Eventing 3 horse deaths at Blenheim HT, have courses become too technical? Are horses not prepared enough?

[tristar]

i always got the impression that eventers are slightly mad, in the way they ride, sorry eventers

in the old days most event horses seemed to be well TB or close, quite a lot by H I S stallions, who were of course judged by the old school horsemen, well versed in the type of conformation and general style of horse that could keep upright in the hunting field, and with a different mind to many modern horses

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Let's not forget Cola, who people on here pointed out was clearly lame, was passed to sj at Burghley and had a poor round. Not a great look

Are younger horses doing higher levels earlier? I'm a mere spectator but there were some young horses at the world's e.g. that gorgeous french horse, I know it's only 4 star did they used to be doing such levels so young? Another youngster was Ros' LG, would he have been there at that age in the past?

 

[spacefaer]

Let's not forget Cola, who people on here pointed out was clearly lame, was passed to sj at Burghley and had a poor round. Not a great look

Are younger horses doing higher levels earlier? I'm a mere spectator but there were some young horses at the world's e.g. that gorgeous french horse, I know it's only 4 star did they used to be doing such levels so young? Another youngster was Ros' LG, would he have been there at that age in the past?

Ready Teddy won Olympic gold aged 8 with Blyth Tait at Atlanta in 1996

 

[DabDab]

Let's not forget Cola, who people on here pointed out was clearly lame, was passed to sj at Burghley and had a poor round. Not a great look

Are younger horses doing higher levels earlier? I'm a mere spectator but there were some young horses at the world's e.g. that gorgeous french horse, I know it's only 4 star did they used to be doing such levels so young? Another youngster was Ros' LG, would he have been there at that age in the past?

No, but there is a line of thought that increased technicality of courses physically and mentally takes its toll on younger/greener horses more than more experienced horses.

 

[Patterdale]

I’m not commenting on the individual cases here…but too many horses (and riders) these days never leave the arena. Or they do, to do dressage or SJ on a flat manicured purpose built grass arena. Or to go to all weather gallops. They get turned out in small flat paddocks, and hacking is walking on roads.
It’s no wonder that so many can’t think for themselves.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Not just the horses, either. I know that some older commentators do like to hark back to the days of eventers out hunting, but hunting really did teach quick thinking and how to deal with changes in terrain to both horse and rider.

 

[stangs]

It’s no wonder that so many can’t think for themselves.

Hard to do so when their rider expects blind and total obedience.

 

[teapot]

Not just the horses, either. I know that some older commentators do like to hark back to the days of eventers out hunting, but hunting really did teach quick thinking and how to deal with changes in terrain to both horse and rider.

The Pros were quite vocal about the lack of entries for the Open at Gatcombe, and what it can teach people. Anyone who's ever walked that course knows how much it changes under foot, let alone hoof.

 

[HashRouge]

I’m not commenting on the individual cases here…but too many horses (and riders) these days never leave the arena. Or they do, to do dressage or SJ on a flat manicured purpose built grass arena. Or to go to all weather gallops. They get turned out in small flat paddocks, and hacking is walking on roads.
It’s no wonder that so many can’t think for themselves.

Surely that wouldn't (couldn't?) be the case for horse and rider combinations competing at 4* though?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Didn’t realise it was 3..

 

[SibeliusMB]

Yuk I loathe Denny Emerson and his harking back to the good old days where horses broke down more, competed at world champs age 8 and then burnt out by 11.

And what Denny conveniently leaves out of his self-important rambling in that link was his completely tasteless, borderline vicious attack on Boyd Martin and his connections when Crackerjack was PTS. He made some pretty awful accusations all while completely ignoring the fact that the sport also resulted in horse deaths back in his heyday...it just wasn't broadcast as social media didn't exist.

Denny can go scream into a bucket of sand for all I care. That said, modern eventing feels like it has an identity crisis, and it's causing great damage to the horses, riders, and the sport's image. It's uncomfortable to watch at times, and even more uncomfortable when I think of the idea of social license. Tom's fall at Badders over the solar panels still plays in my mind, that was horrific to watch even if it didn't result in serious injuries.

