Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?

nutjob said:
Alliance for horse welfare in sport have posted it and reported it. It doesn't state who recorded it. If it's someone local or who works in the industry they may have reasons why they want to remain anonymous.
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Thanks for your reply, I had a look on the original source, sadly that is Anna Hilton's yard & it does look to be her. She does clinics etc for various local riding clubs & teaches locally so not good news at all, poor horse .
 
nutjob said:
Anna Hilton

Yes something has been done, BHS have awarded her a BHSI qualification. Well done for rewarding horse abusers BHS.

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There's someone else in that photo that I wouldn't let within a mile of my pony. I know of a horse that was sent to the person because it had started stopping when jumping. Lets just say that apparently a very firm approach was taken and the horse eventually jumped. Back home it continued to stop and when the vet was eventually called out it was found to have a physical cause.
 
Chianti said:
There's someone else in that photo that I wouldn't let within a mile of my pony. I know of a horse that was sent to the person because it had started stopping when jumping. Lets just say that apparently a very firm approach was taken and the horse eventually jumped. Back home it continued to stop and when the vet was eventually called out it was found to have a physical cause.
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This kind of thing will continue to happen as long as owners won't make the vet the first port of call, as long as vets say 'it's behavioural' and send them back to a trainer, and as long as trainers are happy to take money for training horses that should be under a vet. And this when we know - because there are studies - that a huge proportion of 'apparently sound' horses are nothing of the sort.
 
Chianti said:
There's someone else in that photo that I wouldn't let within a mile of my pony. I know of a horse that was sent to the person because it had started stopping when jumping. Lets just say that apparently a very firm approach was taken and the horse eventually jumped. Back home it continued to stop and when the vet was eventually called out it was found to have a physical cause.
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Same, there's another rider in that picture that I would never send a horse to. Have first hand experience of their "training". (Wonder if it is the same one?)
 
The BHS response has infuriated me.

Their last magazine issue talked about social license and the need to do better for horse welfare.

Yet another organisation paying lip service but doing absolutely zero itself to improve welfare.

Perhaps all of us members need to write to them and demand that they take action..? I don't feel inclined to let them away with this.
 
None of these organisations have any intention of doing anything, they’ve made that perfectly clear by their wishy washy statements yet clear lack of action.
The sad reality is that stamping down on this type of “horsemanship” would mean that a significant number of important/influential (delete as appropriate) people would have to be called out, and frankly, no-one has the b*lls to do it.
 
I think we have to be our horse’s voices and advocates when being told to do things in lessons that make us feel uncomfortable. I haven’t had to refuse to smack my horse, is this because the instructor can see that isn’t an option? I don’t know, but I have stopped plenty of lessons early because I feel my horse has done enough mentally/physically or has just done a great job. Too many riders are scared/intimidated to stand up yo instructors.
 
Burnttoast said:
This kind of thing will continue to happen as long as owners won't make the vet the first port of call, as long as vets say 'it's behavioural' and send them back to a trainer, and as long as trainers are happy to take money for training horses that should be under a vet. And this when we know - because there are studies - that a huge proportion of 'apparently sound' horses are nothing of the sort.
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What seems to be missing - for owners, trainers and vets alike - is clear guidance on how much of a protest from the horse is 'too much'. Because, clearly, many are still not getting it.

There is a rapidly growing proportion of people in the horsey world who will indeed listen to the horse's input, but equally there is still a proportion of people who will not, who feel that the horse is there for human purposes, and that it's fine to use pressure, restriction, and coercion to get the horse to do what they want. If a task is completed that's a success and if you've gone through a difficult spell with the horse it doesn't matter as long as you get the horse to do what you want in the end.

It shouldn't be necessary, but guidelines which set out how long you are able to try to work through 'challenges' (both in the course of one session, but also over time), and at what point a level of behaviour or what combinations of behaviour should automatically cause a halt to 'training' and force veterinary investigations (or a longer-term break from training) to take place would be one way of speeding up the growth of the proportion of horses who are listened to.

Some might say that it's normal for horses to rear, buck, spin, bronc, refuse to jump, struggle with certain school movements, etc, but it is only normal for a horse to do that repeatedly when they are overwhelmed or in pain. If you work within a horse's comfort zone and they are not in pain, they simply don't express the more extreme behaviours, and they are incredibly willing. It is then also much easier to interpret the less extreme indicators of something being wrong.

So many horses who have had issues find themselves with persistant or pressurising trainers, then there's a before and after video of 'Wow, look how I turned this horse around', but more often than not the horse is having to compromise themselves to do what is required because there is and always was an underlying issue. They learn that there is no other option than to 'Just do it' and they shut down and do just that. Limiting how persistant a trainer could be in the face of various levels of behaviour could be a way to stop this happening. It'll never happen, but if the guidelines were out there it could only help.
 
PurpleSpots said:
What seems to be missing - for owners, trainers and vets alike - is clear guidance on how much of a protest from the horse is 'too much'. Because, clearly, many are still not getting it.

There is a rapidly growing proportion of people in the horsey world who will indeed listen to the horse's input, but equally there is still a proportion of people who will not, who feel that the horse is there for human purposes, and that it's fine to use pressure, restriction, and coercion to get the horse to do what they want. If a task is completed that's a success and if you've gone through a difficult spell with the horse it doesn't matter as long as you get the horse to do what you want in the end.

