Youngster playing or more sinister?

[Blondiecopper]

If a horse goes to bite me, I slap it across the muzzle. It's never happened twice, nor are they headshy. Horses are not stupid - they know why they got a slap, and how to avoid it.

If my horses bit anyone handling them, I'd be so ashamed that I hadn't trained them sufficiently, I'd be buying the groom/handler an apology bottle of wine.

Grooms and yard staff are NOT chew toys for your rude and spoilt horses.

I wouldn't class her as a groom. She certainly doesn't have any qualifications and is purely someone who mucks out etc. Her incompetence and lack of knowledge shows by her behaviour. The YM uses her because she can't find anyone else to do the job. She's openly said to me that she'd let her go if someone better appeared.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Its not up to someone else to hit a horse that does not belong to them... They should speak to the owner. A horse that bites is not on, but there are other ways of stopping it rather than wacking it! Great way to make a horse head shy.

Just out of interest, if you were a yard staff employee leading a young horse out to his regular turnout field and he bit YOU, how would you react?

I’m not a yard employee but I’d accept a horse of mine being told off clearly and firmly if teeth made contact with a member of staff.

I’d think a sharp elbow / smack / sharp verbal telling off do. Needs to be instant and enough to make it clear teeth on human unacceptable.

 

[honetpot]

I wouldn't class her as a groom. She certainly doesn't have any qualifications and is purely someone who mucks out etc. Her incompetence and lack of knowledge shows by her behaviour. The YM uses her because she can't find anyone else to do the job. She's openly said to me that she'd let her go if someone better appeared.

Do you not think that the YO is at fault? It's her insurance that is at stake, and if her yard help is incompetent, and causes injury or problems and she is aware of the staffs failings she is at fault. Her moaning to someone else about her staffs' incompetence does not absolve her of liability, in fact it makes it worse. If the worker is frightened and unsure and ends up being injured due to lack of supervision, and she can prove it the YO insurance may not pay out and she may be personally liable.
The YO is responsible for the care of your horse, she is providing a service, and is legally responsible. I would want to see her employer's liability and public liability insurance.
https://www.keystonelaw.com/keynotes/is-public-and-employers-liability-insurance-compulsory

 

[Shilasdair]

I wouldn't class her as a groom. She certainly doesn't have any qualifications and is purely someone who mucks out etc. Her incompetence and lack of knowledge shows by her behaviour. The YM uses her because she can't find anyone else to do the job. She's openly said to me that she'd let her go if someone better appeared.

I'm shocked at your and your YO's disrespect for a minimum wage employee doing her best. If she isn't skilled, then she needs training. If the YO isn't capable (and many of them have limited experience/qualifications themselves) then she should employ someone to train the groom.
No matter how much you dislike the groom (and that's really what this is about) she doesn't deserve to be bitten, kicked or injured in any way dealing with your horse and other liveries.
Poor girl.

 

[Sandstone1]

Just out of interest, if you were a yard staff employee leading a young horse out to his regular turnout field and he bit YOU, how would you react?

I’m not a yard employee but I’d accept a horse of mine being told off clearly and firmly if teeth made contact with a member of staff.

I’d think a sharp elbow / smack / sharp verbal telling off do. Needs to be instant and enough to make it clear teeth on human unacceptable.

I would tell the owner and possibly a elbow in to neck and a sharp word. Hitting a horse round the head is not on. Certainly not one thats not yours.

 

[Blondiecopper]

I'm shocked at your and your YO's disrespect for a minimum wage employee doing her best. If she isn't skilled, then she needs training. If the YO isn't capable (and many of them have limited experience/qualifications themselves) then she should employ someone to train the groom.
No matter how much you dislike the groom (and that's really what this is about) she doesn't deserve to be bitten, kicked or injured in any way dealing with your horse and other liveries.
Poor girl.

Hang on one minute...
I've NEVER said that I dislike her nor have I said that she is on minimum wage. I have also never said that the she deserves to be kicked, bitten or injured so you really should correct yourself.
what I have said are facts ie I saw her display an inexcusable behaviour towards an animal. You might think it's perfectly normal to smack a horse around the head with a rope (and that is what I'm discussing here) but frankly i DO NOT. Let's hope that no one behaves like that towards your pride and joy. Poor horse..!

 

[lilly1]

He may be becoming more reactive as he is on individual turnout. A young horse really needs company. I speak from experience as mine was becoming a bit nippy and spooky. He was not on his own but just had my 16yo mare for company. He has never been smacked or pulled around. Think it was nervous energy. He is now out with a large herd and has settled right down. Sadly the trend these days is individual turnout in small paddocks. Suits the horse owner and yard owner but not all horses. I've had to send mine 40 miles away. Mine is not backed yet though so not so much an issue.

