Young promising horse but.. WWYD?

[Hormonal Filly]

I have quite a smart horse that just did her first 70cm ODE on the weekend. Shes a rising 6yo ISH.

We got a double clear, although it was our first time jumping on grass she locked onto the fences and gave me a great feel. Dressage test wasn't a great score as she spooked and exited the arena at F (really made me laugh, first dressage on grass)

She had her hock operated on just over a year ago to remove a large chip. She has had Arthramid three times since, the last time was last month. She doesn't go lame, but she has a good hock action and goes stiff through the operated hock if she has done a lot - ie. jumping although we’ve been having lessons at 90cm with no stiffness after. We x-rayed end of last year and no arthritis was found, so vet thinks its probably inflammation somewhere that causes the stiffness. The Arthramid has never made a big difference but hopefully it helps the joint in some way.

The ground on the weekend was quite hard and stony. Today her hock is puffy and shes is stiff (been out all night) haven't trotted her up. Spoke to my vet who advised bute for a couple of days and in future to bute after a event (I should of done this, but totally forgot with the 4am start) I asked him if eventing her would be detrimental, but he wants me to keep going and be careful about the ground.

I planned to do a few events this season at 70/80, she is fit and looks great, physio happy. She seems to enjoy it, her first start box and she cantered out like she'd done it all her life. She moves great in the videos from the weekend.

So my question is... WWYD? Would you carry on with your goal? Would you change your plans? She really is a super sweet genuine girl and my only horse. I've just started her on 4cyte. I'd love a foal from her one day, but aware the chip is possibly OCD - or related to a fall on the road she had 2022.

 

[ihatework]

My take on the situation from the brief details you have given is that she is unlikely to stay sound long term, if you are already seeing post event impacts.

So I see it that you either aim for her longevity under saddle by minimising her workload and have her as a happy hack

or

You have some fun with her and accept that the duration of that will be limited.

In all honesty I'd probably do the latter, but crucially provided she was keen and happy to do the job. The minute she starts to struggle / does not appear keen then stop. Be mindful of ground and offer the anti-inflammatories post event. It's not like you are doing anything particularly strenuous - popping around 80cm is RC level stuff. Some will judge you for this, but not me.

As for breeding, get a vet that has seen her xrays to give you an opinion on OCD. If they think the liklihood is OCD (it could easily have been exacerbated by an external event) then don't breed.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Just the type of reply I was looking for @ihatework, thank you.

She is so bonded to me, if I wasn’t so attached to her I’d probably sell as a happy hack. I guess loaning is an option.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Agree with above really but I have no interest in jumping so it wouldn't bother me to go down a dressage or showing route.

I have however made changes to my current horses ridden work due to various things they have wrong with them because I want them to have a longer ridden life.

But each to their own really it's just down to the individual.

 

[paddi22]

if I was you i'd keep her happy work wise for a few years but be very precious about ground.I've a similar one and I only event on perfect ground or would concentrate on arena based smaller events. i'd also throw every gadget I had on to help the hock (arc equine, red laser, back on track hock boot, ice vibes etc) and see what helps. and try every herb/old wives tale/treatment to help the inflammation

 

[pistolpete]

Seems harsh to jump her knowing she has a weakness so young. Will most likely have issues as she ages. Hope I’m wrong.

 

[doodle]

I couldn't in good conscience so anything with a rising 6yo that I knew would.mean they were sore and swollen the next day.

 

[ycbm]

I'm very sorry you've got this problem, but I couldn't continue to work a horse at 6 (or at any age but especially not that young) at a level which is clearly causing a detrimental physical reaction.

I think if you continue, that you need to look it square in the face that you are almost certainly going to shorten her working life and to cause her aches and pains, and quite possibly shorten her time on the planet.

I did think of not posting but that makes it pretty pointless to post the thread if people don't post if they think you won't want to hear it.

Again, I'm sorry you are one of the many people struggling to maintain soundness in their horses, they are such heartbreakers.
.

 

[Zoeypxo]

Sorry have to agree with the above, if shes becoming stiff and needing bute after being ridden at 6, something needs to change

 

[Cortez]

I wouldn't work any horse, in any serious sport, that had had an operation on a joint. I certainly wouldn't ride it if this resulted in obvious swelling and pain (call it "stiffness" if it pleases you). Nor would I ride it if I had to medicate it to do so.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thank you all, good to have others thoughts on this. My vet seems to think if she gets fitter and competes on softer ground, hopefully it won’t happen again.

I think if you continue, that you need to look it square in the face that you are almost certainly going to shorten her working life and to cause her aches and pains, and quite possibly shorten her time on the planet.

