Eventing 3 horse deaths at Blenheim HT, have courses become too technical? Are horses not prepared enough?

[RachelFerd]

I think we've also got to try and understand what an acceptable risk level is. Jumping fixed fences is inherently risky and will never stop causing serious accidents and deaths for horses and riders.

I've often asked myself the question 'why' do I continue to keep doing it (despite being someone who is pretty squeamish about causing unnecessary suffering - I don't even eat meat). But for me, the feeling of pure joy and enthusiasm you get from the horse when jumping cross country explains 'why' - despite the risk. I do believe (maybe naively) that horses experience real joy in running and jumping and picking up the flags.

 

[teapot]

I do believe (maybe naively) that horses experience real joy in running and jumping and picking up the flags.

Sadly though, that belief is no longer acceptable to increasing numbers of people. ‘They enjoy it’ doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny under the concept social license.

I can see equestrian sport changing in my lifetime now.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think we've also got to try and understand what an acceptable risk level is. Jumping fixed fences is inherently risky and will never stop causing serious accidents and deaths for horses and riders.

I've often asked myself the question 'why' do I continue to keep doing it (despite being someone who is pretty squeamish about causing unnecessary suffering - I don't even eat meat). But for me, the feeling of pure joy and enthusiasm you get from the horse when jumping cross country explains 'why' - despite the risk. I do believe (maybe naively) that horses experience real joy in running and jumping and picking up the flags.

I agree with this. I love it and I think Lottie does too. I'm at lower levels but the risks are still real. But if I gave up eventing I think I'd give it all up as nothing else remotely compares.

Sadly though, that belief is no longer acceptable to increasing numbers of people. ‘They enjoy it’ doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny under the concept social license.

I can see equestrian sport changing in my lifetime now.

I am not sure that is true, really. Taking the wider picture of factory farming, puppy farms, dodgy breeding etc. I think fit, healthy, well cared for event horses doing a job they evidently love, are not going to be high up the list for concerns outside a very small group. That;s not to say I think what happened at Blenheim is ok. But I doubt more than a small %age of the general population know what eventing is. Let alone that 3 horses died eventing at Blenheim.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Do not be complacent that the wider public does not know or care about the deaths at Blenheim and other events. Or do be complacent and see your sport end within a few years.

 

[Cortez]

I agree with this. I love it and I think Lottie does too. I'm at lower levels but the risks are still real. But if I gave up eventing I think I'd give it all up as nothing else remotely compares.



I am not sure that is true, really. Taking the wider picture of factory farming, puppy farms, dodgy breeding etc. I think fit, healthy, well cared for event horses doing a job they evidently love, are not going to be high up the list for concerns outside a very small group. That;s not to say I think what happened at Blenheim is ok. But I doubt more than a small %age of the general population know what eventing is. Let alone that 3 horses died eventing at Blenheim.

TBF, I think there is no comparison between animals raised for slaughter and horses regularly dying performing a sporting activity. The fact that the general population may not be aware of it isn't a good argument either.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Do not be complacent that the wider public does not know or care about the deaths at Blenheim. Or do be complacent and see your sport stopped.

I'm not complacent - I just have not seen any evidence of a big outcry. I might be wrong but I dont't think eventing is high profile enough to cut through.
An I am not personally complacent about risk to horses either. But others have expressed themselves about that far better than I can. So my answer was just focused on the question of whether eventing is under threat. I don;t think it is.

And I DO think welfare concerns should cover ALL animals. Eating them is a choice too. As is what type of animal you choose to eat. Free range/ organic or those raised in appalling conditions. I've never understood people who happily eat factory farmed meat but then are concerned about far lower levels of suffering in far happier animals used for leisure or sport.

 

[RachelFerd]

TBF, I think there is no comparison between animals raised for slaughter and horses regularly dying performing a sporting activity. The fact that the general population may not be aware of it isn't a good argument either.

I think this is where my views differ - for me, the world of meat production is incomprehensibly violent and cruel - animals living short lives often with no opportunity for any kind of freedom or expression. With no actual "need" for any of it to happen - the fact that this goes on at an industrial scale horrifies me on a daily basis. I don't understand the mental contortion that takes place for someone to criticize the training and keeping of horses whilst munching on the carcass of a 7 week old broiler chicken that has never even been able to go outside.