 

[Mrs B]

- a small tap on bonier part of the nose and a stern voice is enough to say 'I don't like that behaviour' in a way they understand.

The horse in my avatar is probably my horse of a lifetime. He bit me in my first year of owning him, when I simply put a hand on the top of his stable door when looking over to check he had enough hay. No warning, just snaked his head in one, lightning fast move and did this (through gloves):

Apologies to all who have seen this before, but I think it's important that people realise just how much damage those teeth can do. He has, 3 times over nearly a decade of owning him, tried to bite in a similar fashion, usually when frustrated that something isn't happening as fast as he would like it to.

I fly at him, full-on banshee shriek the absolute second it happens. The reaction on his behalf is 'Oh sh!t!. Shouldn't have done that ... ' and he shoots back and stands away from me until I eventually walk over, and carry on exactly as normal. He is then as polite as anything for a good, long while. Not head-shy, not fearful, not shut down ... just made aware that a boundary has been well and truly crossed.

I am pretty sure a small tap and a stern voice wouldn't get through to him and keep me safe on those occasions.

 

[Gloi]

He may be becoming more reactive as he is on individual turnout. A young horse really needs company. I speak from experience as mine was becoming a bit nippy and spooky. He was not on his own but just had my 16yo mare for company. He has never been smacked or pulled around. Think it was nervous energy. He is now out with a large herd and has settled right down. Sadly the trend these days is individual turnout in small paddocks. Suits the horse owner and yard owner but not all horses. I've had to send mine 40 miles away. Mine is not backed yet though so not so much an issue.

I agree. Young horses need other horses to use their energy on and to play their bitey face games with. It's absolutely no life for a youngster to be on individual turnout.

 

[ponynutz]

The horse in my avatar is probably my horse of a lifetime. He bit me in my first year of owning him, when I simply put a hand on the top of his stable door when looking over to check he had enough hay. No warning, just snaked his head in one, lightning fast move and did this (through gloves):

Apologies to all who have seen this before, but I think it's important that people realise just how much damage those teeth can do. He has, 3 times over nearly a decade of owning him, tried to bite in a similar fashion, usually when frustrated that something isn't happening as fast as he would like it to.

I fly at him, full-on banshee shriek the absolute second it happens. The reaction on his behalf is 'Oh sh!t!. Shouldn't have done that ... ' and he shoots back and stands away from me until I eventually walk over, and carry on exactly as normal. He is then as polite as anything for a good, long while. Not head-shy, not fearful, not shut down ... just made aware that a boundary has been well and truly crossed.

I am pretty sure a small tap and a stern voice wouldn't get through to him and keep me safe on those occasions.


View attachment 92405

Thanks for sharing - that's a truly nasty injury. Agree it can get very dangerous. Think my reply downplayed what I meant though - I had a similar reaction to how you deal with it when my mare does the same, making myself as big and scary as possible and giving her a nip back where it'll hurt her most (on the boniest part of her nose).

Think the problem here is that these are our horses... and we can decide how we deal with them. I think had this been a one off and OP's youngster stopped being headshy fairly quickly it would be okay - safety is always more important (agree with you). But from what OP has posted in updates unfortunately it doesn't sound like a one-off... and doesn't sound like it's only happening in a dangerous situation either.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Have I missed something? Has it been confirmed that the member of staff who slapped the pony for pulling to grass been confirmed as having handled your pony badly ,OP? Forgive me if I have missed something.

 

[Blondiecopper]

Have I missed something? Has it been confirmed that the member of staff who slapped the pony for pulling to grass been confirmed as having handled your pony badly ,OP? Forgive me if I have missed something.

I haven't seen her hit my horse (thankfully) however his reaction at the time (last year) was that he had been clouted. She does handle my horse on a daily basis as he is on the yard that she looks after.

 

[Goldenstar]

You need to be talking to the YOer about this .
It’s not a great idea to be accusing someone like that on here the horse world is small .

 

[honetpot]

Hang on one minute...
I've NEVER said that I dislike her nor have I said that she is on minimum wage. I have also never said that the she deserves to be kicked, bitten or injured so you really should correct yourself.
what I have said are facts ie I saw her display an inexcusable behaviour towards an animal. You might think it's perfectly normal to smack a horse around the head with a rope (and that is what I'm discussing here) but frankly i DO NOT. Let's hope that no one behaves like that towards your pride and joy. Poor horse..!

The YO is responsible for the care of your horse, she is providing a service, and is legally responsible.

What do you want the YO to do, and if she is not doing anything, it's time to move on.

