And...we have a positive PSSM type 2 test. We are n/px

[ycbm]

I think in recent history we are used to the genetics/ID of variants coming after the symptoms have been well characterised/classified and then working backwards from them to ‘find the gene for’ Whereas some of the pssm stuff is now working the other way round.

Which is really not helpful when many of the symptoms for the disease can arise from such a myriad of other causes. Spooking in a 4 year old being a good example.
.

 

[stangs]

I'm sorry to say but I doubt this is an incipient "habit" it is far more likely to be a 4 yo very large framed horse who has had endless disruption over the last 6 months, has only been with you for 4 weeks, simply doesn't trust you yet and who is doing far too much. Try looking at it that rather than the horse having acquired a "habit" she is simply scared, very inexperienced and needs some training which appears to be sadly lacking. That is training to give her confidence, gain her trust and to get her to listen to you,

This.

Surely if the recent explosive behaviour was PSSM, there should have been telltale signs from the minute you started riding her?

The timeline to me is more: young horse arrives in new place and only a few days later is already being taken out to dressage clinics, etc. Lots of stressors (the journey from Ireland, being around strange horses, new rider and routine, etc.) so it's too much to process and she shuts down. Then, over time, she starts finding her feet with the new routine and only then does she feel secure enough to express her stress, hence the new behaviour.

Wouldn't be the first horse I've known to have a 'honeymoon period', where they don't resist anything because they have no clue what's going on, and then a deterioration in behaviour 2-4 weeks after arrival.

 

[ester]

It's even weirder, they've taken a suspected human gene region and then applied it to a horse.

Nearly as good as autistic mice

 

[SEL]

It's even weirder, they've taken a suspected human gene region and then applied it to a horse.

I never got an answer from Equiseq how the K1 gene which appears to be pretty catastrophic in humans (wheelchair and v short life expectancy) cannot be tested via biopsy. It can in humans - I checked.

I know a horse who tested positive for K1 who turned out to have another issue and is in daily work. If that gene worked in the same way that it did in humans there is no way a 12yo mare could be schooling at the level she does.

 

[shortstuff99]

Nearly as good as autistic mice

I know someone whoe worked on an "autistic mouse" project, and their definition for whether a mouse had autism was if it displayed a stereotype behaviour...

 

[Time for Tea]

I know nothing about PSSM but I am so sorry for your worries OP.

 

[TheMule]

3. I was querying why so many people were jumping on the "sell it" bandwagon without knowing what is going on with the horse, given the number of threads on here where people object to sellers selling horses with undisclosed issues.

Because when you have it in the back of your mind that there is something wrong with the horse it eats you up- every little thing that happens makes you over-think and question if you’re doing the right thing. The OP has now had 2 significant falls from the horse and is obviously starting to question the root of her behaviour (which, as many have pointed out, is most likely to just be a big young horse that has been a bit unsettled by what has happened to it in the past few weeks)

I personally don’t see the result of an unreliable, unproven genetic test to count as ‘an undisclosed issue’.

 

[Rowreach]

Because when you have it in the back of your mind that there is something wrong with the horse it eats you up- every little thing that happens makes you over-think and question if you’re doing the right thing. The OP has now had 2 significant falls from the horse and is obviously starting to question the root of her behaviour (which, as many have pointed out, is most likely to just be a big young horse that has been a bit unsettled by what has happened to it in the past few weeks)

I personally don’t see the result of an unreliable, unproven genetic test to count as ‘an undisclosed issue’.

Ok. But say, for the sake of argument, it does. You all think selling a horse and not declaring that you have had the test done is ok?

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Unlikely is not the same as impossible. Regardless whether or not her recent problems genuinely are caused by something related to this test result, it must be very worrisome, and stressful for you @catembi . It's understandable if you at the moment think that things won't end well, that you will need yet another horse only some years from now, how will that be feasible etc etc. Please try to remember that there's also a possibility that things will end up better than what you think at the moment. So there's no rush to make definite decisions or plans today.

Take care of, and be kind to yourself.

 

[Clodagh]

Ok. But say, for the sake of argument, it does. You all think selling a horse and not declaring that you have had the test done is ok?

I’m undecided but I gather it’s a completely unproven test that means nothing, so I’m not sure whether you’d have to disclose it.
Where is it in the possible future issue scale? I do t know.
I think the mare would just be better off in another home and Catembi would be better off without another horse that she can’t ride.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Whilst being terribly sorry this has happened to OP, I do wonder what exactly has happened, if anything of concern. I do not say that to cause offence or question your riding skill or horse husbandry at all. To me any behaviour described, as so many have said, is a typical reaction to a very young horse being over faced in almost every aspect of its recent history. I apologise if I have got this wrong but is it correct that you had this horse tested almost as soon as it landed at your yard? Understandable I guess if you believe your previous 6 horses all had this serious health issue.

