Your thoughts on the HOYS hunter class dispute?

armchair_rider said:
I don't think it's a bad thing to raise - there are certainly parallels in the two situations. I'm just wary of overdoing the comparison
Click to expand...

Its a very valid comparison to make in legal terms though. There is a lot of case law on how not wearing a seatbelt constitutes contributory negligence and means a percentage reduction in damages claims. I'm not aware of any similar case law on not wearing a riding hat. If anyone can find any, then post it please. I do think its something that HOYS should have researched, ie they should have researched the correct legal position, before making this ruling, and issuing vague statements which appear to indicate a legal statutory change is forthcoming.

I do question whether it will increase their duty of care to a very high standard too and in cases where wearing helmets are not involved. Since the likliehood of being injured from a kick injury is probably just as high if not higher, should everyone near a horse at HOYS not be required to also wear a helmet? What about body protectors?

The trouble with this sort of piecemeal, nit picking, risk averse approach is that great swathes tend to be missed out.
 
It's ok if you want to smash your head in when you fall off if you're not wearing a hat.

Just don't expect your friends or family to ever forgive you, or tax payers to be happy to be funding your coma.
 
I totally understand that people have the choice whether to wear a hat or not (or one with a harness), but why would you NOT want to? Accidents can happen even with the safest of horses. In 2010 Olympic dressage rider Courtney King was training one of her horses without wearing a hat (a lot of top dressage riders don't - including our top british riders), the horse tripped, she fell onto her head and suffered traumatic brain injury and was in a coma for a month. I'm sure she now regrets the day she ever sat on a horse without one. I would chose safety over LOOK every time, and think every governing body should do the same. People will complain at first but will get over it.
 
hnmisty said:
It's ok if you want to smash your head in when you fall off if you're not wearing a hat.

Just don't expect your friends or family to ever forgive you, or tax payers to be happy to be funding your coma.
Click to expand...

You know I am expected as a tax payer to be happy funding the education of other peoples children .
I pay for the lifestyle choices of those who have large families and don't go to work receiving benefits paid in part by responsible people earning less than they are receiving in benefits i pay for gastric bands for the fat ,leg amputations for smokers etc etc etc so I perfectly relaxed in saying I am happy to for those who are unfortunate enough to be left in a coma to be funded by my taxes too.
 
I think HOYS are giving an appaling message by not letting SHB (GB) run the class due their hat rules. And good on SHB(GB) for not caving in!

HOYS let the showjumping carry on when BSJA changed their rules and there was even more controvicy over that at the time... Oh yes, that's because there wasn't another show jumping society waiting in the wings and they would lose a fortune and probably have to cancel the whole thing if they didn't run it!

I do not show, but I hope that SHB(GB) members (and any other competitors who disagree with HOYS decision) support their society and not enter the show. Lack of entries (money) will soon make HOYS change their mind!
 
There is no way that people will stop trying to qualify for HOYS - it wouldn't matter if a Satanist group were the governing body !

I think the key is that the powers that be who run HOYS are, well, lets just say be of a type likely to value tradition above all else. There are many shows (including Bath & West / Great Yorkshire) where 'proper' hats are mandatory & no professional has boycotted or withdrawn in protest since those rules were changed.

As I said in an earlier post if there should be an accident at the show where someone sustains a head injury in a fall where their hat doesn't remain on their head then HOYS will have dug themselves in to a PR nightmare.

Fixed peaks could indeed to injury but that's a bit like saying CPR can break ribs - probably was the lesser of two evils. Peaks on modern hats are no longer fixed in that sense, & will collapse on impact so that problem is no longer an issue.

Yes, as tax payers we all pay for things in society that perhaps given a choice we wouldn't, & the NHS caters for all manner of 'self inflicted' conditions. However what NONE of us should ever contemplate doing is ruining the lives of our nearest & dearest, those who care about us, & who could become our carers simply in a selfish belief conveniently labelled as freedom of choice.
 
Last edited:
Goldenstar said:
You know I am expected as a tax payer to be happy funding the education of other peoples children .
I pay for the lifestyle choices of those who have large families and don't go to work receiving benefits paid in part by responsible people earning less than they are receiving in benefits i pay for gastric bands for the fat ,leg amputations for smokers etc etc etc so I perfectly relaxed in saying I am happy to for those who are unfortunate enough to be left in a coma to be funded by my taxes too.
Click to expand...

Well, there are enough people who moan about their tax going to pay for all that too!
 
