Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?

BurntontheoutsideTurkey said:
He's incorrect in the same way that most modern dressage horses are, just currently he's the best out of that bunch. Over-active mouth (you can see his teeth bared very frequently), unvarying frame which means the legs are being flung in the extensions, even if not as spidery as T was (T had a lot of knee action as a young horse too), and passage is snatchy, irregular, feet moving backwards and waving around in the air as if he's not sure how/where/when to put them down, both front legs sometimes moving forward together (again, typical but a significant fault - what I saw described the other day as 'jazz hands' passage). I mean, it's just modern dressage done well, which by definition means a lot is incorrect, but people are really desperate to overlook that aspect of it because they need a new hero after the last few years and he's a great looking black stallion with a media friendly rider.
Click to expand...

I don’t see those things , you will never get perfection , he is an animal not a machine. Recently i have looked at dressage years ago and it’s not that different in the technical side , what is different is the horses don’t have such big paces … I am pretty old so remember seeing Reiner Klimke and Alheric (not sure of spelling ) and he was the one who inspired me but looking now I can see the faults.
 
Corlandus was a big moving horse, power, control of his body, natural carriage fostered by a great rider who most importantly acknowledged his feelings, treated him as a living creature to be nurtured, respected as every horse should be and for the great horse he was of that era

Unlike todays factory mass produced product
 
I'm Dun said:
It stems from when we thought of them as "dumb animals" and trained by force as we didnt know better. We do now. We know they use their own form of language, that they use tools, that they have deep social bonds and structures and that they feel pain. Things have changed and training has to change with that knowledge.
Click to expand...


My grandfather was in the cavalry and in the hunting field over a hundred years ago, they knew more than anyone I have met in my lifetime, the thing I remember him saying was to use your horse gently don't pull it about.

Seems we have gone backwards not forwards
 
BurntontheoutsideTurkey said:
He's incorrect in the same way that most modern dressage horses are, just currently he's the best out of that bunch. Over-active mouth (you can see his teeth bared very frequently), unvarying frame which means the legs are being flung in the extensions, even if not as spidery as T was (T had a lot of knee action as a young horse too), and passage is snatchy, irregular, feet moving backwards and waving around in the air as if he's not sure how/where/when to put them down, both front legs sometimes moving forward together (again, typical but a significant fault - what I saw described the other day as 'jazz hands' passage). I mean, it's just modern dressage done well, which by definition means a lot is incorrect, but people are really desperate to overlook that aspect of it because they need a new hero after the last few years and he's a great looking black stallion with a media friendly rider.
Click to expand...


True that's one of the things I look for, the ability to lengthen and shorten the frame as an indication of quality of training,

Well that's what a test should be, a test of training not a flipping circus, a horse demonstrating lengthening the frame whilst in the correct posture, well self carriage for that movement being performed

When movement says lengthen that's what should be happening
 
Lois Lame said:
No, I don't think it stems from that :)

If we hit a person or animal it's because we lost control of ourselves.

These days all we hear is how science has shown through immense, long and tedious (probably) studies that animals have feelings:rolleyes:. I get so tired of hearing on the radio or tv what science now can tell us. That isn't science. It's bleating boring facts that the average idiot has always known. (I should know because I am the average idiot.)

Anyhow Merry Christmas everyone.
Click to expand...

It does in 99.9% of cases. CDJ had no loss of control. I grew up with a system of "telling" horses what to do and upping the ante if they didnt. We didnt beat them, and there was no loss of control but there was certainly no issue whalloping a horse misbehaving. That still exists in an awful lot of places sadly. I see so many videos of lame/stressed/hurting horses being forced to do things and the riders being praised. They cant or wont hear the horse screaming something is wrong. In a lot of cases its not knowing any better, but in some its not caring.
 
From another thread...
Red-1 said:
I'm just home from a weekend in London, Monday night performance at the show, after a day shopping.

I thought the shopping was OK.

The Grand Prix was excellent, as were the dogs jumping, the Shetlands (although I thought a couple of the riders were a little large, not for the welfare exactly on the ponies, but for the sight it was), the jockeys were better than I thought they would be, the on foot jumping was great.

I wasn't over excited about 2 chariots as it was so obviously staged and no real excitement but...

The Hungarian thing was awful!

never even looked at the darker horses, as the riders were covered in capes, I couldn't get beyond the grey horses. The front rider had a lovely seat, the second rider was unbalanced and tilted in his pelvis and his horse very unhappy, yawping at the bridle and knocked off balance. The poor horse obviously knew the ropes but was hampered. It was certainly not something I would care to see. Riders 3 and 4 (female) were nice but the actual performance was mediocre. I would agree that the RC Quadrille would have been more exciting. Other than a single flying change and the rider no 1 on the grey, the rest did a pony club type musical ride.