It almost feels wrong to even ask this of horses sometimes. They rely on us to keep them safe and ask fair questions. If the sport truly loves the emphasis on dressage, and will leave the stadium big and technical, maybe the XC needs to be significantly simplified. No big trappy/technical questions. No trying to catch riders out, which often only punishes the horse. Straightforward galloping, maybe more steeplechase type jumps....stop making it an outdoor SJ spectacle with things that don't fall down.

 

[daffy44]

Denny can go scream into a bucket of sand for all I care. That said, modern eventing feels like it has an identity crisis, and it's causing great damage to the horses, riders, and the sport's image. It's uncomfortable to watch at times, and even more uncomfortable when I think of the idea of social license. Tom's fall at Badders over the solar panels still plays in my mind, that was horrific to watch even if it didn't result in serious injuries.

It almost feels wrong to even ask this of horses sometimes. They rely on us to keep them safe and ask fair questions. If the sport truly loves the emphasis on dressage, and will leave the stadium big and technical, maybe the XC needs to be significantly simplified. No big trappy/technical questions. No trying to catch riders out, which often only punishes the horse. Straightforward galloping, maybe more steeplechase type jumps....stop making it an outdoor SJ spectacle with things that don't fall down.

This, 100%. I certainly dont think eventing should return to long format, but something does seem to be going wrong, too many equine deaths, its tragic, and something needs to change, I'm no expert and I dont have the answers, but I dont think it can continue as it is for much longer.

 

[LEC]

But by making it simple it becomes combined training plus and nobody wants that. People moan enough already at BE 90/100 about that.

There was a big issue in the sport back in early 2000s where it was old 2/new 3* causing the issues as biggest mix of strong level with inexperienced riders/horses being found. They solved that by raising the MERS.

I think what appears to have happened this year is riders who are very decent and are on international teams are the ones having issues. The first timers at badminton had less to none. Why? In all of this we are blaming course design, horses blah blah but we are not blaming riders or making them accountable. Mark Phillips is about the only one who can name jockeys being at fault now without people jumping up and down and he did for Badminton. It’s not a witch hunt but a should know and do better. They probably will now but the mistake has been made due to speed.

In order to combat this guiseppe della Chiesa designed a world champs 10 min horrible course that riders hated and didn’t flow using camber and making it horribly twisty to make time influential. He had no horse falls. They then maxed out the sjing with flat cups which saw a lot of poles falling.

 

[bluehorse]

I don’t think I really like this any more ?

 

[teapot]

Mark Phillips was quick to point who made mistakes over the weekend too - I find his columns refreshing in some ways as he's prepared to go 'oi you'.

There was one horse fall at Pratoni, fence 6, but not sure the coverage showed it? The pros certainly seemed to have more issues at Burghley than the first timers too, is it also partly coming down to respect? First timers are prepping more, knowing they're showing up at the big boys, whereas the Pros are perhaps too busy chasing results on multiple horses at multiple events? (obviously not all of them but hopefully someone will get my point)

 

[LEC]

Mark Phillips was quick to point who made mistakes over the weekend too - I find his columns refreshing in some ways as he's prepared to go 'oi you'.

There was one horse fall at Pratoni, fence 6, but not sure the coverage showed it? The pros certainly seemed to have more issues at Burghley than the first timers too, is it also partly coming down to respect? First timers are prepping more, knowing they're showing up at the big boys, whereas the Pros are perhaps too busy chasing results on multiple horses at multiple events? (obviously not all of them but hopefully someone will get my point)

Simple answer is they run slower…. So they make less mistakes as have more time. Emily kings and Cathal Daniels falls at end were both speed related at Badminton. Both horses were asked to jump in the wrong shape while slightly tired. The riders simply didn’t respect the fence enough. It was a simple profile round top….

The falls in the water at burghley appeared to be where riders pushed for the stride on a forwards distance. The Pinned oxers speed and shape again.