 

[stangs]

I do believe (maybe naively) that horses experience real joy in running and jumping and picking up the flags.

The problem is that you would say that. Everyone involved in a controversial activity says that the animal enjoys whatever it is that's controversial: lions in the circus, belugas doing shows, bulls involved in bull riding, etc.

Regardless of whether your horse does enjoy being out eventing or not, there's no concrete evidence that he does - I'm sure we've all known someone who claimed their horse loved X because his ears were pricked, even when horse was anxious out of his mind and running off with them - so a 'non-believer' rightfully won't trust you on that. It doesn't stand up as an argument.

 

[RachelFerd]

The problem is that you would say that. Everyone involved in a controversial activity says that the animal enjoys whatever it is that's controversial: lions in the circus, belugas doing shows, bulls involved in bull riding, etc.

Regardless of whether your horse does enjoy being out eventing or not, there's no concrete evidence that he does - I'm sure we've all known someone who claimed their horse loved X because his ears were pricked, even when horse was anxious out of his mind and running off with them - so a 'non-believer' rightfully won't trust you on that. It doesn't stand up as an argument.

No, I don't believe it does stand up as an argument. But its the reason why I keep doing it - despite the risks.

 

[ycbm]

It happened in the past so it doesn't matter that it happens now is also a very bad argument. Social media didn't exist. We didn't know how great the cognitive skills of animals is (who knew a goldfish could navigate an obstacle course to obtain a reward? ). We didn't think animals deserved a choice of their own and many/most people now do.

I get the factory farming argument, but I do think there is a difference, maybe subtle, between animals dying to produce affordable animal protein (that our systems are designed to need) for the majority of the population and animals dying by being asked too hard a question as a result of a human's need to win competitions.
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[ycbm]

Regardless of whether your horse does enjoy being out eventing or not, there's no concrete evidence that he does.

Actually, if you've ridden an eventer enjoying the cross country, it's unmistakable. The horse in my avatar would go through a gateway into a huge field and scan the whole area for a flagged fence. On spotting it (not always the right one ?) he would gallop straight to it and jump it, even if was a narrow obstacle alone in the middle of 20 acres and his box was in the other direction.

 

[sakura]

I agree with all of this, I also do not eat meat for ethical reasons. I have also always refused to take my horse xc, despite her loving it in previous homes. I just don't want to risk her, and since I don't care about doing it myself, it was an easy choice.

Riding horses is, by its nature, inherently risky, so we owe it to horses to minimise that risk wherever we can - and however we decide that might be. Which, of course, differs vastly amongst the population. Eventing, does however, need to make changes. I don't know what those changes are.

 

[RachelFerd]

It happened in the past so it doesn't matter that it happens now is also a very bad argument. Social media didn't exist. We didn't know how great the cognitive skills of animals is (who knew a goldfish could navigate an obstacle course to obtain a reward? ). We didn't think animals deserved a choice of their own and many/most people now do.

I get the factory farming argument, but I do think there is a difference, maybe subtle, between animals dying to produce affordable animal protein (that our systems are designed to need) for the majority of the population and animals dying by being asked too hard a question as a result of a human's need to win competitions.
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I don't think anyone's making the argument in your first para. Just pointing out that returning to the courses of old isn't going to fix the problem, because the problem has always been there - it has just been less visible. And that it is easy to make mistakes in claiming that something has changed for the worse, when there isn't actually any factual/data evidence to support that view.

In the UK we kill 90 million broiler chickens every month - that's criminal levels of cruelty. I don't want any animals to die as a result of being asked to win competitions either though, but then I don't think anyone does - we all see it as an absolute tragedy. But I don't see it as criminal in the same way that I feel about factory farming.

 

[Orangehorse]

I was as upset as everyone else to see that 3 horses had died.

But it is just chance isn't it? If a rider has a fall, what % are you hurt? Mostly you are OK, if a bit bruised or a sometimes you get more injured like a broken bone and in a very small number of cases the rider is severely injured and in an even smaller number, killed. Like when the horse falls, mostly the rider is thrown clear but by what fraction of inches is the rider caught underneath the horse?

Same as for the horse. If those horses had fallen, but got up and led away to the stables and maybe had an injury but not too bad, no one would have heard about it. So what made the difference to the horse falling, and the horse falling and sustaining a fatal injury?

