And...we have a positive PSSM type 2 test. We are n/px

[Michen]

If I got a ridden horse from Ireland it would get a course of omeprazole and a month in the field to take a breath.
Might this be an option for yours?

Wish I’d done that with Bear it would have saved a whole load of stress lol. Luckily a few months of ground work and long reining all over Hampshire had him come good.

It’s so much more common here in the USA I’ve found to treat horses with omeprazole whenever they’ve done a long journey, been uprooted, shows etc. I suppose because horses are so regularly transported across states and for long periods of time. There’s more of an assumption that they will likely have developed ulcers, so people just treated rather than waiting for signs to show and going down the scoping route.

I’m sure there’s plenty of reasons why this is wrong but given omeprazole is a safe drug it’s definitely something I’ll be doing in future!

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I’m not going to lie I’m very sceptical of all this. I read up on it when suddenly all Welsh Ds had PSSM2/MIM. I read through the extremely extensive list of symptoms and realised that every horse I’ve ever had whether it had a drop of Welsh blood in it or not could have been positive for a version of PSSM2/MIM.

If everytime Faran played up I thought he had it then I’d have lost my mind two years ago when this all blew up and this ‘test’ became available. I mean I’ve had people look at Faran and say his lami was due to ems/metabolic issues, he tested negative across the board for all tests, his was concussion lami, coupled with poorly balanced feet made him very lame.

I’ll always now manage him for Lami but it’s easy to jump to conclusions when symptoms are as broad for things. I hope you can get this out of your mind and just manage this young horse as a young horse and gain a bond. I know how hard it is to get things out of your mind. I’m constantly looking for Faran to be lame just now but he’s as sound as a pound so rolling with it and clamping down on my crazy manic anxiety/overthinking/10 steps ahead brain.

 

[maya2008]

Get a muscle biopsy done if you are worried. If that says there are no symptoms as yet, ride and enjoy. Or sell if you can’t live with the unexploded bomb in the future.

And next time you buy a horse, get it tested first!

 

[Patterdale]

Wish I’d done that with Bear it would have saved a whole load of stress lol. Luckily a few months of ground work and long reining all over Hampshire had him come good.

It’s so much more common here in the USA I’ve found to treat horses with omeprazole whenever they’ve done a long journey, been uprooted, shows etc. I suppose because horses are so regularly transported across states and for long periods of time. There’s more of an assumption that they will likely have developed ulcers, so people just treated rather than waiting for signs to show and going down the scoping route.

I’m sure there’s plenty of reasons why this is wrong but given omeprazole is a safe drug it’s definitely something I’ll be doing in future!

I give out omeprazole like sweeties, they get it at stay away shows or camps, if been lame, if new to us/had upheaval.
This was learned the hard way, similar to your Bear situation. Wondering why my new 4 year old from Ireland had a total personality transplant 4 weeks after arrival…..then a friend pointed out how much ‘low key’ stuff I’d done in that 4 weeks and wtf did I expect

 

[SEL]

Get a muscle biopsy done if you are worried. If that says there are no symptoms as yet, ride and enjoy. Or sell if you can’t live with the unexploded bomb in the future.

And next time you buy a horse, get it tested first!

Sellers won't wait 4 weeks for testing - especially not for a test that UK vets are sceptical of

 

[ycbm]

Wish I’d done that with Bear it would have saved a whole load of stress lol. Luckily a few months of ground work and long reining all over Hampshire had him come good.

It’s so much more common here in the USA I’ve found to treat horses with omeprazole whenever they’ve done a long journey, been uprooted, shows etc. I suppose because horses are so regularly transported across states and for long periods of time. There’s more of an assumption that they will likely have developed ulcers, so people just treated rather than waiting for signs to show and going down the scoping route.

I’m sure there’s plenty of reasons why this is wrong but given omeprazole is a safe drug it’s definitely something I’ll be doing in future!

It's not wrong and as long as you buy your omeprazole from a vet or a chemist (otc, no prescription in small amounts) it's legal. But aloe vera does the same thing and it's cheap as chips.

For years now, since @Pearlsasinger recommended it, I've given aloe over any stressful period.
.