Tiddlypom said:
Interesting, but it seems as though your safety hat doesn't fit you! No properly fitted hat should tip like that. You might need to try several different makes and styles before you find one that fits correctly. Every individual is different. I 'have' to have a Gatehouse hat due to the shape of my head, which is luckily not a trial for me as there is a stockist nearby, and I like Gatehouse hats.

ETA just realise that your new Patey is a safety hat, albeit the lowest of the current standards.
Click to expand...

This was fitted by charles owen my head measure a 7 1/4 to get one to fit on my head I require a 7 3/4 padded out which after a few months had beaded down.. Ive been through most hats trying to find ones that fit, Im annoyed I cant xc or hunter trial as I cant get a skull cap to fit properly

The New patey safety hat meets the same crieria as the CO Fiona, Gatehouse Hickstead and Harry Hall Legend hats... Just it fits without any pressure on my head =)
 
EN1384 might be considered the 'lowest' standard, but that should be taken in context with how high the standard is in comparison with the old 6643 / 4472 hats, and the very high level of protection these hats do offer.
 
Zebedee said:
EN1384 might be considered the 'lowest' standard, but that should be taken in context with how high the standard is in comparison with the old 6643 / 4472 hats, and the very high level of protection these hats do offer.
Click to expand...
A properly fitted EN1384 hat is indeed very much better than hats made to the old superseded standards 6643/4472, and light years better than a beagler, top hat or bowler :D!

There are considerably more robust hats available, though. I believe that the Snell E2001 is the current gold standard.
 
They should have supported the decision . I rode western for years and have been daft enough to ride without a hat in the past- but never again.
 
Zebedee said:
There is no way that people will stop trying to qualify for HOYS - it wouldn't matter if a Satanist group were the governing body !

I think the key is that the powers that be who run HOYS are, well, lets just say be of a type likely to value tradition above all else. There are many shows (including Bath & West / Great Yorkshire) where 'proper' hats are mandatory & no professional has boycotted or withdrawn in protest since those rules were changed.

As I said in an earlier post if there should be an accident at the show where someone sustains a head injury in a fall where their hat doesn't remain on their head then HOYS will have dug themselves in to a PR nightmare.....

.....as tax payers we all pay for things in society that perhaps given a choice we wouldn't, & the NHS caters for all manner of 'self inflicted' conditions. However what NONE of us should ever contemplate doing is ruining the lives of our nearest & dearest, those who care about us, & who could become our carers simply in a selfish belief conveniently labelled as freedom of choice.
Click to expand...

Well said.

Unfortunately dressage riders look like Martians and eventers look like ninja turtles with all the gear on so what? This idea that traditions don't or can't change or evolve become new ones is bonkers.

Personally I think the entire outfit for showing and dressage should change in line with contemporary thinking and fashion. The crash helmet with the classic outfit looks ridiculous, even a leather jacket would be more appropriate.

Who goes clubbing in hat and tails anymore.

Point Two Air Jackets and crash helmets all round, the horses won't mind a bit.
 
Some interesting points of view on this from both sides.
No going to comment on hoys as I can see both sides of this but would like to answer a few points raised in general.
As a father of two (17 & 19) the only people responsible for educating my children are myself and their mother. I do not expect people to lives their lives having to set an example for them. If they are exposed to something we think is wrong then then we discuss it with them. Thats how they learn.
In that vain yes I would be happy for an addict to shoot heroin in front on my kids. Perfect opportunity to demonstrate what a mess it makes of poeples lives. Far more powerful than any TV campaign.

H&S do not state you have to elimnate every risk or take every possible precaution. Just that risk should be evaluated in terms of how likely it is to happen and the most probable outcome if it did.

I wish I could find the figures now but I remember looking at the stats for life changing accidents from riding. The most common was broken back, not head injury. If you watch people fall off a horse they will hit their back far more often then their head. So which precaution would H&S advise in that scenario.

My daughter has always worn a hat from the first time she sat on a horse. Occasionally both myself and my wife have ridden without hats but my daughter has understood that was not an option for her until she reached adulthood when she could make her own decisions about her safety and risk. Until then it was out job as parents to get her there.

In the last ten years I have probably fallen over far more times than I have fallen off a horse. So should I wear a hat for walking around more than riding? Possibly.

The trend for legislating the use of safety equipment is starting to have a negative impact on the general population. Recent studies have suggested that people no longer feel the need to consider the risk involved in an activity if its legal. If it was dangerous it would be illegal.

I think you also have to take in to account the life experience of a person to understand their view point. I grew up in the days when most cars didn't have seat belts, you could ride a motorbike without a helmet etc etc etc. Whilst it may seem illogical to some there tends to be a feeling amongst us oldies that we managed to live to be this old without the nanny state and really dont see the need compulsory wearing of anything. Personal choice based on experience is the prefered route.

