Young promising horse but.. WWYD?

[Hormonal Filly]

Has the horse been for a thorough workup since the operation? Could it be a suspensory issue? They can lurk in a phantom way, and can cause enough pain to bring ulcers on. It could also cause the one sidedness.

I wouldn't treat the ulcers without also trying to find out what is causing them.

I'd book into a main horse hospital for a full workup with fresh eyes. Nerve block from bottom upwards in each leg. That may take 4 visits.

My vet is a lameness vet, he has visited several times since the operation. He has seen her lunge, flexion tested her etc etc. He doesn't think its the hock. Could be a suspensory issue. I would like him to nerve block the hock and see if it helps but aware nerve blocking the hock can sometimes block the suspensory as well.

She is no longer insured for her hock, I'm not sure how I could get a full work up done on the insurance. I don't trust any of the 'main horse hospitals' around here, had several bad experiences but maybe more options further afield. She has a open claim for her neck and another for ulcers because we scoped last year, not sure which claim it would be able to go under? I'm extremely short at the moment money wise.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

happy in the field with the sweet itch and generally happy.

The problem with this is she hates being left out 24/7, even with a field mate. She is a lunatic in the field when not in any work, so not convinced it would make a difference healing wise.

 

[SEL]

My retired pssm horse lunges beautifully to the left and is cranky and NQR to the right. Her lameness goes across the diagonal - left hind / right fore. I think right fore is from compensating for hock bone spur and chronic suspensory damage left hind.

Its difficult to know how much ££ to throw at them but I'd say nerve block before the ulcer route. It's not that expensive (as vet bills go) to see if its that hock still being problematic

But it's a total PITA when you can't get to the bottom of it.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Hind gut ulcers can currently only be confirmed on a post mortem exam .

Diagnosis of hind gut acidosis in a live horse is based on symptoms coupled with scoping for and not finding foregut ulcers. Bute will aggravate hind gut ulcers.

The Equibiome test is non invasive, you need a poop sample. It was recommended to me by two vets. My hind gut issues mare’s Equibiome results were crazily off kilter, but we got her far more comfortable by following the recommended fairly simple supplementation protocol. Unfortunately I lost her to an unrelated issue.

She had been properly cranky and about to be PTS until we sorted out the hind gut. We got another three years from her.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thanks again for the responses.

My vet reviewed the videos and thinks she is moving well, possibly the best he has seen her but clearly something isn't quite right by what I've said. We've decided to do a bute trial, he wants me to video her lunging tomorrow and get someone to video me riding her as well. He doesn't think ulcers, although said you can't tell with hindgut but he has never seen ulcers make 'that' much of a difference between left and right rein.

@Tiddlypom I'm assuming if its ulcers, the bute will aggravate them and not reduce their pain?

 

[Michen]

If you are doing a bute trial but worried about it worsening potential ulcers, why not pop her on some omeprazole alongside it to counter it? That's what my vet recommends. You could even do half a tube of it just to help prevent them from worsening or even starting because of the bute. Or some sucralfate.

ETA I don't know if it's different in the UK with scoping and stuff, in USA omeprazole is handed out like candy, I do think people are much more on it with using it for prevention with travel, any kind of stress, drugs etc.

 

[dorsetladette]

Is it time for fresh eyes on this?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Is it time for fresh eyes on this?

I don't trust any 'chains' and have two open claims for neck and ulcers. I'm not sure how it would work getting a second opinion, as in, if it could go on the insurance or not.

If I don't get any answers soon, I'll try and find another independent vet.

 

[Tiddlypom]

@Tiddlypom I'm assuming if its ulcers, the bute will aggravate them and not reduce their pain?

Yes. My mare went from cranky to dangerous on a brief bute trial - I soon stopped it .

Her symptoms, including her reaction to the bute trial, were highly suggestive of foregut ulcers, but to everyone’s surprise she scoped clear. That led to her being treated as if she had hindgut ulcers, and she improved rapidly once on that track.

It was likely that she was left with permanent hind gut scarring due to the length of time it took us all to work out why she had got cranky. Didn’t get a pm done, I lost her to a brain tumour 3 years after the hind gut was sorted.

 

[webble]

I don't trust any 'chains' and have two open claims for neck and ulcers. I'm not sure how it would work getting a second opinion, as in, if it could go on the insurance or not.

If I don't get any answers soon, I'll try and find another independent vet.

where in the world are you? maybe someone could suggest someone?

There arent many left that arent part of a chain that have facilities unfortunately

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Yes. My mare went from cranky to dangerous on a brief bute trial - I soon stopped it .

Her symptoms, including her reaction to the bute trial, were highly suggestive of foregut ulcers, but to everyone’s surprise she scoped clear. That led to her being treated as if she had hindgut ulcers, and she improved rapidly once on that track.

