Young promising horse but.. WWYD?

[webble]

There's a difference between coming back from a jog or workout feeling generally sore/tired and your joints becoming painful and inflamed though? And there's a difference between exercise that supports us/makes us stronger and exercise which puts force on joints which can't stand up to it.

I don't know enough to have an opinion really OP but think I would be cautious so either rest her for extended period of time then see if she could come back gradually to the job you want her to do, or look for a loan home that can give her a job more in line with what she can do now.

Yup. I used to run, did a few halfs and was training for a marathon. I got to the point where I couldnt stand up when I woke up my left foot and hip said no and so I stopped running a few years ago. I do other low impact sports well and happily. I tried running again last month and after a few days was back to being lame

 

[Peglo]

I’ve had surgery on my knee (not completely successfully) but I still have a very active lifestyle. I can no longer play netball but I run and I’m decently quick. On occasion when I push it, it swells and sorry to say it is almost always sore with it.
I look fit, I get good times running but neither means I’m not in pain, which I often am. Doing too much sitting is almost the worst thing for it but I can also push it too far.

I would never put my horse through what I do to myself though. I really feel for you though having such a super horse and not being able to do as you planned.

 

[ihatework]

I gave Bute Tuesday, Wednesday late evening my vet asked for a video of her on the lunge trotting 2 circles either rein. In his opinion the Bute would have worn off by then. She had been out 24/7. At first she didn’t want to move, very backwards, ears back, stuffy, not tracking up on either rein. She didn’t look lame though.

I walked her around for a bit, then did the same again and held a lunge whip to encourage her forward. Definitely an improvement and she moved nicely on both reins, her right rein (right hock is the operated hock) was actually lifting and coming through really nicely. Tracking up evenly. The small area of filling in the hock she had, had gone by wednesday.

I’m wondering if she wasn’t’ lame on it, but in fact stiff all over after the event and myself only looking at that right hind instantly assumed it was her joint.

We’ve questioned a muscle condition before only because her muscle enzymes are always higher than they should be. She is on vitamin E, magnesium and a mug of pea protein a day due to this. (I did run out of pea protein on Sunday, so she hasn’t had any for 4 days, maybe a related factor not sure) She’s been forward and keen until now, but maybe it was all too much on the weekend. I then gave her 3 days off, which maybe didn’t help if it is muscle related.

Anyway, waiting for my vet to get back to me. Just wanted to blurt my thinking.

I wouldn’t expect a horse to be crabby that far after an event. Could be hock, could be muscles, could be combo, could be something else.

It’s really difficult to comment accurately on this because on a compromised horse there is a very fine line on how best to manage them. In my mind there is no doubt that for some horses, both physically and mentally, they are better off doing stuff - yet for other horses this is the wrong call.

What you need is a good vet, a good physio and a fairly balanced friend to bounce things off. The internet forum is not your friend here.

I am in no doubt that your horse, I’m afraid to say, doesn’t sound like they will stand up to long term eventing. But until you play around with management you might not know for sure. You might well be able to fine tune things short term, but longer term perhaps cutting your investment loss now (emotional & financial) might end up being better for you and the horse?

ETA: but what I would definitely want to know is what level of modified workload does keep her physically ok and mentally happy, so I'd invest a little time this summer in working that out, if you are considering finding her another person - this will optimise your chance of finding her the right longer term home.

 

[khalswitz]

The thing about vets is that many of them view horses as livestock and not pets. They treat horses who are working animals with a job to do, and as long as they are doing that job without evident distress then that's considered ok. Just think how many horses fail vettings. The majority of horses who fail the vet are doing the job already. Ie a vet declares them NOT FIT for the job they are currently doing. Ignoring bad vettings (which are definitely a thing!), this trigges some owners into changing their management. Others roll their eyes at the vet and carry on as normal. However none of those owners would have stopped riding before the vetting. Because - dodgy dealers aside - no-one agrees to a vetting they think will fail, or puts a horse that not fit for the work it is being advertised for up for sale.

I have often been struck by the mismatch between vet advice in a buying/selling situation and vet advice on a horse you want to keep riding. When I talk to vets I deliberately try and balance it up - I ask vetting vets to be pragmatic, not picky, and I ask treating vets 'would you pass the horse as fit for the work - even if only after treatment'.