 

[ycbm]

Get a muscle biopsy done if you are worried. If that says there are no symptoms as yet, ride and enjoy. Or sell if you can’t live with the unexploded bomb in the future.

And next time you buy a horse, get it tested first!

If I was a seller I wouldn't let anyone test. The test doesn't do what it claims to do, and there's no way I would livery the horse free for you while you wait for the result a month later and then possibly turn the horse down because it's positive. If the test came back in days I still wouldn't let you test. It proves nothing and you might leave me with a horse which has now "failed the vet" and is back up for sale with doubts raised over it.
.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I'm glad you had a good lesson with her I would just take it slow maybe just do stuff at home for a while.

The motor bike incident is totally understandable most horses would have reacted to it, we get a few idiots on them whizzing up our lane and my 2 come galloping up the field and they are 19 and 20 years old.

If I were on them I would be in trouble and I don't ride out if I can hear them around.

 

[poiuytrewq]

This may be a really stupid suggestion and an obvious no but, I’ll just chuck it in here anyway!
Could there be an environmental factors? Either in the fact the horses have PSSM or test positive for it.
Near me there was a big thing of horses becoming sick in a certain relatively small area.
They all had very high liver enzymes and some got very ill, others appeared ok but got tested anyway. All had the same results.
Once moved out of the area they got well and results returned to normal.
My own horses had been on that land with no symptoms and no reason for me to test for anything so I never did, but who knows, maybe they would have all tested the same aswell.

Another example, since being here I’ve had so many cases of laminitis. (Including a TB and other non stereotype examples) Having previously never had to deal with one in my life. We moved from old low lying cow pasture so thick rich green grass to fields here we seeded ourselves with proper low sugar horse and pony mix- if it were the other way round I’d understand but it’s always in the back of my mind that something here causes inflammation

Dunno, as I say I may and probably am way out but is it a remote possibility?

 

[nutjob]

Could there be an environmental factors? Either in the fact the horses have PSSM or test positive for it.

There is no environmental factor in DNA testing which is what is done at equisec. The horse will be born with this DNA and have it for life. The question is, if your horse tests positive for a range of genes does it have PSSM in any form. That is open to debate and has not been proven. It is also unproven what percentage of horses in the general population have these genes but are perfectly healthy. OP has tested 7 and has 7 positives. We could all send our horses tail hair in and find that 95% of all horses test positive based on this test - but of course not all of these animals will ever have symptoms. There are also symptomatic horses which test negative.

OP has had a wide range of horses tested and has lived in different areas. If all the 7 positive horses had vet work up data as well then it would be a very interesting data set to support the testing or not. I spent quite a lot of time looking into it as my horse had random symptoms and the first vet who saw him was clueless, now known to be a wobbler. I do think if a hair test was conclusive like the PSSM1 test this would be great for horse owners but in this case its not in the companies interest to try to validate the test as it has a huge following of people who believe in it regardless and another failure to confirm the accuracy would damage their business.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Ah ok. I didn’t know it was genetic. I thought it developed later on.

 

[ycbm]

Ah ok. I didn’t know it was genetic. I thought it developed later on.

It's probably both, but the right gene or gene combination hasn't yet been found.

IMO it's very likely that when it is found, there will be environmental triggers as well.

They know some genes for human schizophrenia, but in identical twins who both have those genes, it's normal for only one of them to develop schizophrenia. The suggestion there is strong that there's an environmental trigger.

It's similar with a lot of diseases in humans. The breast cancer gene is well known and a huge risk, but even so it doesn't guarantee you'll get breast cancer.
.

 

[NR88]

The OP has been asked several times over the years if they have tested their soil, grazing and forage.

An assumption would be that all seven horses presented as healthy when viewed, tried and vetted or would not have been bought. Therefore the symptoms only present once they are on the OP's yard.

New owners of the PSSM horses that the OP sold have posted on here after finding old threads with the horse's names. The new owners reported that their horses were healthy and functioning normally.

I would be thoroughly investigating what was happening when they arrived on my yard to trigger changes in so many consecutive horses.

