temper with the horse. I DO know that feeling, but on the rare occasion that it happens, I tend to just give up on whatever it was I was trying to achieve, end on a good note, and come back later when I've had time to think it through (and had a little scream of frustration by myself). I reckon most of us probably take a similar approach. However when producing the horse to do X Y Z is your job and livelihood, rather than just a hobby, it must be that much harder to just walk away. That isn't an excuse but I suppose I am actually starting to question the ethics of a system where the end goal is to get a horse to do X Y Z (whatever that might be).

I'm not sure a system in which money, reputation, and the ability to pay the bills, all rest on getting a horse to perform competitively, is one that sets trainers up to win. And the end result of that is that the horses bear the brunt of trainers' fear / frustration / worry etc. I really doubt that all these people go into horse sport because they love abusing horses - I think it's more likely that they're spectacularly failing (over time) to stand up to the pressure of the system they're working within. That doesn't excuse any one person's behaviour in the slightest, but I do think it raises a big question about whether the way horse sport operates is in fact ethical. And that's a much bigger and less clear-cut question that whether a woman beating up a horse is acceptable (because clearly it's not).

I hope that makes some kind of sense.
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So horses bearing the brunt of a what is essentially a hobby having created a whole professional (of varying skills and attitudes) class with their living dependent on a hobby.
 
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anguscat said:
So horses bearing the brunt of a what is essentially a hobby having created a whole professional (of caring skills and attitudes) class with their living dependent on a hobby.
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I'm not sure I'd quite agree with that as a summary of the origins of horse sport - they originally came from the military, which was very much not a hobby. But regardless, surely the same could be said of most sports? And we can see that building a pressure cooker atmosphere in any sport results in similar ends, i.e. the abuse of athletes - whether that's child abuse in diving, or adults being essentially forced to misuse drugs in Russia. In both those cases the victim has no voice, much like horses don't. I'm not disagreeing with your fundamental point, I just think there's a wider problem in top level competitive sport, and it probably needs tackling at a higher level. We can keep tackling individual cases of horse abuse but sadly I think if the system remains unchanged, it will just keep happening.
 
Had an interesting conversation at the weekend. I did my first ever mounted combat (sword) clinic. It's a very small part of HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts). The discussion came up as to whether or not competitions could become a thing, like they have for the ground based HEMA. The general opinion was that it would likely result in problems for horse welfare, as people pushed them harder and harder to get the win so we should just work on improving our understanding of the art and, where necessary, adapt training round the needs of the horses.
 
Widgeon said:
I'm not sure I'd quite agree with that as a summary of the origins of horse sport - they originally came from the military, which was very much not a hobby. But regardless, surely the same could be said of most sports? And we can see that building a pressure cooker atmosphere in any sport results in similar ends, i.e. the abuse of athletes - whether that's child abuse in diving, or adults being essentially forced to misuse drugs in Russia. In both those cases the victim has no voice, much like horses don't. I'm not disagreeing with your fundamental point, I just think there's a wider problem in top level competitive sport, and it probably needs tackling at a higher level. We can keep tackling individual cases of horse abuse but sadly I think if the system remains unchanged, it will just keep happening.
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Origins are irrelevant now. Horse sports are luxury hobbies now. That necessitates money beyond normal living expenses and allows other people to make varying livings on the back of it all.
 
@Widgeon yes there is some abuse within human sport, but we’re not (yet, anyway) selectively breeding humans in the hope of achieving sporting excellence, or in the case of dogs ‘looks’ to conform to some hideous breed standards.
There is huge ‘wastage’ in the breeding of horses for racing, dressage etc: for every 1 or so that might have a proper crack at the given sport you’ve probably bred 7 muddling-y sorts and got 2 disasters in your hands. The middling-ys get sold to average hopeful homes beguiled by the breeding, but in many cases the type of horse is unsuitable for these owners. A big part of breeding is a numbers game.
 
If I was that client she would be picking her teeth out her backside. Treating any horse like that is despicable. There are several ways and means of getting the horse to do what you want. None of which require a yank on the mouth , kick in the ribs, belted with whips… which is what seems to be fair game to some PROFESSIONALS..