I am not saying one approach is better than the other - I just like to be aware of the different 'bars' vets set for different questions in different contexts to help me weigh up options.

This is a great point. When I bought my 16 year old mare, she failed her vetting. But I had a long chat with the vet after. She’d failed on a heart murmur, uneven muscling over hips, and flexions on hinds - but I wanted her for happy hacking, which she was currently doing, and he suggested that at her age, low level continued movement as she most likely develops arthritis at some point is probably the best thing for her. He suggested that whilst he would have to fail her, he reckoned that she could end up suiting me well. I bought her.

For low level, non-competitive work and age-related complaints (not injuries) I reckon the same is good for horses as it is for me - keeping moving and active. What you can’t expect is them to be athletes.

I used to play a lot of sport, football and running and swimming as well as a lot of long days riding and aside from a few specific days when there was an incident like a fall or a bad tackle, I never needed painkillers or rest afterwards.

I now have a buggered ankle and it swells and aches after exercise, and to be honest it makes me grumpy and apprehensive about running even though I know it’s good for me and I know a lot of strategies to deal with it. There’s no way I’d inflict that on an animal who doesn’t understand it.

It sounds like you need to decide if you want to compete this horse or have a happy, healthy horse. The two sound rather contradictory.

Completely agree. I never hurt when I was trialling with the national side in sport as a teenager, or playing 4 sports a week at uni plus riding horses. And if I did hurt, I’d have taken time off because my physios and coaches would have been concerned I cause an injury.

Nowadays I exercise despite hurting, because I know it’s the best thing for me. But how do we definitely know it’s the best thing for the horse? Not many conditions causing lameness in a young horse are improved by exercise.

 

[Cortez]

For low level, non-competitive work and age-related complaints (not injuries) I reckon the same is good for horses as it is for me - keeping moving and active. What you can’t expect is them to be athletes.

This is a very wise observation.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Just to provide some way of a update.

My vet came out, no lameness was seen on the lunge or after flexion of both hocks. He advised me to carry on and see how she goes, if no improvement we would investigate. I didn't book any ODEs but decided to just hack for a month or so. She was doing well, fit and happy. I booked a funride and wanted to see how she was. She was super at the funride, rather excited at times and no lameness after. We have done a couple of more funrides since and not done much in the arena apart from groundwork. I started taking her in the arena for 5 minutes after a hack, no issues.

I have noticed she is holding her head to the left when ridden mostly in the arena, but also noticed this on the lunge. She also has started to 'snake' her head into canter transition on the lunge and snake her head ridden when transitioning into trot, most people would assume it was excitement. She is finding right canter lead difficult in the arena (but is happy to canter right lead when hacking) so assuming its bending her neck to the right/bending in general/working into a contact she is struggling with. My previous horse had ECVM so it was on my mind. I've noticed if she has been doing a lot, she gets 'girthy' to touch between her front legs/girth area (scoped clear for ulcers this year) which could pin point to lower neck pain as well.

Took some videos for my vet. He agreed neck imaging is needed (movement wise no lameness seen) and that is being done tomorrow. Maybe it is the missing piece of the puzzle. I've had everything x-rayed on her apart from her neck so far, she also has Northern Dancer in her lines which I understand is linked to ECVM but a big TB line so he is in a lot of horses. If that comes back negative, I'm really not sure where else we can go apart from turning her away for a long period.

 

[Orangina]

Just to provide some way of a update.

My vet came out, no lameness was seen on the lunge or after flexion of both hocks. He advised me to carry on and see how she goes, if no improvement we would investigate. I didn't book any ODEs but decided to just hack for a month or so. She was doing well, fit and happy. I booked a funride and wanted to see how she was. She was super at the funride, rather excited at times and no lameness after. We have done a couple of more funrides since and not done much in the arena apart from groundwork. I started taking her in the arena for 5 minutes after a hack, no issues.

I have noticed she is holding her head to the left when ridden mostly in the arena, but also noticed this on the lunge. She also has started to 'snake' her head into canter transition on the lunge and snake her head ridden when transitioning into trot, most people would assume it was excitement. She is finding right canter lead difficult in the arena (but is happy to canter right lead when hacking) so assuming its bending her neck to the right/bending in general/working into a contact she is struggling with. My previous horse had ECVM so it was on my mind. I've noticed if she has been doing a lot, she gets 'girthy' to touch between her front legs/girth area (scoped clear for ulcers this year) which could pin point to lower neck pain as well.