But surely doing that so soon before any sign of a problem has subconsciously set yourself up to expect problems, your horse won't be the first or the last to pick up on your negative expectations. Who hasn't thought, especially with a young inexperienced horse 'Damn I hope X won't be a total arse and try and dump me when I go past that awful dog at Farmer Brown's gateway' And there we go, X already pumping himself up for an explosion before I have taken breath from the negative thought.

I have no knowledge of this particular test you are relying on, but can only say I would call it highly unethical to now sell on a horse that you as the seller, truly believe that this test is accurate and the horse has a lifetime of problems ahead of it. Would you disclose this and would it be reflected in the price you would be asking? I know you haven't suggested this yourself Catembi, but I am rather surprised how many do think this would be an Ok thing to do. Even if many of us aren't so sure this test is accurate.

 

[ycbm]

Ok. But say, for the sake of argument, it does. You all think selling a horse and not declaring that you have had the test done is ok?

Outside of a certain group, which by no means includes all people with known or believed PSSM 2 horses, the test is completely disregarded. I'd be happy to disclose it and would expect most buyers to ignore it, in line with current veterinary advice. Provided always that the horse is showing no symptoms that don't fit with a young unsettled sports bred horse.

The most risky thing for this young mare now is to continue to be ridden by someone who has lost confidence in her. Confidence is everything at this stage, as you'll know. They suck it out of their trainer when they're babies, if they don't have enough of their own.
.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I don’t think it could count as a veterinary disclosure - I don’t think you would disclose it to an insurer, and it is not a veterinary condition or illness or lameness.

You could disclose it to buyers as an FYI, to be totally transparent but I don’t imagine that it would mean much to very many people.

 

[gunnergundog]

The most risky thing for this young mare now is to continue to be ridden by someone who has lost confidence in her. Confidence is everything at this stage, as you'll know. They suck it out of their trainer when they're babies, if they don't have enough of their own.
.

100%.

Fake it until you make it Catembi or get someone else in.....no pride lost, if it's what's best for both of you in the long run. Best of luck.

 

[Rowreach]

I don’t think it could count as a veterinary disclosure - I don’t think you would disclose it to an insurer, and it is not a veterinary condition or illness or lameness.

You could disclose it to buyers as an FYI, to be totally transparent but I don’t imagine that it would mean much to very many people.

Fortunately (for horses at least) muscle myopathies are indeed being taken seriously by veterinary professionals and more vets are now educating themselves better and testing for issues.

 

[HeresHoping]

@catembi I just wanted to offer my sympathy, actually.

I've been there... it's horrible when you lose your bottle and it's hard to admit to yourself, let alone others, that a couple of falls have dislodged your confidence a little bit, and you're worried that a bit more behaviour like that will mean the end.

Go back far enough on here and you'll find one of my earliest questions was about a broncking TB - ex PtPer. That horse broncked out on a hack two weeks after I got him, and I put it down to too many things going on around him (cars, children, etc.). I thought 'ooo, that's a long way to the ground' before I thought 'that's a bit of an extreme reaction to what's going on around him'. Unlike yours, he wasn't a baby, he'd been out and done things with his previous owner. He was 9. Then he broncked after a jump. Proper bronked. For probably about a minute and a half but it felt like an hour. I didn't dare fall off because I had seen the look in his eye - it wasn't panic, it was aggression. When he finally stopped my legs were shaking so much I couldn't walk for about 30 minutes. I was absolutely terrified of getting on him after that. Me. The fearless woman who had 'difficult' rides coming out of her ears. The woman who had competed at an International event when roads and tracks were still a thing. I shook like a leaf just putting his tack on after that. It transpired that actually - after he was given a fast ticket skywards after he started to come out of the stable waving his feet and teeth in my face - he was in agony. He'd fractured his pelvis and his joints were hanging together by string. Poor boy. And yes, he'd passed a vetting before I'd bought him. That's NOT to say your girl - whom I'd have in a heartbeat - is in pain.

My next horse, the one in my avatar, broke in front of me. I watched it happen. But that's not the point. The point is, I still wasn't confident when I bought him and I spent the 3 months before he broke trying to find my nerve. Pretending every second that I was fine. For the first time in my life I was pleased to go away on holiday and leave someone else to exercise my horse. I turned down rides left, right and centre. Everyone kept asking if I was okay. And I, being a bit neurospicy myself, kept thinking they were whispering behind my back that I'd lost it. I would analyse every tiny step out of place that poor big chestnut goof made and put it down to some sort of pain or something. The truth was, I was probably giving off 'I'm tense and terrified vibes' in their 1000s. Then he broke in a field accident and part of me was relieved.

I was offered other rides. I turned them down. I became a master at excuses.