If a fence causes numerous problems then it probably is the fault of the fence/course builder, but sometimes it is the rider getting it wrong, giving the wrong aid, putting the horse in an impossible place to make the jump which causes it to fall. Or it used to be in the old days that a horse might have been so headstrong that it wasn't under control and that led to falls.

Watching on TV, you can see the ones that are not so well schooled and you know that they are going to be fortunate to get a clear round.

As for breeding, rearing youngsters, schooling, etc. well that is a whole different mine field.

 

[ycbm]

So what made the difference to the horse falling, and the horse falling and sustaining a fatal injury?

My feeling is that if you take the level of hypermobility required to be competitive after the dressage and then ask those horses to gallop for 4 miles over fixed fences, they are going to be far less likely to be able to withstand the stresses from flinging out a leg to save themselves from falling, and far more likely to get themselves into that position because of the sheer amount of energy it takes to hold hypermobilty together.

I don't know how this can be researched but I'd like to see someone try.
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[cauda equina]

Maybe there's an argument to be made for judging eventing dressage differently from pure dressage

 

[Orangehorse]

Actually, if you've ridden an eventer enjoying the cross country, it's unmistakable. The horse in my avatar would go through a gateway into a huge field and scan the whole area for a flagged fence. On spotting it (not always the right one ?) he would gallop straight to it and jump it, even if was a narrow obstacle alone in the middle of 20 acres and his box was in the other direction.

Mine did that too.

 

[teapot]

I agree with this. I love it and I think Lottie does too. I'm at lower levels but the risks are still real. But if I gave up eventing I think I'd give it all up as nothing else remotely compares.



I am not sure that is true, really. Taking the wider picture of factory farming, puppy farms, dodgy breeding etc. I think fit, healthy, well cared for event horses doing a job they evidently love, are not going to be high up the list for concerns outside a very small group. That;s not to say I think what happened at Blenheim is ok. But I doubt more than a small %age of the general population know what eventing is. Let alone that 3 horses died eventing at Blenheim.

The Animal Welfare Watch or whatever it’s called were VERY aware of Horse and Hound posting about the first death at Blenheim. It was immediately shared on their fb page, and I’m sure elsewhere.

Do not underestimate these organisations.

ETS - I see they are aware of all three. If they’re aware, I’d be surprised if PETA wasn’t.

 

[Cortez]

Maybe there's an argument to be made for judging eventing dressage differently from pure dressage

It already is! Everyone claiming that 3DE is now just a dressage competition hasn't really looked at "proper" dressage.

 

[cauda equina]

Are judges looking for the same ideals though, even though the tests are very different?
I'm thinking about ycbm mentioning hypermobility

 

[clinkerbuilt]

re: social license, I think the decision (unlike in racing) will have to be internal. This is the only current non-equestrian coverage I can find of Blenheim:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-62916952

 

[RachelFerd]

Also just sharing this stat from the FEI falls data (which starts from 2010 - which isn't as long as you'd like, but there you go...) - which is to say I think there's a bit of scaremongering going on when we look at the micro picture of the sport at Blenheim compared to the stats which show a sport that is demonstrably getting safer.

The percentage of rotational horse falls (higher risk of injuries for horse and athlete) has decreased from 0.31 horse fall every 100 starters (1 rotational horse fall every 327 starters) in 2010 to 0.15 rotational horse fall every 100 starters (1 rotational horse fall every 663 starters) in 2021. Rotational falls have constantly been decreasing since 2013.

 

[honetpot]

Not just the horses, either. I know that some older commentators do like to hark back to the days of eventers out hunting, but hunting really did teach quick thinking and how to deal with changes in terrain to both horse and rider.

