Eventing 3 horse deaths at Blenheim HT, have courses become too technical? Are horses not prepared enough?

I do agree with those saying the risk won't ever go away given the nature of the sport and I'm not sure how you could ever work around that, unless every fence was a show jump. Then again, look at the falls we saw at the Tokyo Olympics in the pure show jumping...

There was a rotational fall/air ambulance job at Wellington in either the PN or Novice, so it can and does happen at all levels. It's just the optics and subsequent social license are beginning to be noticed by others more and more, in a world where everyone has a voice, regardless of being informed or not.
 
Just some thoughts don't really have skin in the game as such but if we are going to hark back to the good ol' days how many top eventers truly made their money from eventing is there commercialisation at the top end that may be contributing pressures or a change in riding style?

I did wonder when watching pratoni that there was a fair few shortening up and show jumping what I would have thought would be let up fences to jump from an open stride. I'm not sure as a spectator I enjoy the trappy combinations. I absolutely agree I think we are seeing horses trained to absolutely go between the flags and be bold even when it's not in their best interests and I do find that uncomfortable to watch.
 
Patterdale said:
I’m not commenting on the individual cases here…but too many horses (and riders) these days never leave the arena. Or they do, to do dressage or SJ on a flat manicured purpose built grass arena. Or to go to all weather gallops. They get turned out in small flat paddocks, and hacking is walking on roads.
It’s no wonder that so many can’t think for themselves.
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Totally agree 100%
 
Just adding another musing....
I see all the time on a riders (particularity upper level) post competition wrap ups, writing how very glad and lucky they are to have finished XC with a happy and sound horses, even if they may have had a few hiccups on course. Whilst this comes across on one hand as consolidting how important their horse's welfare is to them, isn't it a bit of a paradox? As it's also an admission that what, as a rider, we ask them to do has the potential to really harm the horse.
I've even heard TDs and Course designers be relieved that "everyone came home safe". While those of us who do the sport can compartmentalise this as 'part of the sport', i can see how this really could look odd to the non-horse person.
 
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teapot said:
I do agree with those saying the risk won't ever go away given the nature of the sport and I'm not sure how you could ever work around that, unless every fence was a show jump. Then again, look at the falls we saw at the Tokyo Olympics in the pure show jumping...

There was a rotational fall/air ambulance job at Wellington in either the PN or Novice, so it can and does happen at all levels. It's just the optics and subsequent social license are beginning to be noticed by others more and more, in a world where everyone has a voice, regardless of being informed or not.
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There was a rotational at Sapey in the Novice this year too. A pro on his second horse in that class and fifth horse of the day, and on a course that was relatively drama-free the rest of the day.
 
Lyle said:
While those of us who do the sport can compartmentalise this as 'part of the sport', i can see how this really could look odd to the non-horse person.
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Agreed, but it looks that way to some horse people too. Horses may enjoy it, but they don't know the risks and don't care about winning competitions. If you told me 10 years ago that I would be posting anything negative about eventing, I wouldn't have believed you. But here we are.
 
I've even heard TDs and Course designers be relieved that "everyone came home safe". While those of us who do the sport can compartmentalise this as 'part of the sport', i can see how this really could look odd to the non-horse person.[/QUOTE]

It is a comment that always makes me feel uncomfortable.
 
I would like to quote Patterdale remarking that horses no longer think for themselves. (my technical failure to quote)
It isnt clear to me that horses ever do much thinking about the ground under their feet?
I ride a safe share hack whose employment is hacking on bridle tracks and foot paths.
But over my 20 years as an RS hacker I have been taught to look out for and to avoid tree roots of which we have many. That the horses dont look out for themselves nor divert round the tree roots. even those that in winter go the same route every day.
 
Skib said:
I would like to quote Patterdale remarking that horses no longer think for themselves. (my technical failure to quote)
It isnt clear to me that horses ever do much thinking about the ground under their feet?
I ride a safe share hack whose employment is hacking on bridle tracks and foot paths.
But over my 20 years as an RS hacker I have been taught to look out for and to avoid tree roots of which we have many. That the horses dont look out for themselves nor divert round the tree roots. even those that in winter go the same route every day.
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This definitely varies between horses. My older TB has absolutely brilliant sense of self preservation and ground awareness. I rode him around a mountain in North Wales and he successfully negotiated narrow sheep tracks across the side of a hill and rocky passages up and down some serious inclines. He's one of the fastest horses in the country eventing at novice/2* level - but I feel great riding him at speed because he is clever with his feet and also naturally cautious. He will sometimes trip over his own feet out doing a 'boring' hack on a flat road.... but give him the mental challenge of crossing true terrain, and he really excels. Interestingly, he is a horse that will sometimes pick up the odd stop XC, because he will not jump if he doesn't think he can - If I get somewhere on a dreadful stride without enough impulsion, he's not going to risk himself. I find this very reassuring!
 