 

[Blondiecopper]

You need to be talking to the YOer about this .
It’s not a great idea to be accusing someone like that on here the horse world is small .

As per previous posts I will be. It's not an accusation. I saw her hit another liveries horse with my own eyes.

 

[Dave's Mam]

How is your own pony? Has he settled back down?

 

[Blondiecopper]

How is your own pony? Has he settled back down?

Yes he has but I have handled him much more since the winter. He is a very forgiving type so hopefully whatever happened hasn't left too much of a mark on him.

 

[GSD Woman]

I don't think it's very fair to single out one group that hasn't even been mentioned in this discussion.

Also (addressed to whole thread), agree a horse shouldn't go unreprimanded if it's becoming a danger but there are other ways to deal with it in the immediate and then after the event can have a chat with owner to see how they'd like behaviour to be corrected.

Sorry, I thought it was mentioned that woman leading the horse out to grass was young and not paying attention.

 

[tristar]

^^^^ To me it is quite obvious that someone at the yard has been feeding your horse titbits and he's then nipped someone, who has then given him a belting for it.

The reaction you have described is absolutely classic for this. Your horse is "telling" you something loud and clear. It is unmistakeable!

Youngsters learn incredibly quickly: I fed mine titbits just twice in succession (two separate occasions) from my hand - the third time when I didn't have a treat she went as if to nip me. However I didn't knock the poo out of her to "punish" her for it!! There are other ways of nipping a problem in the bud. I don't feed titbits now, end of. Much easier! If you don't feed from the hand they don't come looking for it, but yours has obviously learnt this!

Sorry but I'd be moving PDQ. It isn't worth ruining a youngster, end of. The situation isn't going to get any better whilst your horse is on this yard and if/when people are feeding him and then punishing him. Perhaps kids on the yard are feeding him or something? This is what I'd be suspecting. All he is going to learn is firstly a bad habit and secondly a bad response to negative behaviour that he has been taught.

this is the most likely thing that has happened, titbits, hand feeding

if he seemed normally socialized then suddenly starts to bite

i would be on red alert around him, when leading take a good hold on the lead rein near the headcollar, so he can`t grab you

most importantly ask and ask until you get to the bottom of this, what has provoked this new habit

my experience of hand feeding provoked biting is that it will stop itself if you limit the opportunity to repeat the biting, ie do not let it become a habit

 

[tristar]

On this occasion the handler hit the horse in the face for pulling for the grass. Not biting anyone. My horse hasn't used his teeth on anyone. He's mouthed me or had in the past but he is 3 years old. It's more for attention and he's stopped it now anyway. The issue here is the handler, most of the time she's got her head in her mobile phone leading horses so doesn't pay any attention or cannot pre empt any behaviour. It always catches her out because she's not concentrating. I do agree that if a horse threatens you or goes to bite you can stop this with a sharp reminder but losing your head because the horse has pulled for grass in my opinion is not the way to behave.

every day i tell myself , brain in gear, when starting to work with the horses, before i do anything with them

when someone is handling your youngster they should be concentrating on what they are doing, because every handling session with a young horse is training session

sorry for your loss x

 

[Blondiecopper]

every day i tell myself , brain in gear, when starting to work with the horses, before i do anything with them

when someone is handling your youngster they should be concentrating on what they are doing, because every handling session with a young horse is training session

sorry for your loss x

Thank you. I agree. We live in a world where people can't get their heads out of their phones regardless of what they appear to be doing. Most situations can be avoided if you've got your wits about you.

 

[tristar]

Not looking for sympathy or compliments or anything...just want to moan so I'm not holding it all in.

I am not enjoying these terrible two's at all.
I actually dread the thought of leaving the house or even getting up in the morning.
Every. Single. Thing. Is a huge battle.

I can't get them dressed without a fight. I allow them to choose their top and socks so they feel involved but they run off, kick and scream. It genuinely takes me around an hour just to take off their pj's and dress them.

Nappy time is the same, I get them to take a nappy and the wipes and cream out the cupboard so they're involved. But I have to grab them and sometimes pin their legs down just to quickly change them. Allowing them to clean themselves makes no difference neither does changing them standing up. I get kicked and hit.

Meal times. Nap time. A battle.

Taking them out, they won't stay in the wagon, or they run off, or they refuse to walk with me, and Jacob's new thing is throwing himself on the floor constantly.

Jacob also has a really bad issue with headbutting, if he doesn't get his way or you say no or ask him to wait a second or anything...he flings himself backwards and slams into the floor, or throws himself down and headbutts the floor. His head is a mess of bruises. Sometimes I'm lucky and catch him and he throws himself.

I honestly feel like I've lost all control and have gone wrong somewhere.