I think its not just about hunting, its about the general fitting for work, time constraints, and the obsession in keeping horses 'safe' in their environment.
You can not turn back the clock, but in the 70's-80's there were no horse walkers, surfaces to ride on unless you were at an equestrian centre, so you 90 mins work was on rodes tracks and uneven ground, the only gallops we had were a gravel or if you were lucky a farmers track. The only short cut was ride and lead one. If you have one horse you can perhaps prep a couple, but if you are making a living and have a yard the temptation is to put them on the horse walker, do a bit of school work, and perhaps do the quickest route when out, on a safe track.
Riders access to routes has changed because of more car traffic, and sharing off road routes with other users, when I look at the places I used to ride and hardly see anyone any day, now they are used by runners, dog walkers, and cyclists, on there are housing estates on them This means it virtually impossible to take your horse out, even if you can get past the traffic and trot and canter for an hour with out worrying what is around the corner.
Eventing has a bit of a free pass PR wise, supported by the royals,the country set, and country house settings, being popular but also niche, unlike the racing industry which anyone can go, old race courses on the edges of town, or like Doncaster just about in town now, it's a day out for all the family. A horse dies at the races and a huge amount of people are aware of it, but also by going to support the event, so it's easier to get support for racing. Eventing and the attached horses events, lets face it are never going to get that support, because their unique selling point has always been elitism, you just have to look at the sponsors at the big events.
I think eventing has come to a cross roads, even without the horse deaths, just look at the thread what has BE done wrong. The grassroots want a day out and not knacker their horse, as it will not only have cost them a large part of their income, but may be their only ride, and because of time, money and facility constraints will never get to the upper levels, so that perhaps leaves the top 5% and BE, who really need to think about what they are doing, and why and the image they promote.

Also just sharing this stat from the FEI falls data (which starts from 2010 - which isn't as long as you'd like, but there you go...) - which is to say I think there's a bit of scaremongering going on when we look at the micro picture of the sport at Blenheim compared to the stats which show a sport that is demonstrably getting safer.

I think we have to be careful on relying on stats, because public opinion is often more powerful.

 

[RachelFerd]

I think we have to be careful on relying on stats, because public opinion is often more powerful.

I think 'we' as participants and fans of equine sport have to be careful about spouting off about how dangerous something has become, without looking at the facts first. Because our reaction will influence public opinion (which I agree, is important). But lots of people sitting on this thread bemoaning how awful it is that 'more horses are falling XC these days' is not helpful when it definitely isn't true!

 

[Skib]

My understanding is a bit different and possibly wrong. Eventing prepares a military charger so risk and danger were part of the process. Eventing as a competition developed in Germany after World War 1 to encourage the breeding and future survival of military horses. Some of the legendary early competitors had ridden their chargers back from the Eastern front in WW1 and that goes for winners of the jumping Derbys too.

Whereas the UK and USA gave up their army horses in the mid 1930s, the Germans continued to breed and train horses which had not been limited by restrictions on German armaments in the Versailles Peace Treaty.
Germans won all the equestrian Gold medals in the 1936 Olympics trained by Burkner whose autobiography I have (only in German) and the medal winners were all in the army.
A lot was romanticised post war about Patten and Podhajsky and saving of the white horses. But the real history of German horses in WW2 is grim. Both Russians and Germans used cavalry to back up their tanks and two recent studies show how the Germans and the German SS used horses to hunt down Jews and "partisans" .
"Of the 322 German and SS divisions existing in November 1943, only 52 were armored or motorized".

 

[stangs]

Actually, if you've ridden an eventer enjoying the cross country, it's unmistakable. The horse in my avatar would go through a gateway into a huge field and scan the whole area for a flagged fence. On spotting it (not always the right one ?) he would gallop straight to it and jump it, even if was a narrow obstacle alone in the middle of 20 acres and his box was in the other direction.

But your critics haven't ridden an eventer. Your critics would take one look at a horse jumping a flagged fence, even if at liberty, and argue that it's because of its reinforcement history/learned helplessness/abusive training techniques.

I see the occasional video of a barrel racer doing a run or a showjumper completing a course, without their riders, and the comments are usually split 50/50 between "they're doing it because they love it" and "they're doing it because they see no other choice". Who's to say which side is more accurate?

 

[ycbm]

But your critics haven't ridden an eventer. Your critics would take one look at a horse jumping a flagged fence, even if at liberty, and argue that it's because of its reinforcement history/learned helplessness/abusive training techniques.

I see the occasional video of a barrel racer doing a run or a showjumper completing a course, without their riders, and the comments are usually split 50/50 between "they're doing it because they love it" and "they're doing it because they see no other choice". Who's to say which side is more accurate?

I am not disputing the power of social media opinion. They aren't my critics, by the way, I gave up eventing long ago. And I'm very uncomfortable about top level eventing.