When the second set of riders came in, I hoped for better, with the high school movements. No! The horses looked forced and stressed. The ridden ones did a poor presentation of passage, swishing of tails. The in-hand ones were sad to watch. Tight reins and whippy encouragement from behind.

I cringed.

I videoed every other act, as it was my BF's first big show, but I could not bring myself to video the disrespect and stress those horses were put under. I thought we'd moved on as a horse community, but no. It was stressing horses for doing whatever they could get away with. I was so sad.

I lifted some photos today from FB. I will attempt to upload. This is what I saw. I was sad.

On a brighter note, it was a fab jump-off and I loved seeing John Whitaker. Loved the 50 year age gap in the top 4. Some fabulous horses.View attachment 170616View attachment 170617

How anyone enjoyed watching this, I do not know!

I saw stress and force.

I am surprised at the organisers.

This was not 'a moment on time' it was indicative of the performance.
Click to expand...
I think the photos are telling...

598944652_1405479274550148_2925785357166176507_n.jpg601102562_869489462679359_4784525296705968583_n.jpg


In the name of entertainment.

There are many, many more photos floating around from their performance.
 
I'm Dun said:
It does in 99.9% of cases. CDJ had no loss of control. I grew up with a system of "telling" horses what to do and upping the ante if they didnt. We didnt beat them, and there was no loss of control but there was certainly no issue whalloping a horse misbehaving. That still exists in an awful lot of places sadly. I see so many videos of lame/stressed/hurting horses being forced to do things and the riders being praised. They cant or wont hear the horse screaming something is wrong. In a lot of cases its not knowing any better, but in some its not caring.
Click to expand...
And that escalation is still taught through our teaching qualifications today - you still hear "get after him", "use your whip", "give him a smack"

I've got very fussy which clinics I'll go to because of those kind of phrases from very qualified teachers. Its easy to see how that can progress to escalation from a tap on the legs to encourage piaffe to a whack on the legs.

I have zero problem with riding with a schooling whip but its very, very easy to overstep the mark.
 
Even some of the "best" instruction is about riding the hind leg into the hand, and this is compression, pure and simple. It shortens the neck and drives the leg under the body before the joints are able to flex enough to use the pelvis to stop the horse falling forwards, but the hand and the shorten neck mistakenly stops that falling forwards, causing compromise throughout the body. I would say this forms the basis of the vast majority of training.

Balance, and as Manolo Mendez says - "long the neck, short the body" - are key.
 
I'm trawling around trying to find a trainer at the moment. I've had some fabulous classical lessons from a lovely, very well educated (and gentle) lady...but the dates of her clinics mean I can only see her a handful of times a year, and I feel I need some help more frequently than that.
I just can't find anyone I like the look of in my area. I search for Classical Trainer, find loads of hits, then when I look at their pictures I see the same old heavy handed competition dressage.
I think I'll ask lovely trainer if she knows of anyone she would feel comfortable recommending to back up her training in the months I can't see her.
 
sbloom said:
Even some of the "best" instruction is about riding the hind leg into the hand, and this is compression, pure and simple. It shortens the neck and drives the leg under the body before the joints are able to flex enough to use the pelvis to stop the horse falling forwards, but the hand and the shorten neck mistakenly stops that falling forwards, causing compromise throughout the body. I would say this forms the basis of the vast majority of training.

Balance, and as Manolo Mendez says - "long the neck, short the body" - are key.
Click to expand...
My favourite quote from my trainer is "his neck belongs to him"
Which I interpret as "you can only take up as much rein as he gives you". If his outline is too long then address it through your seat or through the exercise....but you CAN'T just reel his neck in by shortening your reins.
 
little_critter said:
I'm trawling around trying to find a trainer at the moment. I've had some fabulous classical lessons from a lovely, very well educated (and gentle) lady...but the dates of her clinics mean I can only see her a handful of times a year, and I feel I need some help more frequently than that.
I just can't find anyone I like the look of in my area. I search for Classical Trainer, find loads of hits, then when I look at their pictures I see the same old heavy handed competition dressage.
I think I'll ask lovely trainer if she knows of anyone she would feel comfortable recommending to back up her training in the months I can't see her.
Click to expand...

I think so many people end up doing a few multi day, or at least multi lesson, clinics with someone a bit further afield, thinking of Soft and Sound in Devon for you, but it's a hike. There may be others closer, but it's not easy especially if you need someone to come to you.
 
sbloom said:
I think so many people end up doing a few multi day, or at least multi lesson, clinics with someone a bit further afield, thinking of Soft and Sound in Devon for you, but it's a hike. There may be others closer, but it's not easy especially if you need someone to come to you.
Click to expand...
I can go to them, but Soft & Sound is 2 hours plus away, and I know she a Legerate person which I've tried in the past and I just couldn't gel with it.
 
little_critter said:
I can go to them, but Soft & Sound is 2 hours plus away, and I know she a Legerate person which I've tried in the past and I just couldn't gel with it.
Click to expand...