I know people don't share the bad aspects of life and only post about the rosy stuff, but I never see or hear anybody else's children behaving this way.

Obviously I'll just keep on going and trying.
Still no closer to finding a nursery, all the ofsted reports are bad that I've read so far, but I'm slowly going through the list.

I almost feel like asking their dad to stay here a night and checking myself into a hotel for a night.

Thank you. I agree. We live in a world where people can't get their heads out of their phones regardless of what they appear to be doing. Most situations can be avoided if you've got your wits about you.

i was talking to someone and turned round and got my toe trodden on 3 weeks ago, lesson learned!

 

[HorseyTee]

@tristar I think you've quoted me by mistake.

 

[Blondiecopper]

As with all physical restraint or repriman d

i was talking to someone and turned round and got my toe trodden on 3 weeks ago, lesson learned!

?

 

[tristar]

sorry H T the batt was going on this thing and could not correct in time

 

[hock]

Oh interesting. My youngsters don’t bite as a rule or kick people, they run riot over each other though so I’m careful who goes with who. I am absolutely top dog of the herd and I suspect if they did forget themselves and nip me they would react in the same oh shit I’ve just bit the boss kind of way. My old horse by accident brushed me once with a kind leg (I can’t remember why) and the look of shock on his face was a picture and he immediately legged it away from me. He then turned to face me and asked to come back, he was 2 at the time and was clearly worried about it. This doesn’t someone hasn’t battered him for biting and if they have they’ve done a bad job of it. I would thump a horse that bit me providing I could do it immediately and then I would make them leave my personal space. It’s the timing isn’t it? I absolutely adore all of mine but they do need to have a pecking order for safety and their peace of mind.
Having said all of that he is acting out of character and he is a baby horse getting used to ridden life and routine I’d have a think about how he’s coping etc. Is he tired ? Is he in a new routine? A new social situation and no he mustn’t hurt you but is he struggling a little bit and needs a bit of slack?

 

[conniegirl]

Hang on one minute...
I've NEVER said that I dislike her nor have I said that she is on minimum wage. I have also never said that the she deserves to be kicked, bitten or injured so you really should correct yourself.
what I have said are facts ie I saw her display an inexcusable behaviour towards an animal. You might think it's perfectly normal to smack a horse around the head with a rope (and that is what I'm discussing here) but frankly i DO NOT. Let's hope that no one behaves like that towards your pride and joy. Poor horse..!

You don’t have to explicitly state it, your posts show loud and clear what you think of this poor young girl.

i too would have slapped the muzzle of a horse that bit or nipped me. They only ever do it once and I’ve never had one go headshy on me.

i pity any poor groom who works for you or with your horses, Not allowed to reprimand a horse when the horse is acting dangerously.

perhaps young horse ownership is not for you if you are going to put facilities and convenience over what is better for him in terms of grazing and a herd.

 

[Winters100]

The update relates to a member of staff hitting a horse across the face with its lead rope for pulling at the grass. I don't care what you might do for training a horse not to bite but that behaviour is unacceptable and abusive.

I believe that most people are responding to OP's original post "when I led him to the field he 'nipped' my arm"

 

[Blondiecopper]

You don’t have to explicitly state it, your posts show loud and clear what you think of this poor young girl.

i too would have slapped the muzzle of a horse that bit or nipped me. They only ever do it once and I’ve never had one go headshy on me.

i pity any poor groom who works for you or with your horses, Not allowed to reprimand a horse when the horse is acting dangerously.

perhaps young horse ownership is not for you if you are going to put facilities and convenience over what is better for him in terms of grazing and a herd.

 

[Blondiecopper]

You don’t have to explicitly state it, your posts show loud and clear what you think of this poor young girl.

i too would have slapped the muzzle of a horse that bit or nipped me. They only ever do it once and I’ve never had one go headshy on me.

i pity any poor groom who works for you or with your horses, Not allowed to reprimand a horse when the horse is acting dangerously.

perhaps young horse ownership is not for you if you are going to put facilities and convenience over what is better for him in terms of grazing and a herd.

I've cared for horses for over 35 years and have given every single one of my horses everything that they have ever needed. For your information he is moving yards at the end of the month if you care to read the thread.
you will also see (if you care to read) that my youngster hasn't displayed this behaviour since as I've ignored it. For him, it's done the trick. My issue here (and for fear of repeating myself) was the 'groom' smacking a liveries horse around the head with its rope, for pulling to the grass. Again, I reiterate, that is NOT acceptable behaviour and is completely disproportionate to what the animal did.
if you think that's acceptable perhaps horse ownership isn't for you, no matter what age they may be...