But I'll tell you again, if you had been on the horse in my avatar you could not possibly mistake whether he was having fun. Firstly, you cannot train a horse to scan for the next fence, they either go where they're told, or they scan for themselves, and you know when they do that because they will often latch onto the wrong fence, and that's often a bigger one than the one they are supposed to be going for.

He would load himself into any open lorry in the hope of going to an event. He jumped show jump courses when turned out with a set of showjumps in a grass field.

If he latched onto the wrong fence it was sometimes a significant effort to stop him jumping it.

And one day, just to check, we finished the dressage and show jumping and I changed my tack and clothes, mounted, dropped my reins and waited. Not for long.

He stuck his head in the air scanning the whole area, spotted the white start box that was so far away I could barely see it, and set off marching to the cross country start.

He loved it.
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[honetpot]

My understanding is a bit different and possibly wrong. Eventing prepares a military charger so risk and danger were part of the process. Eventing as a competition developed in Germany after World War 1 to encourage the breeding and future survival of military horses. Some of the legendary early competitors had ridden their chargers back from the Eastern front in WW1 and that goes for winners of the jumping Derbys too.

I think the English school of competition riding and the German, are very different in their history. When you look at the traditions on English riding it was based on a working animal, even if the work was hunting, or house carriage or cart horse, repurposed for another sport, like steeplechasing, XC, or eventually eventing,riding over natural countryside. The HIS was formed to provide a better class of hunter, but an off shoot it produced an all purpose sports horse crossed with what ever a farmer had stored in a field. I am just old enough to have seen a HIS travelling stallion cover a mare in the yard, for about £50, it walked out of the trailer, did the job, and walked back on. So it was an entry level sports horse, kept with livestock at home, living out 24/7 most of the time, until it turned three. The nearest you would get today is perhaps a TB foster foal, where they put a TB or ID stallion on a large coloured cob mare.
There was always a chance you pick up something with talent at a reasonable outlay, whether the drive breeding from an ever smaller pool of expensive stallions, is a good thing or bad in terms of durability only time will tell, but it has increased costs of production, and made a specialist horse that perhaps needs more than a competent rider, with professional facilities and time.

 

[teapot]

Also just sharing this stat from the FEI falls data (which starts from 2010 - which isn't as long as you'd like, but there you go...) - which is to say I think there's a bit of scaremongering going on when we look at the micro picture of the sport at Blenheim compared to the stats which show a sport that is demonstrably getting safer.

The percentage of rotational horse falls (higher risk of injuries for horse and athlete) has decreased from 0.31 horse fall every 100 starters (1 rotational horse fall every 327 starters) in 2010 to 0.15 rotational horse fall every 100 starters (1 rotational horse fall every 663 starters) in 2021. Rotational falls have constantly been decreasing since 2013.

Out of interest when did Mimms clips start being used?

I've just been clearing some drawers and found a load of three day event programmes. If anyone wants pics of the Badminton course of 2006, Blenheim 2009 etc shout. Out of 30+ fences at Badminton 2006, I can count four fences that involve gappy open pieces of timber.

 

[TealH0rse]

3 is 3 too many. I'm in total agreement with you all there.

However, there's a lot of nonsense on this thread about courses needing to go back to being good old fashioned rider frighteners - which doesn't make any sense. Lots more horses were killed in the 'good old days' over those types of tracks. The media environment has changed so that now we hear about them, rather than just being swept under the carpet and forgotten. Plus, the end point of making courses more straightforward and just 'big and bold' is that the SJ and the DR will hold more influence - so you'll get *more* dressage and SJ bred warmbloods.

There's also a comment above about 'are we pushing horses to move up the levels too soon these days' - can I just remind people that people used to take 7yos around Badminton and Burghley in the 70s - and most those horses didn't have careers that went into double digits. Those 'good ole days' didn't really exist!

Yes, they need to learn from the mistakes of past and present and create far safer courses and jumps rather than revert back to old. I’m only ever on the sidelines and I would much rather see a safer, ‘boring’ course than what they currently have. The thrill people get from what is quite frankly often a silly, dangerous course is not worth any death.

At the end of the day, competitions at any level still needs to put safety at the forefront. People might not like it, because in the past people just got on with anything, but there’s no place for it nowadays and it gives equestrianism a bad name. Need to figure out a way to make a high level course difficult without making it dangerous enough to kill three horses.