It took a little overgrown Connie - an ex-broodmare with a mischievous streak to put my confidence back together. I turned her down first, too. But she came back to the yard one day without her owner, so I hopped on to go and find her and that was the start of a wonderful love affair and a return to what I call proper riding. I haven't ridden since I lost her - but I rode loads of others while I had her.

So, it's okay to ask for an oh f*ck strap. It's okay to feel a little less than 100%. It's okay to say 'actually, I'm just going to throw you in a field for a bit while I play with something a little more leg at each corner'. It's okay to say 'I don't need to do everything today.'

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Fortunately (for horses at least) muscle myopathies are indeed being taken seriously by veterinary professionals and more vets are now educating themselves better and testing for issues.

It’s not about not taking muscle myopathy seriously.

Muscle myopathies are not the same thing as a genetic variant being present. If the horse had myopathy, that would be different - it would be a diagnosable illness or condition.

Merely being tested privately for a gene variant in an unproven test, in which the variant doesn’t have any proven link to an illness, and not having an illness present wouldn’t meet any threshold which would warrant notification to an insurer or as part of vet history.

 

[nutjob]

Fortunately (for horses at least) muscle myopathies are indeed being taken seriously by veterinary professionals and more vets are now educating themselves better and testing for issues.

I had one which I thought had a muscle myopathy and my vet was very switched on about it. She didn't advise the equisec test though. If OP has had 7 test positive using the equisec test it would be interesting to know which of these had a muscle biopsy also or if diagnosis for all 7 relied only on this test. In addition what other veterinary investigations were done to exclude other problems.

The behaviour described can be from a multitude of things, it sounds very similar to my horse which had DSLD/ESPA. Equally my ISH whose backing process in Ireland involved lobbing on some badly fitting tack and a lad whose riding style was very different to mine about 6 times, had for a long time a very sharp spook / spin / buck. If I'd been more experienced I would have had him completely restarted instead of persevering with massive gaps in his education.

Other investigators have tried and failed to validate this test so whilst there are a large no. of people who will believe in it whatever the scientific evidence, for other people it's like a leap of faith to far rely on it.

 

[ycbm]

Fortunately (for horses at least) muscle myopathies are indeed being taken seriously by veterinary professionals and more vets are now educating themselves better and testing for issues.

You're right, it's really good that vets are waking up to these issues. The tests don't include the PSSM2 gene tests, though. PSSM 1 hair root test is unequivocal. For PSSM 2, elevated muscle enzymes in blood, biopsy of abnormal muscle, response to known management techniques (food, exercise, vitamin E, protein, amino acids) are used in a diagnosis of PSSM 2.

Is there a vet anywhere who uses the DNA test against the advice of his own professional body?
.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Merely being tested privately for a gene variant in an unproven test, in which the variant doesn’t have any proven link to an illness, and not having an illness present wouldn’t meet any threshold which would warrant notification to an insurer or as part of vet history.

Legally no of course it wouldn't. Morally however to the prospective buyer is another matter altogether IMHO. If it is such a minor thing to declare to a possible buyer then do so. I wonder how many people would just dismiss that information and go ahead with the purchase at the original asking price.

 

[Tiddlypom]

PSSM2 is a recognised condition, but as far as I know a diagnosis that a vet would accept has not been updated from the below. All three factors must be confirmed if a horse is to be diagnosed with PSSM2.

1. Symptoms of a muscle myopathy.
2. A -ve hair test for PSSM1.
3. A +ve muscle biopsy.

I do not believe that the test that the OP has been using is regarded at being a definitive diagnosis of PSSM2. It didn’t used to be. The test is certainly, at the least, controversial.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Legally no of course it wouldn't. Morally however to the prospective buyer is another matter altogether IMHO. If it is such a minor thing to declare to a possible buyer then do so. I wonder how many people would just dismiss that information and go ahead with the purchase at the original asking price.

Yes, as I said, you could do it to be transparent, as an FYI.

I’m sure a lot of people would use any opportunity to haggle, but the seller will have elected to look under this particular rock so ought to be expecting these sorts of consequences.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

PSSM2 is a recognised condition, but as far as I know a diagnosis that a vet would accept has not been updated from the below. All three factors must be confirmed if a horse is to be diagnosed with PSSM2.

1. Symptoms of a muscle myopathy.
2. A -ve hair test for PSSM1.
3. A +ve muscle biopsy.

I do not believe that the test that the OP has been using is regarded at being a definitive diagnosis of PSSM2. It didn’t used to be. The test is certainly, at the least, controversial.

This ^

And in that case, definitely requires disclosure to insurers, and ought to be disclosed to potential buyers.

 

[quizzie]

PSSM2 is a recognised condition, but as far as I know a diagnosis that a vet would accept has not been updated from the below. All three factors must be confirmed if a horse is to be diagnosed with PSSM2.