It shouldn't be necessary, but guidelines which set out how long you are able to try to work through 'challenges' (both in the course of one session, but also over time), and at what point a level of behaviour or what combinations of behaviour should automatically cause a halt to 'training' and force veterinary investigations (or a longer-term break from training) to take place would be one way of speeding up the growth of the proportion of horses who are listened to.

Some might say that it's normal for horses to rear, buck, spin, bronc, refuse to jump, struggle with certain school movements, etc, but it is only normal for a horse to do that repeatedly when they are overwhelmed or in pain. If you work within a horse's comfort zone and they are not in pain, they simply don't express the more extreme behaviours, and they are incredibly willing. It is then also much easier to interpret the less extreme indicators of something being wrong.

So many horses who have had issues find themselves with persistant or pressurising trainers, then there's a before and after video of 'Wow, look how I turned this horse around', but more often than not the horse is having to compromise themselves to do what is required because there is and always was an underlying issue. They learn that there is no other option than to 'Just do it' and they shut down and do just that. Limiting how persistant a trainer could be in the face of various levels of behaviour could be a way to stop this happening. It'll never happen, but if the guidelines were out there it could only help.
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The problem with writing such guidelines is that each horse I’d different. Some shout from the rooftops that they are unhappy, some can be extremely subtle and will do their best to remain compliant through discomfort.
It really is a case of needing to know your own horse and advocate for them.
 
little_critter said:
The problem with writing such guidelines is that each horse I’d different. Some shout from the rooftops that they are unhappy, some can be extremely subtle and will do their best to remain compliant through discomfort.
It really is a case of needing to know your own horse and advocate for them.
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I absolutely agree, but some horses don't have anyone who will advocate for them, unfortunately.

And if even those who are yelling loudly are not heeded, what hope do the ones who are less protective of their own autonomy have?

Things have to start somewhere, surely, rather than just saying 'X won't help every horse so there's no point in doing it'?
 
sbloom said:
I'm so glad I got my beloved second horse over 20 years ago, he was headed to Anna for a few months to bring on and compete if I didn't have him. I would imagine there are scenes like that up and down the land, and that many people wouldn't think it was "abuse". We have a LONG way to go.
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True

And it is a long way to go, to things we already know about, how daft is that

The bhs has been very good on safety and management training and completely useless in their inability to read public perceptions on the open competition stage where welfare is concerned

It's like they are all frozen

Wonder who will be the first to have the courage to jump

A when it comes it will be an earthquake
 
Horseysheepy said:
I don't want to look at the link, can someone explain what happened please.
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Well basically it's a woman hiding behind an internationally recognised equestrian qualification so as to inflict cruelty on a horse by applying sustained poll pressure from the ground. At one point she stops to adjust the bit/bridle position to allow maximum pressure, horse stands politely while she does this. You may decide to switch off at that point.
 
I am no where condoning this behaviour it’s wrong on ever level.
But as a reasonably intelligent human - I can’t see the lesson so how on earth is this poor creature.
It’s not like the horse was being asked to be clipped, load and on a box, go past pigs, into water etc - so at least their could have been a right answer for the poor.

I am getting more and more annoyed at the world of the horse
 
Fellewell said:
Well basically it's a woman hiding behind an internationally recognised equestrian qualification so as to inflict cruelty on a horse by applying sustained poll pressure from the ground. At one point she stops to adjust the bit/bridle position to allow maximum pressure, horse stands politely while she does this. You may decide to switch off at that point.
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Thank you.
 
I watched it.
What a hellish experience for what looks like a young horse testing it's boundaries? and instead of calm consistent correcting it was an unnecessary act of anger.

What was the point of that downward hard tug when the horse was being good?

This way of dominating by very forcefully running a horses backwards, usually by the use a rope halter and sharp tugs of the rope until it's almost toppling backwards has never sat right with me. Especially in the growing young horse whose soft tissues around it's poll and face are still delicate.
 
I dont think it will ever be ok for a horse to be yanked on like it has, no matter what the horse has done… and No matter what education the person has. There are so many people out there who I would love to dropkick to the throat because of the way they treat their horses.
 
The trouble is though that they all support each other and are convinced that this is the ok - or even the right - way. And they don't want to upset each other, so even if they do think a person is out of line they won't say so. Or not directly to them. So the person carries on thinking it's ok. So they're as much a victim of the system and the lack of proper guidance on what is ok and what isn't. There are very few people (I hope) who given time would not look back at some of their actions on another day and wish they'd done better.

Retaliating, name-calling and publicly calling someone out isn't the best way forwards, it's through educating. In this case, educating not only a better way to get results, but also how to recognise when your own emotions are controlling your actions in a detrimental way and why and how to stop that happening.

If the educating's not happening... That's the issue isn't it.

Even if the BHS could issue a statement saying they've recognised there is a problem and they are working to address it that would be something. Anything to show they agree this isn't ok. Otherwise it sends a message that they feel it is!
 
Clodagh said:
I’m a rubbish fb sleuth but she seems to have a new profile and no eventing or equestrian page?
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I couldn't find anything and I suspect she has taken down her actual fb page, otherwise she'd need to be as busy as shouty vet at deleting and blocking people since the video came out. I suspect this one is a clone that's actually nothing to do with her.
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