No that's fair enough. I think she's recent to Legerete and of course everyone will be a little different even with the same approach, but...it's so long since I covered the area I'm not so au fait with other approaches. Though actually there's an ex Straightness Training lady who isn't a million miles from you, she now trains with Bettina Biolik/Academic Art of Riding I think...will see if I can find her as I can't remember her name.
 
little_critter said:
My favourite quote from my trainer is "his neck belongs to him"
Which I interpret as "you can only take up as much rein as he gives you". If his outline is too long then address it through your seat or through the exercise....but you CAN'T just reel his neck in by shortening your reins.
Click to expand...
Yes. The trouble is you *can*, and that's what most people do, because they don't have the tools to do much else. I did it. I was only just learning to do otherwise when I had to stop riding (how annoying is that)
 
  • Like
Reactions: tda
BurntontheoutsideTurkey said:
Yes. The trouble is you *can*, and that's what most people do, because they don't have the tools to do much else. I did it. I was only just learning to do otherwise when I had to stop riding (how annoying is that)
Click to expand...
I was at my first lesson with new trainer, she asked me to move off, I gathered up my reins and before we’d even taken one step she was “let me stop you there….”
So I’m pretty new to it too but as I tend to ride with light contact, it’s a ‘rule’ I can get behind.
 
sbloom said:
No that's fair enough. I think she's recent to Legerete and of course everyone will be a little different even with the same approach, but...it's so long since I covered the area I'm not so au fait with other approaches. Though actually there's an ex Straightness Training lady who isn't a million miles from you, she now trains with Bettina Biolik/Academic Art of Riding I think...will see if I can find her as I can't remember her name.
Click to expand...
Jacqui Billington?
 
I remember when I was growing up and in a riding school you would always be told that the horses neck shortens in trot so gather your reins first. Sad times! I wish we all had to learn on the lunge first :(
 
Sadly the 'litigation culture' has mostly stopped riding schools doing more than basic work without stirrups in case of people falling off.

My riding school had us, even as beginners/novices, without stirrups and up and down the jumping lane with dropped reins, no stirrups and hands on shoulders/head. You soon learnt an independent seat and not to need to hang onto the reins for balance. That was late 50s/very early 60s.

Even as a fairly experienced 20 yrd old in a different school, when I was good enough to attend 'staff lessons' with Marie Stokes as the instructor, we did at least 75% of most lessons, including jumping, without stirrups. (If you were put on one of the horses with pneumatic drill trots it did get a bit painful at times for the rider)

Different times and different horse welfare in regard to riders going without stirrups for long periods but it certainly taught me never to ride with a strong contact to achieve results. Also, whilst it was always taught that you worked the horse thru from the hindquarters into a light but 'resisting' hand it wasn't taught that you just kept kicking with both legs. Instead it was always taught 'inside leg to outside hand' - leg creating the impulsion and bend of the horse's body, with the hand controlling the tempo/pace and the amount of bend.
 
Last edited:
I remember our daughter training down a lane of cavaletties (sp) no stirrups with arms held out and eyes closed aged 8 on a Shetland. She was always complimented on her secure independent seat and ability to stick on tricky ponies. Can you imagine most parents at a RS now if that happened? And yes she did fall off occasionally as said Shetland was a little b*gger but no harm done.
 
misst said:
I remember our daughter training down a lane of cavaletties (sp) no stirrups with arms held out and eyes closed aged 8 on a Shetland. She was always complimented on her secure independent seat and ability to stick on tricky ponies. Can you imagine most parents at a RS now if that happened? And yes she did fall off occasionally as said Shetland was a little b*gger but no harm done.
Click to expand...
I learned to ride on a local lady's shetlands. One was sweet but very round - so I rolled off a few times. The other was a little **** who would put his head down to eat then when the adults got far enough ahead would charge after them & stop dead. I did learn to have a pretty secure seat very young!! We used to go down jump lanes like your daughter too. Any unscheduled dismounts just got you legged back on board.

Alternatively you can be the parent of a lesson a friend was teaching whose daughter gently rolled off at a walk. All was under control until there was a screech and the mother came hurtling across the arena sending small ponies in all directions!
 
So excuse my lack of total understanding but a horse is competing against vetinary advice and the owners wishes? Which horse and rider? Sorry if I missed the obvious which I sometimes do on FB.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top