My show horse who was a racehorse then went eventing and won affiliated was sold for showing/dressage as owner/rider felt he had to be exactly right at every single fence and didn't have the ability to sort himself out if not. She had initially thought he would go advanced but sold him out of eventing to a flat work home. On the flip side, years ago I had a show jumper who I am sure would shut his eyes and just hurl himself over a fence and definitely didn't hvae the self preservation to stop if wrong.
 
i have ridden experienced hunters in wales where its tricky country.

it was wonderful to ride across deep tractor ridges and on lopsided tracks and not even be aware they were there, one hunter would pull up if he thought you falling off
 
Red-1 said:
I think the sport has indeed changed. I did my biggest challenges on a big and bold mare, she ate rider frighteners for breakfast.

I was somewhat irritated when the courses became more technical. The dressage part tests schooling and accuracy. The SJ tests accuracy too. I believe that eventing should be an all round test, so the XC should test power and boldness.

I hate the modern courses with a gallop to a cluster of jumps that are more like show jumps. They feel trappy and encourage backwards riding.

I read an interesting article that blames the increase of the technical clusters. It means the riders are making the horses more 'on the bit' and 'obedient' as opposed to free forward movement with the horse looking at the fence and making some of the decisions as to where their feet go!
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I agree with this 100%. Why on earth are course designers not urgently setting a meeting to discuss what they need to sort out? They need to change their courses as what they're doing simply isnt acceptable. They have to take responsibility. Even one death is not acceptable. Otherwise we will lose our sport altogether.
 
spacefaer said:
Just a thought to throw out there .... With the emphasis on safety, and the improvements on the xc with frangible pins and MIM clips etc, do we think that riders are riding less cautiously over fences they know will knock down if they get them wrong? Which leads to horses not understanding the difference between xc knockdown fences and solid ones?
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I dont believe people would be slap dash enough to ride "less cautiously" over any solid obstacle. Even with frangible pins etc. you wouldnt want to hit one. I do think perhaps it could confuse the horses though... like you say they might assume other jumps will then fall much like in show jumping.
 
MagicMelon said:
I agree with this 100%. Why on earth are course designers not urgently setting a meeting to discuss what they need to sort out? They need to change their courses as what they're doing simply isnt acceptable. They have to take responsibility. Even one death is not acceptable. Otherwise we will lose our sport altogether.
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But the data says that courses ARE getting safer - so it is our perception that is changing more quickly than the nature of the sport is.

also edited to add - I'm just diving into the BE stats as well as the FEI ones. BE have been collecting safety data since 2002 and have been analysiing with support of the Transport Research Laboratory. The percentage of riders involved in horse somersault falls has been greatly reduced since 2002 - in fact, current levels are 75% less than in 2002 - horse falls have remained at a fairly stable level since 2010 (which probably aligns with widespread use of frangible technology).

Now this is heavily simplified and there's obviously much more work that goes on into looking at what happens at different levels of the sport - but its another bit of factual data which supports wider evidence that things are getting safer for horses and riders, not less. So knee-jerk reactions to what is probably just the weird impact of probability, aren't helpful to anyone involved in equestrianism.
 
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Also let’s get some perspective one of the fences was a skinny house. It couldn’t have been any simpler and is seen a 80cm all the way up the levels to 5*. It was on 3/4 curving strides again a question seen from novice upwards. How can course designers mitigate for that?!? This isn’t a course design issue it’s a rider issue at a fence like that. The profile is a straightforward profile. It’s not a table, a trakehner etc
 
Worth noting what Pippa Funnell said in relation to the use of clips and max fence dimensions after one of her rounds at Burghley.

She felt safety features were allowing course designers to build bigger, wider, bolder, which wasn’t necessarily a good thing. If PF is saying it, you can bet others are thinking it.

As for knee-jerk reactions - people still need to realise what it looks to those who are not involved. They won’t care that the fence had a nice profile, because they don’t understand what it means.

We had a rule of thumb in one of my old jobs that no photos would be used on social media if a horse/situation didn’t look 100% to the untrained eye/general public. Unfortunately it matters in the world of social media - we once even had to defend why a hairy pony was out in a field in snow without a rug on!
 