Yes, that is true. Doesn’t help she is a total lunatic in the field (in a herd, lots of space) but just likes running around. Part of me does think, majority of horses aren’t quite right or a tenth lame and owners don’t even notice.

Again, I'm sorry you are one of the many people struggling to maintain soundness in their horses, they are such heartbreakers.

My third horse I’ve been unable to keep sound, all under 10. All looked after like Royals. She isn’t cheap to keep with regumate, 4cyte, Vitamin E, balancer plus livery etc.

If I’m honest, I don’t want to happy hack, I did it for several years on my last horse before selling. Need to have a good think.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I wouldn't work any horse, in any serious sport, that had had an operation on a joint. I certainly wouldn't ride it if this resulted in obvious swelling and pain (call it "stiffness" if it pleases you). Nor would I ride it if I had to medicate it to do so.

A lot of sports horses have bone chips removed, after speaking to a top independent surgeon last year, some never have an issue after. Tons of horses have joints medicated, but interesting to hear your opinion.

 

[ycbm]

If I’m honest, I don’t want to happy hack, I did it for several years on my last horse before selling.

I get that. I was devastated in early 2022 when I got a diagnosis on an 8 year old that meant my "horse of a lifetime" would likely be damaged if I continued to do more than hack on straight lines. In a way it was something of a relief that field rest for lameness resulted in such a severe deterioration of a vitamin E related muscle weakness left me with few options.

They are heartbreakers, I'm so sorry this is three in a row for you. Long ago, in the 80's, I named a horse Third Time Lucky for the same reason. She wasn't.
.

 

[Michen]

I think IHWs reply is the one I would want to hear as an owner understandably wanting to enjoy their horse.

But honestly no I couldn’t continue to do that to a horse showing obvious discomfort the next day. I dont see the issue competing horses who have had surgery, steroids, whatever, if the treatment has allowed them to become sound and comfortable for the job (including post job). I wouldn’t be too worried about maybe some stiffness after an event or a days hunting in an arthritic horse but an actual swollen joint and lameness… no.

That said, if the alternative for her is PTS then a shortened life where she can be useful, brutal as it sounds, isn’t necessary a bad thing.

If you want to be completely on the side of the horse it would be allowing her to have a life that her joint can cope with, hacking or whatnot. But I totally appreciate why you’d want to utilise her.

So sorry you are in this position.

 

[Cortez]

A lot of sports horses have bone chips removed, after speaking to a top independent surgeon last year, some never have an issue after. Tons of horses have joints medicated, but interesting to hear your opinion.

My opinion is based on my experience. I have had bone chips removed from young horses, from knees, fetlock, hocks and stifles. None have ever not had an issue afterwards, and I am not going to bute or inject horses in order to ride them. Other people may be fine doing so; I'm not.

 

[coblets]

Buting after a competition is practically the same as buting in preparation for a competition, and the latter is banned for a reason. Her being stiff despite being out all night would also make me very uncomfortable to keep putting her joints through that.

 

[IrishMilo]

Your vets way of thinking seems a bit odd to me. Was she SO unfit that doing a 70 would have made her NQR? I struggle to believe it.

It's gutting, but I think you have to do what feels right for you. Personally, I would have to change plan.

 

[maya2008]

I would sell as a happy hack if that’s a level of work she is comfortable in. Low level hacking should give her longevity and she’ll bond with her new owner in time.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Was she SO unfit that doing a 70 would have made her NQR? I struggle to believe it.

Well, she finished the cross country without any sweat and wasn’t puffing.

I would sell as a happy hack if that’s a level of work she is comfortable in. Low level hacking should give her longevity and she’ll bond with her new owner in time.

That was my thoughts. Problem is she’s so genuine, someone could pop a fence up and she’d fly it. I guess it’s just the risk with selling horses, would want to find the right owner.

 

[ihatework]

I personally would not sell this horse, if I decided not to manage the condition for my purposes and wanted to limit to hacking but not for me, it would be a loan only. I’d want oversight and the legal right to retrieve horse / retire / pts - whatever was in their best interests.

 

[Jango]

I'd loan her out as a happy hack. Then you can vet the home and make sure it's the right one.

Horses are prey animals and they hide lameness, any swelling or lameness after an event for a ongoing vet issue would mean for me they aren't standing up to the work (different if they had a knock or a fall).

It's so shit though. Big hugs.

 

[pistolpete]

She’d be ideal for someone like me to loan if that was the way you went. I have no desire to jump but love to hack. I’m not looking at the moment but genuine loan homes to exist.

 

[quiteniceforacob]

I’m so sorry, I agree with those saying I couldn’t work her like this. I’d also be very wary of the vet and seek a second opinion. Many horses are fine after this kind of surgery so maybe the options haven’t been fully explored.