I think its very different for someone like myself to comprehend who is on DIY who has a very strong bond with Orbi, he has not been handled by anyone else, or ridden by anyone else at all. Everything done by myself compared to part or full livery when they are handled by others and possibly owners dont spend all their spare time with them. Which is not a criticism at all everyone is different and we all have different lives.
 
anguscat said:
@Widgeon yes there is some abuse within human sport, but we’re not (yet, anyway) selectively breeding humans in the hope of achieving sporting excellence, or in the case of dogs ‘looks’ to conform to some hideous breed standards.
There is huge ‘wastage’ in the breeding of horses for racing, dressage etc: for every 1 or so that might have a proper crack at the given sport you’ve probably bred 7 muddling-y sorts and got 2 disasters in your hands. The middling-ys get sold to average hopeful homes beguiled by the breeding, but in many cases the type of horse is unsuitable for these owners. A big part of breeding is a numbers game.
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Yep I completely agree with all that. I'm not sure how directly relevant it is to the incident being discussed (the woman beating a horse) but I completely agree it's a huge and related problem.

What exactly do you reckon has changed since, oh I don't know, the 50s or 60s when horse sport was a big thing, but there didn't seem to be the huge level of wastage seen now? Were more competition riders riding TBs? Was "warmblood sports horse breeding" just much less of a thing? And if so, why? And were the discards more suitable for a leisure market? As others have said, riding is a luxury requiring lots of cash - but surely that has always been the case. I don't compete and I'm not exactly knowledgeable about the history of top level horse sport, but something has clearly changed. I think this is a tangential but related conversation to the original post on this recent section of the thread.
 
Widgeon said:
Yep I completely agree with all that. I'm not sure how directly relevant it is to the incident being discussed (the woman beating a horse) but I completely agree it's a huge and related problem.

What exactly do you reckon has changed since, oh I don't know, the 50s or 60s when horse sport was a big thing, but there didn't seem to be the huge level of wastage seen now? Were more competition riders riding TBs? Was "warmblood sports horse breeding" just much less of a thing? And if so, why? And were the discards more suitable for a leisure market? As others have said, riding is a luxury requiring lots of cash - but surely that has always been the case. I don't compete and I'm not exactly knowledgeable about the history of top level horse sport, but something has clearly changed. I think this is a tangential but related conversation to the original post on this recent section of the thread.
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Outside of the racing industry I don’t think we were specifically breeding for horse sports and there was less horse sport going on (so less market). Horses with talent sufficient for the sport at the time were talent spotted from a more ordinary pool of horses. As for the racing industry I suspect it was much smaller and less international.
 
&Widgeon, ‘Yes’ tangential. Was the notion that the development of horse sports into an industry (industrialisation) can put some people under huge pressure to get results within silly timescales.
 
I've emailed them as well. Have they replied to anyone yet or is it still a case of 'la la la we can't hear you'? I am 'only' a riding club member but if they do absolutely nothing & hope that we forget about it, I'm going to have to have a good think about whether to renew.
 
My response was

Thank you for contacting the BHS.

We will get back to you in the next few days but please allow 20 working days for us to resolve your concern.

Please see below a confirmation of your concern. If you need to make additions or amendments to this, or have any further queries, please do not hesitate to get back in touch by emailing customer.relations@bhs.org.uk
 
Gingerwitch said:
My response was

Thank you for contacting the BHS.

We will get back to you in the next few days but please allow 20 working days for us to resolve your concern.

Please see below a confirmation of your concern. If you need to make additions or amendments to this, or have any further queries, please do not hesitate to get back in touch by emailing customer.relations@bhs.org.uk
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Yep, that's what I got too.

I'm now wondering if I will ever get a reply or whether it will vanish without trace like a welfare issue I reported to them.

Btw, the welfare thing did get sorted, but whether or not it had anything to do with BHS I've no clue. Even with that they only responded when I chased them, the communication was very one sided.
 
The more and more I see videos of supposed "professionals" doing crap like this, the more I despair about the horse world - you don't need violence to train horses - they're sensitive souls who need to be listened to and not taken advantage of. Horses truly are some of the most tolerant animals I've ever come across - it amazes me that it takes so long for them to eventually react to the cruelty that they have been dealing with for so long......
 
The BHS need to up the ante in regard to their reaction to welfare abuses.

When Mark Todd was exposed smacking a horse with a branch at an eventing clinic the horse racing authorities suspended his training licence for I think 3 months, despite the offence not happening in a situation that was anything to do with horse racing. They used the offence of 'bringing racing into disrepute' to suspend him iirc.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that we need a united standard from all horse sport organisations to enable abuse to be properly clamped down on. So if an offence happens by a member of one horse sport organisation the offender should be suspended from all the horse sport organisations they are a member of (or that they join in an attempt to keep competing).
 
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