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Cloball said:
Just some thoughts don't really have skin in the game as such but if we are going to hark back to the good ol' days how many top eventers truly made their money from eventing is there commercialisation at the top end that may be contributing pressures or a change in riding style?

I did wonder when watching pratoni that there was a fair few shortening up and show jumping what I would have thought would be let up fences to jump from an open stride. I'm not sure as a spectator I enjoy the trappy combinations. I absolutely agree I think we are seeing horses trained to absolutely go between the flags and be bold even when it's not in their best interests and I do find that uncomfortable to watch.
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LG commented that the triple bar (6?) wasn’t really acting as she expected to with regards to the jump they were getting at it.

in my memory there was a period where you were getting fewer open rails and I think not really any open corners but that since the MIMS (more than frangibles) they’ve come back again?
 
Skib said:
I would like to quote Patterdale remarking that horses no longer think for themselves. (my technical failure to quote)
It isnt clear to me that horses ever do much thinking about the ground under their feet?
I ride a safe share hack whose employment is hacking on bridle tracks and foot paths.
But over my 20 years as an RS hacker I have been taught to look out for and to avoid tree roots of which we have many. That the horses dont look out for themselves nor divert round the tree roots. even those that in winter go the same route every day.
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I ride a retired 2* eventer. We have been known to dance along 6” ridge beside a ditch (not by choice of course ?) and navigate ruts and ridges with ease. Years of training will make sure horses have to work out how to use their feet.
 
There was a time when "open" corner fences were considered dangerous, and all corners had to be filled in, with tops on. Now with pins and clips, they're ubiquitous and are being built with plain rails, which knock down.

There used to be a thing called jump cross, which appeared to be showjumps across country. (I never did it but it was quite popular in Scotland) Is that the way we're going?
 
ycbm said:
I am not disputing the power of social media opinion. They aren't my critics, by the way, I gave up eventing long ago. And I'm very uncomfortable about top level eventing.

But I'll tell you again, if you had been on the horse in my avatar you could not possibly mistake whether he was having fun. Firstly, you cannot train a horse to scan for the next fence, they either go where they're told, or they scan for themselves, and you know when they do that because they will often latch onto the wrong fence, and that's often a bigger one than the one they are supposed to be going for.

He would load himself into any open lorry in the hope of going to an event. He jumped show jump courses when turned out with a set of showjumps in a grass field.

If he latched onto the wrong fence it was sometimes a significant effort to stop him jumping it.

And one day, just to check, we finished the dressage and show jumping and I changed my tack and clothes, mounted, dropped my reins and waited. Not for long.

He stuck his head in the air scanning the whole area, spotted the white start box that was so far away I could barely see it, and set off marching to the cross country start.

He loved it.
.
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I knew a horse like this. Incidentally, he was a bit of a nightmare handling around the yard but when he clocked that he was being pointed at a fence you could almost see the grin on his face as he locked on and went for it. That was one horse though. One. I have known many hundreds of horses and can only remember one who demonstrated such total joy at being aimed at a big jump. Most are just doing whatever their breeders and subsequent owners plan on them doing, as well as they can get them to do it. TBF, it's very few people who head for work every single morning with an, "awesome, let me at it" attitude, but I really think when people claim their horses "love to jump", at least 9 out of 10 just jump because that's what they're trained to do.

I love watching top level cross country and I love watching jump racing, but they're both blooming dangerous for the horses and riders, and pretty twisted when I allow myself to think about the ethics of them.
 
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Cloball said:
Just some thoughts don't really have skin in the game as such but if we are going to hark back to the good ol' days how many top eventers truly made their money from eventing is there commercialisation at the top end that may be contributing pressures or a change in riding style?
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RachelFerd said:
But the data says that courses ARE getting safer - so it is our perception that is changing more quickly than the nature of the sport is.

also edited to add - I'm just diving into the BE stats as well as the FEI ones. BE have been collecting safety data since 2002 and have been analysiing with support of the Transport Research Laboratory. The percentage of riders involved in horse somersault falls has been greatly reduced since 2002 - in fact, current levels are 75% less than in 2002 - horse falls have remained at a fairly stable level since 2010 (which probably aligns with widespread use of frangible technology).