Also, what is the arthramid doing if no arthritis is there? I thought it acted to replace the fluid that was missing in arthritic joints?

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I'm another who couldn't knowingly work a horse like this to any degree. Have bought horses in the past for one job but ended up doing something else that suited the horse more. If you really want to be competitive, find something sound that can go on, and find this lovely young horse a home more suited.

 

[Patterdale]

I could not work a horse knowing it would make it sore the next day, sorry.

I would turn this horse away for at least one, likely 2 years and ride something else in the meantime. If she was better after the 2 years great, if not then loan to a hacking home or just keep turned away.

I absolutely would not just keep going until the inevitable complete breakdown occurs, that’s not a fair or right thing we should be doing to our horses. Sorry.

I do get how hard this is.

ETA also I’d be questioning the vet’s opinion here. Arthramid x 3 in the space of a year, buting the horse to ride and being advised to ride a lame horse in the first place are all a bit….much, in my opinion.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Also, what is the arthramid doing if no arthritis is there? I thought it acted to replace the fluid that was missing in arthritic joints?

It replaces the fluid, lubricating the joint. It’s possible there is arthritis within the joint but not visible on X-ray.

ETA also I’d be questioning the vet’s opinion here. Arthramid x 3 in the space of a year, buting the horse to ride and being advised to ride a lame horse in the first place are all a bit….much, in my opinion.

My vet is an independent lameness vet. She’s had arthramid 3x in 16 months, she isn’t lame daily. She would most likely pass a 5* I’ve been told, she isn’t lame after flexion etc, it’s happened twice (this time after the event on the weekend and the same thing happened mid last year after cross country, ground was quite hard)

I’m anal so know other than this she was moving lovely and pop her on the lunge to check/send videos to my vet regularly.

 

[ihatework]

It replaces the fluid, lubricating the joint. It’s possible there is arthritis within the joint but not visible on X-ray.


My vet is an independent lameness vet. She’s had arthramid 3x in 16 months, she isn’t lame daily. She would most likely pass a 5* I’ve been told, she isn’t lame after flexion etc, it’s happened twice (this time after the event on the weekend and the same thing happened mid last year after cross country, ground was quite hard)

I’m anal so know other than this she was moving lovely and pop her on the lunge to check/send videos to my vet regularly.

You were always going to get these sorts of replies. Go with your vets advice - the one who sees the horse regularly. It’s a valid view to not compete a compromised horse, but I do think some people can over interpret and form a picture of a lame unhappy horse being asked to do things unethical. In your own words you have a sound horse enjoying the job. Overdid things on not ideal ground.
So be more mindful of the ground. And if you get it wrong then give the horse some Bute. If it keeps happening then you will need to reevaluate.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Thats quite alot of treatment in that amount of time and my guess is over time you will probably need more if you continue to jump her.

Both my horses have had the gel and steroid in various joints for arthritis and soft tissue problems and it's lasted years, one is 19 and 20 but I took this into consideration and am careful with what they do.

I wouldn't sell a horse with her issues I would loan from my yard, retire or pts.

 

[Patterdale]

The problem I have with the treatment is that it’s a heck of a lot in a short space of time, on a young horse, and it hasn’t fixed it.
I don’t have a problem with treating horses to ride them per se. One of our ponies has had arthramid, however she is 17 and it’s meant that she has been able to carry on enjoying work and staying fit. If she was needing arthramid multiple times per year and still wasn’t sound then I’d stop putting her through it, personally.
But yours is only 6, which is even more reason to admit defeat for now and turn away, in my opinion. She’s telling you loud and clear, or rather her hock is.

That’s just my opinion, you did ask. I do hope that you find a resolution that works for both of you.

 

[ycbm]

HF I don't think anyone posts a thread like this one on the forum without knowing in their hearts what they think the right answer is. There is a reason why you haven't been 100% satisfied with what your vet has told you and why you felt you needed support from the forum if you were to follow their advice.

Unfortunately, the majority of posters have not agreed with following your vet's advice. Not all vets are equal in their judgement of acceptable risk, particularly, ime, those who deal with sports horses which were bought for the purposes of competing. And there doesn't seem much doubt that since the "normal" time expected from arthramid is 2 years, she's already had a lot of treatment with 3 in 16 months.

In the absence of support from anyone other than one very experienced poster whose horses event, could I gently suggest you go back to following what your heart says? If you would feel comfortable with her staying sound a shorter time of you continue to compete, then you should crack on. If you would kick yourself if she has to be retired to hacking on straight lines (or to the field) very early, then you would need to stop now.

There's no judgement in this post, both choices are valid. If I was your age again when I was driven to event, I would probably take the vet's advice. It's just a question of understanding what your own real feelings are.

Whether on her or on another horse, I hope you can get a good season eventing.
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