It was likely that she was left with permanent hind gut scarring due to the length of time it took us all to work out why she had got cranky. Didn’t get a pm done, I lost her to a brain tumour 3 years after the hind gut was sorted.

So sorry to hear about your mare. Well done on finding the problem! How soon did you notice a change? When we tried ulcer treatment short term, she was on it for 2-3 weeks but I saw no difference.

She does reacts to the girth area being touched and is much more reactive to my right leg, compared to my left.

where in the world are you? maybe someone could suggest someone?

I'm SW based. I've been recommended one from B&W (John Killingbeck) might be worth getting a second opinion.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Update for my own sanity, to look back through.
Tried a bute trial, 3 bute a day. Lunged her on the 3rd day into the bute trial, she was noticeably more unhappy. Extremely tail swishy and grumpy on the left rein which the week before she went really nicely (long, low) No difference in movement of her hock. Vet saw pre bute videos and videos of her on bute, he can't see any lameness and agrees to try ulcer meds.

 

[HeresHoping]

Just throwing this out there. Has she cracked a rib?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Just throwing this out there. Has she cracked a rib?

Any idea how something like that would be diagnosed? She doesn't show any discomfort when touching her ribs, unless going by her belly/girth area.

 

[Parrotperson]

You were always going to get these sorts of replies. Go with your vets advice - the one who sees the horse regularly. It’s a valid view to not compete a compromised horse, but I do think some people can over interpret and form a picture of a lame unhappy horse being asked to do things unethical. In your own words you have a sound horse enjoying the job. Overdid things on not ideal ground.
So be more mindful of the ground. And if you get it wrong then give the horse some Bute. If it keeps happening then you will need to reevaluate.

and maybe use Danilon not Bute. kinder to the gut.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

and maybe use Danilon not Bute. kinder to the gut.

She was on Danilon

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Last week I started to soak her hay and increase from 2kg during the day (and out muzzled at night) to 3kg during the day plus 3kg at night.

I added Aloe Vera juice to her feed and bought a sack of Honeychop Oat Straw chaff which she has a bucket full in her stable everyday (first day she ate a huge mouthful, then spat it out and hasn't touched it since) I've bought some 'Vital Buffer' from Equine Vitality which is recommended on the Ulcer Facebook page.

Lunged yesterday. No tail swishing, happy to go forward to voice, didn't hold her head to the outside once. Don't want to get to excited.. but a much nicer picture. Will see how things go.

 

[dorsetladette]

Sounds promising - hope things keep going in the same direction.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Had a shared jump lesson this weekend on surface, only about 70cm grid. She did great on the left rein, but right rein she canters around really forward and then after the right bend to the fence, 2/3 strides out looses all impulsion. Like a car stalling.

She has done this a few times in the last month but instructors made it out to be me. This weekend the instructor said go back around, so I did with more leg and she then did a nasty refusal on the last of the gridwork, causing me to fly into the wing. Cut my arm, hurt my neck. She had seen the fence and jumped it prior, no excuse to refuse other than pain.

She might not look lame, but clearly something is wrong. I’ve got another vet to contact for a second opinion, I think scanning her suspensories is a good call or it could still be that right hock she had operated on causing a problem. The weird thing is this has only started since she had her neck medicated. She did it once on a bute trial, but I’m aware Bute doesn’t stop all pain.. it’s almost like she bends right and goes neurological, so just stops? I don’t know. It’s very odd.

Written the advert to loan her as a happy hack but want to chat with the vet first about their thoughts.

 

[Michen]

I don’t know if it was non related but two weeks after Bog had his neck medicated (when he should have been at the peak of it helping) was when he had his huge ataxic episode. There is a possibility it caused an inflammatory response or something went wrong etc. Could be a possibility here.

 

[webble]

If she is pain somewhere is loaning as a hack fair to her?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

If she is pain somewhere is loaning as a hack fair to her?

That’s why I plan to have my vet and a second opinion vet lined up have a look.

I did consider turning away for 6 months but I can’t see how that will help an arthritic neck and poss joint problem.

 

[IrishMilo]

You're in an unfortunate position where you don't actually know what you're treating, but my friend (and I know others) has had great success with Ron Fields ulcer powder, it's all natural stuff. Her horse was diagnosed with grade 4 ulcers pre-treatment and scoped at grade 1 a few weeks ago, and was only given the Ron Fields stuff. Might be worth a try given it's a cheap easy option? You could also look into the Hempine CBD supplements, again I know of a few people who have sworn by the results.

I'm going through pretty much the exact same with my TB, neck and hock changes and a bute trial didn't make a difference. I'm still torn between chucking everything there is to do at him and just letting him be...however that looks.