Took some videos for my vet. He agreed neck imaging is needed (movement wise no lameness seen) and that is being done tomorrow. Maybe it is the missing piece of the puzzle. I've had everything x-rayed on her apart from her neck so far, she also has Northern Dancer in her lines which I understand is linked to ECVM but a big TB line so he is in a lot of horses. If that comes back negative, I'm really not sure where else we can go apart from turning her away for a long period.

Sorry to hear you are still having issues but the next being bent to one side may just be from compensation from her hock. I have one that had hock arthritis and the first sign before any lameness showed was him holding his neck squint trying to compensate I guess using his better hock more. However saying that I have still retired him to the field with devil's claw (for him it works better than bute for some reason)

 

[Orangina]

To add, is it her left hock that was operated on? That would tie in with right canter lead being difficult

 

[IrishMilo]

Thanks for the update, I'd be really interested to hear the outcome of the next x-rays.

 

[tda]

To answer the question wwyd... If she was mine I would turn away for a time (9-12 months probably) and hope that her being young would mean that nature stood a fair chance of healing whatever is left to be healed. Particularly if she's fairly active in the field so the joint will be getting used. And then I would bring back into work with an open mind and see how she goes.

Her body is telling you that there is some element of what you are doing with her now that it can't cope with. The educated guess is that it's the hard ground, but it might not be, so with all reasonable diagnostics and medical treatments exhausted I would personally take the conservative approach at this point and turn away.

Pretty much agree with this

 

[Birker2020]

I've had everything x-rayed on her apart from her neck so far, she also has Northern Dancer in her lines which I understand is linked to ECVM but a big TB line so he is in a lot of horses. If that comes back negative, I'm really not sure where else we can go apart from turning her away for a long period.

All You Need to Know About the Hidden C6-C7 Malformation That's Bringing Horses Down

What if you learned that your TB or TB-derived breed horse had an inherited skeletal problem that could directly lead to arthritis, instability, stumbles and falls?

thehorsesback.com

yes I remember this from the Sharon May Davis papers. Bailey had the malformation C7 transposed process but only mildly and was seen by Dickie Hepburn.

 

[ihatework]

Well it makes sense to X-ray the neck (and back if you haven’t already) to rule it in/out.
I might also be inclined to have the dodgy hock nerve blocked and then ride her and see if the schooling symptoms change

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Well it makes sense to X-ray the neck (and back if you haven’t already) to rule it in/out.
I might also be inclined to have the dodgy hock nerve blocked and then ride her and see if the schooling symptoms change

Back has been xrayed previously, but yes I agree with nerve blocking hock. Going to ask for that.

To add, is it her left hock that was operated on? That would tie in with right canter lead being difficult

Right hock, the way she’s moving behind it doesn’t look like the hock but want to nerve block to clarify.

 

[Orangina]

Back has been xrayed previously, but yes I agree with nerve blocking hock. Going to ask for that.


Right hock, the way she’s moving behind it doesn’t look like the hock but want to nerve block to clarify.

Hope you get some answers! So hard when you feel like you are chasing round their body looking for what is bothering them

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I’m sure I have a bad luck curse on me!

My vet was suppose to come out a week ago but his car broke down, re booked to today. Yesterday his mother had a bad fall and has ended up in hospital (passed on my get well wishes) we have moved todays visit until next week.

I get really internally stressed about waiting for things like X-rays and the not knowing. It’s definitely easier said than done to ‘not worry’

 

[Michen]

I’m sure I have a bad luck curse on me!

My vet was suppose to come out a week ago but his car broke down, re booked to today. Yesterday his mother had a bad fall and has ended up in hospital (passed on my get well wishes) we have moved todays visit until next week.