This is what jonelle and piggy are masters at. Presenting their horses in the best way to make the right shape. Both their horses are not natural jumpers either but high blood so jump shape holds the same to the last fence and they are comfortable holding the jump shape at speed. It is also something horses have to learn… Oliver was really unlucky at Burghley or you could argue not as could have taken a pull on both which would have changed the jump shape, but time was tight. Tom McK has had 2 bad Badminton’s now on Toledo where jump shape has gone due to speed.

 

[Soap On A Rope]

Not just the horses, either. I know that some older commentators do like to hark back to the days of eventers out hunting, but hunting really did teach quick thinking and how to deal with changes in terrain to both horse and rider.

I agree.....the hunting ban has a lot to answer for...

 

[LEC]

I agree.....the hunting ban has a lot to answer for...

Lots of them still go hunting as young horses. Tim, Jonelle and Laura Collett all farm them out to Beany Sturgis. Especially a 5/6yo that has been a bit underwhelming xc and needs to think forwards a bit more. People just don’t talk about it much because of the strong views held by people on social media…

Lots of them don’t hunt as don’t need to as move up the grades effortlessly with a good jockey until 3/4* where they need to be brave and it’s not all so easy. Plus going now is so good 95% of the time due to global warming and huge efforts by organisers.

Finally modern hunting is rubbish, having been the person who hunted a lot as a kid in 1980-/90s. Hunting is tight, loss of land, increased roadwork and less easy jumping. If packs like Cottesmore and Belvoir were looking at merging something isn’t good. You need to know your days as well. What’s the point in taking a green 5yo to big hedge day? You will break its heart and cause massive issues. I just hate the answer that it’s less hunting. It’s just so short sighted when it’s a lot more nuanced in reality with being a useful educational tool.

 

[ycbm]

I agree.....the hunting ban has a lot to answer for...

Not eventer deaths, for sure. Drag hunting and trail hunting are just as good at teaching those skills.

I suspect it's more likely that the value of the horses and possibly all year round competition stops people taking them out.
.

 

[Lyle]

I have no real answer for this, but here's my 2 bob. I evented up to 3* in the late 2000's, and pottered around the lower levels with young horses for half a decade later. I am currently not competing in eventing.

My feeling at the moment, is the type of horse I see a lot these days, the ones being sported as 'super star' material, tend not to have the same look as an old school eventer. The old eventer, while coming in a hundred different shapes and sizes, wasnt necessarily the cleanest jumper, but it had in abundance; bravery, trainability, brains and a good dash of self preservation. These things came either completely naturally and/or were fostered through good, patient training. The Endurance phase was the heart of the sport, and while many will argue it still is (especially as it's the most dangerous phase) we all know these days, you won't win unless right up there after dressage, and keeping the SJ poles in the cups. The horse who used to be a solid 1.20m jumper isn't good enough anymore, at the top end he must be able to jump 1.30m cleanly!
I see a lot of modern eventers looking either like dressage horses or showjumpers, horses with bags of movement, scope, truckloads of natural athletic talent over a fence. My musing is; it must feel amazing to jump those jumps on a horse who is so flamboyant. If you're an experienced rider, it must be fairly straight forward to skip up the levels. What's an extra 10cm to a horse who wouldn't look out of place in a 1.40m SJ class?
Are we getting horses up to the top end of the sport, through their sheer talent and being placed really well to each jump by their rider?
I don't like seeing 8 year olds at 4* level, there's a huge amount of training they need, not to mention physical and mental stamina. I've also seen a lot, horses with massive strides and jumps, and seem to get themselves into trouble without even realsiing, and no way to get out. It honestly seems like a massive ask to get a horse there, which makes me feel these horses have got their based on their talent, not necessarily their tool kit of skills that have been developed carefully over years and years. They make a mistake because something wasn't right, line, energy, focus etc and perhaps the horse hasnt even realised it's heading for a fall.

 

[sbloom]

A combination of things given any veterinary treatment will need to be FEI legal, and less wear and tear over a long period will definitely be helping.

Not sure why anyone would want to be adding additional wear and tear on horses by changing the sport back though. Upping medical treatment as a result isn’t exactly ethical either.