Now this is heavily simplified and there's obviously much more work that goes on into looking at what happens at different levels of the sport - but its another bit of factual data which supports wider evidence that things are getting safer for horses and riders, not less. So knee-jerk reactions to what is probably just the weird impact of probability, aren't helpful to anyone involved in equestrianism.
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I wonder if there is still an effect from sponsorship. When frangible pins were introduced there was a lot of discussion feeling that riders were riding with longer stirrups, as an example, so they were less likely to fall, which had made them more vulnerable to rotational falls. I can't imagine these risks go away with the safety measures taken, they could morph, or even get exaggerated. It's a bit like how to deal with traffic in city centres - the most successful approaches are essentially to make everything appear LESS safe, so drivers have to slow down and really pay attention. Make roads safer, cars safer, people drive faster and accident rates fell at first but now have plateaued and I would imagine in some black spots etc have perhaps even worsened with "safety measures".
 
sbloom said:
I wonder if there is still an effect from sponsorship. When frangible pins were introduced there was a lot of discussion feeling that riders were riding with longer stirrups, as an example, so they were less likely to fall, which had made them more vulnerable to rotational falls. I can't imagine these risks go away with the safety measures taken, they could morph, or even get exaggerated. It's a bit like how to deal with traffic in city centres - the most successful approaches are essentially to make everything appear LESS safe, so drivers have to slow down and really pay attention. Make roads safer, cars safer, people drive faster and accident rates fell at first but now have plateaued and I would imagine in some black spots etc have perhaps even worsened with "safety measures".
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Yes I think that's fair - we're at a position where the sport is definitely safer than it was, but at a bit of a plateau, despite increasing use of more frangible tech like MiMs.

I think what's clear to me from this thread is that safety isn't changing, but public perception and the media/social media environment is changing more quickly than safety is. Could FEI and BE do more to demonstrate the amount of work and research that goes in to trying to ensure participant safety - probably yes - but hard to do it without also publicising the level of risk, which then raises lots of the questions we've talked about on this thread...

Now, when a course does have an issue that has created more danger than it should have done - eg. the brush corner in the trout hatchery at Burghley causing multiple horse falls - we should all be reassured that designers and officials will be looking at the detail and trying to understand and correct the problems that have come from it. This stuff isn't being ignored - on the contrary it is being picked over in detail.

But at the end of the day, there is inherent risk in riding horses over solid fences that will never go away. We're getting better at understanding risk factors, but we will never be able to eradicate errors in rider and horse judgement - there's probably a residual % risk of a horse fall at *any* fence, and then a residual tiny % risk of that horse fall resulting in tragic injury. There is also a % risk of horses breaking down catastrophically which can happen eventing or racing, but can equally happen during turnout or lower intensity exercise. And whether or not we can accept those risks determines whether equine sport as a whole continues, or not.
 
I don't think that the public, who know very little about horse sport, will care if safety in eventing has got better, worse, or has plateaued. Or they will read is the headlines that say three horses had to be destroyed following a day's sport. The only reason this doesn't get more publicity is because eventing doesn't get the extensive media coverage of racing. If three horses had died either during or after the Grand National then there would be a huge public outcry. At some point the dam will burst, the public will cotton on to what's happening and then eventing will be in real trouble.
 
Ok, I understand the stats that safety isnt changing, and of course I understand that riding horses over fixed fences is inherently a dangerous thing to do and will never be risk free, I can accept these things, and I certainly dont want a return to long format.
But then what are causing these deaths? Two dead after Branham, three dead after Blenheim, this is not normal (thank goodness) and whilst I can accept that one of these occasions could just be really unlucky, two in the same year seems to point to an issue, rather than just bad luck.
So what can be done to mitigate these awful tragedies?
 
daffy44 said:
But then what are causing these deaths? Two dead after Branham, three dead after Blenheim, this is not normal (thank goodness) and whilst I can accept that one of these occasions could just be really unlucky, two in the same year seems to point to an issue, rather than just bad luck.
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I would imagine this is where the pandemic comes into it.
 
Flame_ said:
I knew a horse like this. Incidentally, he was a bit of a nightmare handling around the yard but when he clocked that he was being pointed at a fence you could almost see the grin on his face as he locked on and went for it. That was one horse though. One. I have known many hundreds of horses and can only remember one who demonstrated such total joy at being aimed at a big jump. Most are just doing whatever their breeders and subsequent owners plan on them doing, as well as they can get them to do it. TBF, it's very few people who head for work every single morning with an, "awesome, let me at it" attitude, but I really think when people claim their horses "love to jump", at least 9 out of 10 just jump because that's what they're trained to do.

I love watching top level cross country and I love watching jump racing, but they're both blooming dangerous for the horses and riders, and pretty twisted when I allow myself to think about the ethics of them.
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We have a horse like this in the yard. He has been flat racing all summer and his last couple of runs when the Jockey said GO he said NO! He ran on Sunday on the flat and said NOPE. He ran yesterday over hurdles and he said BRING IT ON!!! He loved his hurdle race.
 