1. Symptoms of a muscle myopathy.
2. A -ve hair test for PSSM1.
3. A +ve muscle biopsy.

I do not believe that the test that the OP has been using is regarded at being a definitive diagnosis of PSSM2. It didn’t used to be. The test is certainly, at the least, controversial.

As ever...it isn't quite that simple!

PSSM2 is a diagnosis that lumps together several known different (and probably several uncategorised versions) muscle myopathies. They are beginning to be split out into their own categories, but currently tend to be lumped together as any muscle myopathy that is PSSM1 negative.

The biopsy is often considered the gold standard of diagnosis, but some of the conditions can require different staining methods to diagnose (Which may not be available in the UK at present)...plus depending on the conditions under which the biopsy is taken and transported can lead to false positives and false negatives......A minefield.

In addition, some will show high muscle enzymes, and some won't....fun isn't it!

ETA : To some extent you can understand the interest in the genetic testing for other forms of PSSM beyond PSSM1....there is little certainty in the current regime.

 

[southerncomfort]

I'm not smart enough to understand genetics, but i do know I have the genetic markers for rheumatoid arthritis.

However, it was explained to me that having markers for certain conditions does not in any way mean you are certain to get it.

It's in the family genepool because my great grandmother had it, but no one else has had it, and now I'm in my fifties I'm less likely to develop it ( thank goodness!).

So simply having the gene for something is interesting info to tuck away for the future, but should largely be ignored unless symptoms appear.

Catembi - you have a lovely horse there. She is fit and well, maybe just maybe feeling a bit overwhelmed. Tuck this info away in case it's useful in the future, but don't look for symptoms because she is unlikely to ever develop pssm, and please don't let it stop you enjoying her.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Absolutely agree @southerncomfort

She is lovely looking mare @catembi and all babies are a bit daft. I really wouldn’t let this test ruin anything for you.

 

[catembi]

Yeah, I think we're going to Do Something about the hind gut and crack on. Dr Marion Otto, who is an acknowledged expert on PSSM, said on my thread in a FB group that a single px wouldn't deter her from buying a horse, which surprised me, although she knows a lot more about it than I ever will. As I have previously said, my doctorate & fellowship are in non scientific fields. I do my best to understand the science, but it also doesn't help that the science, or rather, 'science' is rather wobbly, vague & open to interpretation.

The RC clinic was specifically billed as a 'confidence building' event so that people with new babies could bond with them and potter about in a supportive, unpressured and non judgemental environment (unlike here). I will repeat that it was SPECIFICALLY FOR new partnerships and new babies. Very low key, nothing too intense, a good way for new partnerships to get to know each other. It wasn't a pre Olympic bootcamp.

Anyway, whatever, we did a great lesson tonight with an incredibly insightful trainer and all was well. She described me as 'perfectly competent' wrt bringing on a new baby, so that was nice. We will potter on our merry way in private from now on.

 

[SEL]

@catembi I'm relieved you've got a trainer on board who can hopefully help you move forward. I really, really hope this genetic test is something you can push to the back of your mind xx

 

[Michen]

We were on a intro to xc session which was telegraph poles on the ground height. We were trotting between two 'jumps' when some motorbikes with very loud exhausts roared past on the other side of the hedge, which was very near to us. She understandably panicked (it was REALLY loud & unexpected) whipped round, dumped me & ran back to the other horses. I got back on & we carried on trotting over telegraph poles in a different field away from the road.

Then a couple of days later, I was riding in my arena, she went to have a little look at a pile of jump wings while in canter, I went to push her past & she did another disproportionately large spook & dumped me off again. Probably repeating what she'd done before. I am now riding with a grab strap until we've broken this incipient 'habit'.

Did she come from Ireland I can’t remember. When Bear arrived although he seemed to settle quickly I made huge mistakes with him thinking he was fine. It accumulated in him doing some stuff that made me wonder if I should PTS and he’d ever be safe, that bad. In reality I’d just expected too much from a very sensitive, upset horse who whilst seemingly fine on the outside was not. I took him into the round pen to do some in hand work and he just trembled head to toe.

It does sound like you are doing quite a bit with jump lessons (and a camp?) etc etc, I know you know your stuff but it’s nothing to do with the height, telegraph poles or not, and everything to do with the being loaded up, new atmosphere, new rider, new questions. She’s probably ulcery, unsure, maybe a bit sore from doing stuff, anxious.

ETA saw your post on the weekend thread, if she's the only one you have ridden and it's her doing the WT test plus maybe boxing to a friends I really think you may be overcooking her... but I apologise if that's another horse and will wind my neck in Either way I hope she comes good, she looks a lovely sort and I'm sure if you get the basics sorted she will pay you back in spades over the years.

 

[Patterdale]

If I got a ridden horse from Ireland it would get a course of omeprazole and a month in the field to take a breath.
Might this be an option for yours?