It's about breeding. If only we had figures for what happens to the horses that do fall by the wayside - were drop out horses dropping out for different reasons for today? Which go on to have sound, successful lives in other disciplines? What were the drop out rates? I'm quite sure there's not enough data to compare.

Let's not forget Cola, who people on here pointed out was clearly lame, was passed to sj at Burghley and had a poor round. Not a great look

Are younger horses doing higher levels earlier? I'm a mere spectator but there were some young horses at the world's e.g. that gorgeous french horse, I know it's only 4 star did they used to be doing such levels so young? Another youngster was Ros' LG, would he have been there at that age in the past?

The increase in warmblood % would be having an effect, TBs and high % crosses would mature earlier. I do think we need lower age limits but I understand this will turn the industry upside down and cause breeders financial issues in any transition period, though I have no answers as to how we'd solve that.

It almost feels wrong to even ask this of horses sometimes. They rely on us to keep them safe and ask fair questions. If the sport truly loves the emphasis on dressage, and will leave the stadium big and technical, maybe the XC needs to be significantly simplified. No big trappy/technical questions. No trying to catch riders out, which often only punishes the horse. Straightforward galloping, maybe more steeplechase type jumps....stop making it an outdoor SJ spectacle with things that don't fall down.

Some kind of half way house does seem like it might work.

I'm a million miles from being an expert on this but am at the blunt end of the epidemic of lameness we see in horses of all levels, and breeding and top end sport have the role in this.

 

[LEC]

It's about breeding. If only we had figures for what happens to the horses that do fall by the wayside - were drop out horses dropping out for different reasons for today? Which go on to have sound, successful lives in other disciplines? What were the drop out rates? I'm quite sure there's not enough data to compare.



The increase in warmblood % would be having an effect, TBs and high % crosses would mature earlier. I do think we need lower age limits but I understand this will turn the industry upside down and cause breeders financial issues in any transition period, though I have no answers as to how we'd solve that.



Some kind of half way house does seem like it might work.

I'm a million miles from being an expert on this but am at the blunt end of the epidemic of lameness we see in horses of all levels, and breeding and top end sport have the role in this.

The prices fascinate me as keep horses very well. They don’t gallop them much past a certain age and use the water treadmill a lot especially on the older ones. Reduces wear and tear. They also like at least 50% blood or blood horses. I also think they are very open about horses making mistakes as have a very clear long term plan and have faith in the raw materials and that they will often make mistakes on the path at top levels. They shrug it off and go oh well. BUT they have very loyal owners who also see longer term plan and they are magicians at knowing what they have. Harder if you are not so established to have mistakes on a horses record.

Most of the horses at Blenheim in 8/9yo were 9. It takes a special 8yo to get there and they don’t tend to go having any experience at 4* before maybe a few advanced runs. I don’t have an issue with age classes now especially eventing as they are all showcases for 4yo. The 5yo is slightly more popular and is at an appropriate age level. Ditto for 6/7yo. The horses going to Le Lion are special and pretty much all go on to much bigger things. This isn’t amateurs having a crack as they don’t get a look in for being sent even if good enough.

As for an epidemic of lameness. I think a lot is shoeing, a lot is not being patient and a lot of riding on arena surfaces too much. My farrier moans and moans how nobody cross trains or rides on grass enough. I also don’t think people are proactive enough with farrier/physio/vet joint conversions. The yards which have horses going to older age are supreme at managing and fittening.

 

[sbloom]

I think farriery is a small part, I don't think farriery is much worse than it was 30 years ago, and in some cases better. I agree surfaces are an issue. Otherwise we have breeding, training, and rider education I guess. I think all are falling short in most horse sport, we need a new paradigm with a deeper understanding of what makes a truly healthy happy horse.

 

[LEC]

I think farriery is a small part, I don't think farriery is much worse than it was 30 years ago, and in some cases better. I agree surfaces are an issue. Otherwise we have breeding, training, and rider education I guess. I think all are falling short in most horse sport, we need a new paradigm with a deeper understanding of what makes a truly healthy happy horse.