I’ve wondered re the pandemic having an effect, at burghley it seemed horses were having their first run there late as a result and has it perhaps changed the prep they’ve had getting there.

I’ve also been wondering given the poss lack of falls at pratoni whether that’s partly because they’ve been able to have a test event and change things as a result (LG mentioned jumps being shifted further from shade). And that you’re then not getting unexpected issues with fences that weren’t predicted to cause issues. Especially given that I think we’re still pretty crap at understanding horse eyesight.
 
daffy44 said:
Ok, I understand the stats that safety isnt changing, and of course I understand that riding horses over fixed fences is inherently a dangerous thing to do and will never be risk free, I can accept these things, and I certainly dont want a return to long format.
But then what are causing these deaths? Two dead after Branham, three dead after Blenheim, this is not normal (thank goodness) and whilst I can accept that one of these occasions could just be really unlucky, two in the same year seems to point to an issue, rather than just bad luck.
So what can be done to mitigate these awful tragedies?
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sbloom said:
I would imagine this is where the pandemic comes into it.
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I'm just not sure there's a common thread between these five fatalities. One seems to relate to potentially bad fence design at Bramham (fence subsequently removed), one sounds like it was maybe a heart condition that impacted overnight (not sure if i've got the right end of the stick), one was a horse fall at a totally nondescript house type spread fence, one was a horse fall at an early straightforward spread fence, one was a breakdown (unfortunate ticking time bomb type injury).

There's not much common thread between these. The two horse falls at Blenheim were both horses that were new to the level, so you can renew the pressure on looking at MERs...
 
RachelFerd said:
I'm just not sure there's a common thread between these five fatalities. One seems to relate to potentially bad fence design at Bramham (fence subsequently removed), one sounds like it was maybe a heart condition that impacted overnight (not sure if i've got the right end of the stick), one was a horse fall at a totally nondescript house type spread fence, one was a horse fall at an early straightforward spread fence, one was a breakdown (unfortunate ticking time bomb type injury).

There's not much common thread between these. The two horse falls at Blenheim were both horses that were new to the level, so you can renew the pressure on looking at MERs...
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So it really is just a tragic one off with no real connection between the deaths? Is there an arguement for tweaking the MERs to include not just x amount of runs and results at a level, but that one or two of those runs has to include certain venues that are more challenging? So you cant qualify by just running easier courses on flat ground with two phases on a surface?
 
RachelFerd said:
I'm just not sure there's a common thread between these five fatalities. One seems to relate to potentially bad fence design at Bramham (fence subsequently removed), one sounds like it was maybe a heart condition that impacted overnight (not sure if i've got the right end of the stick), one was a horse fall at a totally nondescript house type spread fence, one was a horse fall at an early straightforward spread fence, one was a breakdown (unfortunate ticking time bomb type injury).

There's not much common thread between these. The two horse falls at Blenheim were both horses that were new to the level, so you can renew the pressure on looking at MERs...
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I'm just sort of thinking aloud here because I agree that the growing problem is more a thing of perception....but I wonder if there is sometimes a failure to look at things more holistically. I know humans gravitate towards over-simplifying and generalising and (as on this thread) like to bang the drum for their own favourite root cause, but I wonder if that is the case for the governing bodies too.

Talking about the profile of a fence is all well and good but nobody jumps a fence on its own, it has to be considered in the context of the whole course, just like an advanced dressage rider fluffing a walk trot transition in a test is more to do with the mental energy required for the test as a whole than that movement alone. Ticking time bomb health issues (whether heart or limb) is all very well and good but how have we got horses being presented for top level sport with those sorts of issues going unnoticed? Is there truly no screening that would identify them? MERS seem to need constant re-evaluation, is that because the industry is changing so rapidly that capturing the right criteria to ensure competency is an ever shifting set of goalposts. Are the courses encouraging the wrong kind of riding or the wrong kind of horse to be developed? Etc etc

The thing is that for every incident with an unfortunate outcome there will be many more with a lucky outcome. Just looking at the deaths and serious injuries probably isn't that helpful for digging out common causes and connections. Even looking at all horse falls probably won't get you even a fraction of the understanding you need, because again you are looking at individual fences and only once something has already gone wrong.

But then do the likes of BE really have the money to do that kind of research and analysis. I doubt it. So informed guess work is probably the best that the industry can manage and just hope that it makes enough of a difference. But right now it doesn't feel like it is making enough of a difference. Not in the court of public opinion anyway.
 
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