 

[Squeak]

You're in an unfortunate position where you don't actually know what you're treating, but my friend (and I know others) has had great success with Ron Fields ulcer powder, it's all natural stuff. Her horse was diagnosed with grade 4 ulcers pre-treatment and scoped at grade 1 a few weeks ago, and was only given the Ron Fields stuff. Might be worth a try given it's a cheap easy option? You could also look into the Hempine CBD supplements, again I know of a few people who have sworn by the results.

I'm going through pretty much the exact same with my TB, neck and hock changes and a bute trial didn't make a difference. I'm still torn between chucking everything there is to do at him and just letting him be...however that looks.

I've had brilliant results with Ron Fields for stomach/ gut issues with my boy.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Might be worth a try given it's a cheap easy option? You could also look into the Hempine CBD supplements, again I know of a few people who have sworn by the results.

Sorry to hear about your boy. Thank you for your thoughts. She has been on aloe Vera and a hindgut supplement (highly recommended on the ulcer page) for almost 2 weeks now, her poos have improved but she’s also fed soaked hay now and I’ve upped the quantity.

Its almost when I ask for a right bend in canter she feels like can’t go forward and the power behind disappears, when turning to a fence you make more of a turn than when cantering large, which could poss pin point to neurological/neck like @Michen mentioned about her gelding. My mares neck was medicated 2 months ago now though.

 

[Squeak]

Sorry to hear about your boy. Thank you for your thoughts. She has been on aloe Vera and a hindgut supplement (highly recommended on the ulcer page) for almost 2 weeks now, her poos have improved but she’s also fed soaked hay now and I’ve upped the quantity.

Its almost when I ask for a right bend in canter she feels like can’t go forward and the power behind disappears, when turning to a fence you make more of a turn than when cantering large, which could poss pin point to neurological/neck like @Michen mentioned about her gelding. My mares neck was medicated 2 months ago now though.

I've found that sometimes some supplements work better for some horses than others which is why it's so hard to find one - for my boy aloe vera didn't work at all unfortunately.

A tight circle in right canter would be asking the right hind to really step under which could aggravate the gut more than in the other direction and movements - by losing power and not stepping under she could be protecting herself from the hind gut - it could be a whole long list of other things though too. I can't remember if I've mentioned on this thread already but a cheap easy thing that I also found to help was to give a feed just before I rode with sugarbeet in as the pectins form a mucus which protects the stomach lining and having food in their stomach helps to reduce acid splashing.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

A tight circle in right canter would be asking the right hind to really step under which could aggravate the gut more than in the other direction and movements - by losing power and not stepping under she could be protecting herself from the hind gut - it could be a whole long list of other things though too. I can't remember if I've mentioned on this thread already but a cheap easy thing that I also found to help was to give a feed just before I rode with sugarbeet in as the pectins form a mucus which protects the stomach lining and having food in their stomach helps to reduce acid splashing.

Thank you Squeak. The right hind is the hind she had the chip removed from, so does leave the question if it’s causing some pain even though she isn’t lame. She had eaten a haynet and had a feed of dry oat straw chaff before the lesson on the weekend

 

[Squeak]

Thank you Squeak. The right hind is the hind she had the chip removed from, so does leave the question if it’s causing some pain even though she isn’t lame. She had eaten a haynet and had a feed of dry oat straw chaff before the lesson on the weekend

It's so hard trying to work it all out, hope you manage to find the answers to it. They're such heartbreakers

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thank you.. I totally agree, they are heartbreakers!

I mentioned to my usual vet about scanning her suspensories and he said he highly doubts its that, she doesn't move like she has a problem with her suspensories. I'm waiting to hear back from another independent lameness vet for a second opinion. I don't have a lot to spend, I know the lameness work up he charges £200 (and can take up to 1.5hrs) plus a visit charge, but there is a point you can't keep throwing money at it - she just is such a nice genuine horse.

 

[Michen]

Thank you.. I totally agree, they are heartbreakers!

I mentioned to my usual vet about scanning her suspensories and he said he highly doubts its that, she doesn't move like she has a problem with her suspensories. I'm waiting to hear back from another independent lameness vet for a second opinion. I don't have a lot to spend, I know the lameness work up he charges £200 (and can take up to 1.5hrs) plus a visit charge, but there is a point you can't keep throwing money at it - she just is such a nice genuine horse.

HF I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that a work up over jump lessons is far more important. And honestly, I don’t think I’d even be thinking about jumping this horse at the moment full stop until you have some consistent time where she’s seemed like a normal horse. You mention that she’s done this a few times over the last mont but it really sounds like this horse should be hacking at the most until she’s proven that she is consistently sound/happy which she hasn’t. If there is something neuro going on you could be heading for an accident. I really hope you get it worked out and sorry you are having to go through it.