I think shoeing lacks for me some major essentials - no CPD. Luckily mine is proactive and I am super anal. They are now supposed to do CPD but there is no quality control on this and a farrier could have picked up a slight discrepancy in way they trim that they are now uneven. Nobody checks their work. I know what good shoeing looks like but how many other people do? I think a substantial amount of suspensory and sacroiliac issues are down to shoeing, arenas and surfaces.

Breeding is tricky, I think a huge amount is on how they are bought up. I think it’s under discussed and I see too many 0-3 bought up in small flat paddocks without herds. I think the Irish probably do it quite well which is why they have been popular. Just let them be feral in a herd on undulating land.

Mine never make age classes as usually too big and don’t sort themselves out until 6/7yo to go competing. So I just don’t worry about it. The 9yo who is 17.2hh has been x rayed every year since 6 and had hopefully the perfect balance of being managed to work hard but not over trained/competed. She is now on a heavier competition schedule with the new owners but should be prepared and ready for it.

 

[RachelFerd]

3 is 3 too many. I'm in total agreement with you all there.

However, there's a lot of nonsense on this thread about courses needing to go back to being good old fashioned rider frighteners - which doesn't make any sense. Lots more horses were killed in the 'good old days' over those types of tracks. The media environment has changed so that now we hear about them, rather than just being swept under the carpet and forgotten. Plus, the end point of making courses more straightforward and just 'big and bold' is that the SJ and the DR will hold more influence - so you'll get *more* dressage and SJ bred warmbloods.

There's also a comment above about 'are we pushing horses to move up the levels too soon these days' - can I just remind people that people used to take 7yos around Badminton and Burghley in the 70s - and most those horses didn't have careers that went into double digits. Those 'good ole days' didn't really exist!

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

It doesn't seem to have been mentioned on the horse and hound FB where they share news articles? I think the original one was but not the fact there's now 3 dead

 

[quizzie]

I think part of the problem is a bit chicken and egg....

The top riders are so good and accurate, that the course builders have to build ever trickier combinations to sort out the field so it isn't just a dressage/SJ competition....

...they try to do this with skinnies/accuracy, as in theory that produces less risk by encouraging glance offs rather than falls.....

...so the riders practice these more and more, and become even better at them, with the horses being drilled into straightness and obedience to ensure a clear between the flags, and (in my view...crucially)...often not encouraged to think for themselves and find their own feet....

....so when the rider makes a mistake, or the terrain produces an "off" stride.....the horse still tries to go between the flags, but having little experience of needing to "save" itself may not think fast enough to get its knees out of the way.

...The less experienced riders are often not chasing the time, plus if they are less accurate, the horse will have more experience of having to think for itself, and more time in which to do so.

...Add to all this the fact that some warmbloods simply don't seem to think as quickly as thoroughbreds, and you have a problem.

 

[sbloom]

I think shoeing lacks for me some major essentials - no CPD. Luckily mine is proactive and I am super anal. They are now supposed to do CPD but there is no quality control on this and a farrier could have picked up a slight discrepancy in way they trim that they are now uneven. Nobody checks their work. I know what good shoeing looks like but how many other people do? I think a substantial amount of suspensory and sacroiliac issues are down to shoeing, arenas and surfaces.

I agree 100%, I just don't think that it used to be any better.

 

[Patterdale]

Surely that wouldn't (couldn't?) be the case for horse and rider combinations competing at 4* though?

Yes I would say it is probably the case for most.

What we are seeing (in my humble opinion) isn’t down to single fixable factors such as fence design. It’s the result of the subtle changing of the whole ethos of riding, and riders, in a health and safety obsessed world.

That will be impossible to change because you can’t really confront it in a meaningful way. It’s devastatingly sad, but I don’t think that Eventing as we know it will exist in 20 years time. It will become genuinely unsafe as riders and horse become increasingly unable to cope with the questions asked.

That’s just my opinion though. Hopefully I’m wrong.

 

[sakura]

I agree.....the hunting ban has a lot to answer for...

Bit weird to blame the decades long ban of hunting animals with dogs for a sport being unable to stop horses from dying. One death is too many, three is indefensible.