As for cars. You can be sure I would rather be thrown out of a car made in the 60's but prefer to be held in to a modern one thats designed to crumple around me, not in to me.
 
Just a little nit pick re the being thrown clear of the car thing.

Whilst I fully agree that 1960s cars were a nightmare in terms of accident survivability, in practice being thrown clear of the car often has fatal results. Additionally, if you didn't belt up, and did not get thrown out of the car, you instead impacted on the very hard and non crumpling steering wheels and dash boards of the cars of that era, again often with tragic results.

The myth of it being safer to be thrown clear was not borne out by the results of post mortems and accident investigations. Wearing a seat belt has always been statistically safer than not wearing one, though in a minority of cases, it made injuries worse. Same as with wearing a safety hat.
 
HOYS should have supported them. Insane not to. How idiotic will HOYS look if someone does fall off and get a serious head injury from not wearing a proper hat? Absolutely ridiculous in this day and age that there is even a choice in the matter. ALL disiplines IMO should demand a proper hat is worn. I would never ride without and would never expect to, even when allowed to wear a top hat for FEI eventing dressage I was one of VERY few to choose my normal riding hat. Top hats and beaglers have no place on top of a horse, and we equestrianism will never be taken seriously until we actually start looking the part and not keep whining about wanting to wear stupid tweed jackets, thin hats with no straps and whatever other "traditional" attire people wore years ago.
 
I think equestrianism was taken far more seriously in the days before compulsory hats actually! The days when show jumping was on tv at prime viewing times and every show jumper was a household name.
I don't think there are any statistics to prove that riding is safer now than it was in say the 60s/70s when hats were rarely worn and even when they were they were as good as useless!
When I was a kid hat wearing (when not competing) was for wimps! Indeed anyone who has read John Francomes autobiography will recall when he turned up to ride exercise for Fred Winter wearing a helmet and was bawled out for being soft!!
I'm not saying we should go back to those days but Statistically i am far more at risk of a serious injury or death behind the wheel of my car than I am on a horse without a hat on.
Personally I do usually wear a hat when I ride now, however I have been known to go out hatless occasionally in Summer and have to say that nothing beats galloping flat out with the wind in your hair! It's a risk I'm prepared to take every once in a while. I also drive a car and have the odd drink or 5 (not at the same time) and eat butter rather than cholesterol lowering 'spread'.
Life is about balancing risk and pleasure and everyone will have their own parameters. There are plenty of high risk activities I wouldn't dream of participating in but if another individual gets pleasure from them, regardless of the risks then who am I to stop them?
Live and let live, or indeed, die.
Have posted fab old footage below of Hickstead - pre health and safety days as kind of relevant to the post but most of all a good watch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbYGInK8_Z0
 
undergroundoli said:
Watching this was great fun, thanks. Love the commentator. Never heard of the rider, should I have done?
Click to expand...

Douglas Bunn was the mastermind behind the All England Jumping course at Hickstead - the creator of the Derby :)
I particularly liked the handcrafted sidesaddle being worth 'up to £55', how times have changed ;)
 
Well, you learn something new everyday :blushes:

The sidesadle was great, wasn't it? Good to know the leather was tanned in this country. But seriously, a top of the range saddle for 55 quid and a basic show outfit for £30?
 
Another case of vanity/fashion/tradition over safety?

Maybe if we dropped the term "hat" - defined as "a shaped covering for the head worn for warmth, as a fashion item, or as part of a uniform" and instead used the term "helmet" - defined as "a hard or padded protective hat, various types of which are worn by soldiers, police officers, motorcyclists, sports players, and others" perceptions might be different by those taking such decisions.
 
We are now in a ridiculous situation whereby it is the intention of Grandstand Media, that run HOYS, to allocate all qualifying Ridden Hunter classes to the Show Horse Association, who do not run or have a panel of hunter judges. The association does not operate as a breed society nor promote the breeding of their own; hacks, riding horses and cobs, which SHB do. SHB have always operated as a promoter of breeding first and foremost, the latter to have a judges panel and run shows. SHB have always supported Hunters at every opportunity and include mare gradings, stallion gradings, affiliated shows and the qualifiers for both the Royal International and HOYS. So what is to become of hunters? Have the people,who supposedly support the society, finally decided to stand up and kill off their very provider of their work or hobby, breeding, passport issuers, shows, gradings and the longest serving society because the society want to protect their competitors by asking them to wear a safety helmet?? Shame on those too stupid to see what the long term effects will be. A Society with a brain trying to protect the brainless!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top