I get really internally stressed about waiting for things like X-rays and the not knowing. It’s definitely easier said than done to ‘not worry’

Oh no I’m sorry! I absolutely hate it when that happens. Obviously unavoidable but like you I just want to know and always get a bit sick feeling before a visit.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

We have x-ray images! Degenerative changes in one joint C3-4, rest of the neck looks ok. Vet thinks it is congenital. Plan is to medicate both sides using ultrasound and monitor how she goes.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Just wanted to update this post, find it helpful to go back through myself even if its no interest to others.

We medicated her neck in June, although changes were seen on the x-ray (C3-4) we weren't actually sure if they were significant. She has always stretched extremely well with carrot stretches and the osteopath had no concerns. I gradually bought her back into work and if I'm completely honest, the steroids have not made much of a difference. She still holds her head to the outside while lunging in a headcollar (worse on the right rein) so maybe this is more distraction and she still isn't happy to go forward on a surface, but this is more so on the right rein. On the left rein - different horse. I have lunge videos of her yesterday in a head collar.. left rein she is using her core, head down, pushing through, no encouragement needed. Right rein, instantly doesn't want to go forward, looks stiff through her body, constantly needs encouragement but doesn't look lame. Her movement looks really good, maybe not bringing her right hind through as much is all I can notice. She is the same ridden, as soon as you turn onto the right rein its like a switch.

We scoped last September due to extreme girthiness but only saw 1 tiny tiny ulcer on the scope. We tried treatment for 2 weeks and decided it wasn't worth continuing, we did question hind gut because she was on box rest for 3 months Feb-May last year and had a stressful yard move situation.

I spoke to my vet yesterday, I kind of said has it got to the stage we're out of options.. is she is better retired or as a happy hack because I just want the best for her. I've sent him videos and he is going to come back to me, he is a bit baffled by her. I did mention I have a open ulcer claim and is it worth a thorough treatment for ulcers.

What is making me question hind gut ulcers.. I've read up on it and a lot of horses don't like bending/working right with ulcers which improves/goes away after treatment, mainly because the hindgut is on the right side I believe. She has been grumpy in general, hates all other horses and very upset around the girth area still (mostly if touched by hand, will bite, show extreme reaction) this has worsened and worsens with work. Yet she still whinnies at me while I arrive, loves being groomed and attention. The physio can't find any tight muscles and she has just had the all clear from a great osteopath - she never use to be like this. She occasionally has runny poo and is reactive to sugary grass (poo turns to liquid) So she is muzzled (flexible filly) in a big paddock at night and in during the day with hay.

The other question is muscle myopathy, but that wouldn't explain not wanting to go on the right rein? Muscles feel loose. The right hind hock having surgery last year could be the issue, it was last medicated with Arthramid 5 months ago and re x-rayed (nothing seen on x-ray) but shes moving very well through it - my vet really doesn't think its her hock. She is extremely sensitive, to the point if a fly lands on her face mid hack she will have a total fit.

The other possible point is that we never find the problem.. but I want to know I've given it my all.

Will wait and hear back from my vet. If only horses could talk!!

 

[ihatework]

Whilst she may well have stress ulcers I’m afraid that any horse showing such a significant difference in way of going between left and right rein has an underlying more orthopedic/muscular issue. In all honesty without a firm diagnosis on what is causing this and knowing if it can be adequately managed, I’m not convinced even happy hacking is the right call. It’s difficult to comment without knowing the horse and I am someone that will support working a compromised horse (circumstances dependant), but from what you are saying my gut says cut your losses here.

 

[Tiddlypom]

She could have hind gut issues, but I would be questioning whether even keeping her on as a pasture ornament is ethical as she is evidently so unhappy.

You can get the Equibiome test run to test her hind gut biome. Results take about 10 weeks, though. In the interim, is she on oily herbs? That is very beneficial to general hind gut health.

 

[webble]

Whilst she may well have stress ulcers I’m afraid that any horse showing such a significant difference in way of going between left and right rein has an underlying more orthopedic/muscular issue. In all honesty without a firm diagnosis on what is causing this and knowing if it can be adequately managed, I’m not convinced even happy hacking is the right call. It’s difficult to comment without knowing the horse and I am someone that will support working a compromised horse (circumstances dependant), but from what you are saying my gut says cut your losses here.

agree with this sorry its a rubbish situation

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I would be questioning whether even keeping her on as a pasture ornament is ethical as she is evidently so unhappy.

She is unhappy in terms of being touched at her girth area and rather other horses keep their distance (maybe that is mare related) apart from that her ears are always forward. She loves being fussed and groomed, always grooms me back, calls when she hears my car and wickers to me every time I go out of sight.

My young gelding was PTS due to severe neck deformity - I totally agree putting to sleep is better than suffering.

Thank you all for your thoughts It is rubbish!

 

[dorsetladette]

Late to the party here but I've just read the thread and didn't want to read and run.

I have a field ornament who has taught me a lot about horse behaviour etc etc. He isn't ridden as is to unpredictable when put under pressure (due I believe to past experiences), but with trust we are now out showing in hand and as long as he has familiar handlers around him he deals with the environment well - I'd even go as far as to say he enjoys it! We haven't found anything wrong with him with various vet checks etc - only a physio recently found what they described as scaring behind his wither on one side where the saddle would sit (not visible to the naked eye or running your hand over, more deep tissue). I'm not suggesting this has any relation to your horse but to give context to my comment.

Anyway recently he came home from a stay away show (a pretty big deal for him) with a 6hr drive either side of it. So a pretty stressful few days for him. He came home and had the afternoon in a field next to his mates to recover from the journey and then went out with his buddies in the evening. Obviously the previous few days had pushed him to the edge of his ability to cope as he was hyper sensitive to anything touching his skin. So with flies landing on him he became mega stressed and I honestly thought he was colicking at one point by his reactions. Looking back he was like this when he was at the professionals yard when we attempted to back him (stressful situation for him).

So what I'm trying to say is - I wonder if your horse is ultra stoic and is holding it all together despite being uncomfortable somewhere causing stress and the flies landing on their nose is just the straw that breaks the camels back? A bit like getting home from a stressful day at work and finding someone has used the last of the milk in the fridge so you can't have a nice coffee to relax and this little thing makes you cry.

Just a thought.

ETA - sorry if this seems completely irrelevant. Ben has me looking at horses from a totally different angle these days.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

So what I'm trying to say is - I wonder if your horse is ultra stoic and is holding it all together despite being uncomfortable somewhere causing stress and the flies landing on their nose is just the straw that breaks the camels back? A bit like getting home from a stressful day at work and finding someone has used the last of the milk in the fridge so you can't have a nice coffee to relax and this little thing makes you cry.

Interesting thoughts, thank you for sharing.

She does have mild sweet itch, so is rugged and has cream applied so she doesn't rub. This year its a lot better but if I forget to apply cream to her face she will really itch. I know a lot of sweet itch horses are very reactive to flies so I've always put it down to this. She is super chilled in general, loads by herself and travels fine, chilled in the field and stable.

We haven't tried a bute trial for a couple of weeks yet, guessing if it was ulcer related it would aggravate it.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I do have a video of her on the lunge yesterday, left and right rein if anyone is knowledgeable I could message it.

 

[Alibear]

Perhaps nerve block the right hock and see how she moves on the lunge then? The head tilted on the lunge sounds familiar, and that was caused by hock issues.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Perhaps nerve block the right hock and see how she moves on the lunge then? The head tilted on the lunge sounds familiar, and that was caused by hock issues.

Yes, worth a try. I know where the chip was removed from her right hock its difficult to get a needle in and usually she needs sedation (not sure how long a nerve block lasts) although she does look to the outside on both reins on the lunge but not constant. Its just something I've noticed.

 

[Alibear]

It would be a nerve block that doesn't go into where she had the chip; it goes into the nerve branch that supplies the hock and lower sections of the leg.

 

[J_sarahd]

So sorry you’re going through all this. As you know, I completely sympathise with how you’re feeling. Hope you get to the bottom of it

 

[Red-1]

I have only just read this thread from start to finish, I'm sorry you are having such a lot of worry.

Has the horse been for a thorough workup since the operation? Could it be a suspensory issue? They can lurk in a phantom way, and can cause enough pain to bring ulcers on. It could also cause the one sidedness.

I wouldn't treat the ulcers without also trying to find out what is causing them.

I'd book into a main horse hospital for a full workup with fresh eyes. Nerve block from bottom upwards in each leg. That may take 4 visits.

Either that, or turn way until next year, but then that would depend on her being happy in the field with the sweet itch and generally happy.