 

[nutjob]

An assumption would be that all seven horses presented as healthy when viewed, tried and vetted or would not have been bought. Therefore the symptoms only present once they are on the OP's yard.

This is not a correct assumption, the most recent one definitely arrived from Ireland unseen as I believe is the case for others but OP would need to comment how many seen, how many vetted etc..

 

[IrishMilo]

I admire you for cracking on @catembi. It's nerve wracking at the best of times but particularly with a new young horse. That being said, this is one of those situations where you can probably assume if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...

Young, green horse just had her whole life uprooted, probably had tack chucked on and ridden away as fast as possible in Ireland. I'd put zero emphasis on the 'diagnosis' for now... all that's really happened is she's spooked twice (which is not downplaying you falling off, but just taking a pragmatic view for a second!) - you really can't NOT expect that of any horse, let alone a youngster.

I'd personally get a really decent local trainer to come to yours twice a week to ride her for a little while before she becomes aware of how easy it is to deck someone!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

The OP has been asked several times over the years if they have tested their soil, grazing and forage.

An assumption would be that all seven horses presented as healthy when viewed, tried and vetted or would not have been bought. Therefore the symptoms only present once they are on the OP's yard.

New owners of the PSSM horses that the OP sold have posted on here after finding old threads with the horse's names. The new owners reported that their horses were healthy and functioning normally.

I would be thoroughly investigating what was happening when they arrived on my yard to trigger changes in so many consecutive horses.

This is not a correct assumption, the most recent one definitely arrived from Ireland unseen as I believe is the case for others but OP would need to comment how many seen, how many vetted etc..

Perhaps it might be best if we leave it to Catembi to furnish more detail on her horse buying history, if she feels it is necessary or would help her get the correct advice in any way. I am trying very hard not to be critical as of course we will all post our own opinions as would be expected with this type of thread, but I for one do not feel comfortable with discussing such detail of Catembi's buying history if she hasn't brought that up herself. Ducks for cover.

 

[shortstuff99]

There is no environmental factor in DNA testing which is what is done at equisec. The horse will be born with this DNA and have it for life. The question is, if your horse tests positive for a range of genes does it have PSSM in any form. That is open to debate and has not been proven. It is also unproven what percentage of horses in the general population have these genes but are perfectly healthy. OP has tested 7 and has 7 positives. We could all send our horses tail hair in and find that 95% of all horses test positive based on this test - but of course not all of these animals will ever have symptoms. There are also symptomatic horses which test negative.

OP has had a wide range of horses tested and has lived in different areas. If all the 7 positive horses had vet work up data as well then it would be a very interesting data set to support the testing or not. I spent quite a lot of time looking into it as my horse had random symptoms and the first vet who saw him was clueless, now known to be a wobbler. I do think if a hair test was conclusive like the PSSM1 test this would be great for horse owners but in this case its not in the companies interest to try to validate the test as it has a huge following of people who believe in it regardless and another failure to confirm the accuracy would damage their business.

I'm guessing you mean here they don't take into account environment when testing for PSSM 2 not that gene expression isn't impacted by environment?

 

[nutjob]

I'm guessing you mean here they don't take into account environment when testing for PSSM 2 not that gene expression isn't impacted by environment?

Yes, they take the hair and they test it to see if there are certain genes present. They have no way to know whether the gene is expressed or not or if this expression is impacted by the environment. Some people have postulated that there is / are other genes as yet not identified which switch on these genes so the ones they test for are useful but not the be all and end all of the story. They look for 6 different genes and depending on which is present your horse can be P2, P3, P4, Px, P8 or K1. They probably have a mountain of useful data but because it's a commercial company it's not shared, partly at least due to confidentiality issues so it's hard to be challenged by the scientific community. I also found (on fb ) that anyone suggesting a muscle biopsy instead of or as well as this testing was ridiculed and booted off the page when in fact this would help to provide important data about the validity or otherwise of the test. They do a lot of testing in the US and the results are taken by many to be facts and used to implicate blood lines as being problematic, which I do think is worrying especially if these genes are widespread.

 

[shortstuff99]

Yes, they take the hair and they test it to see if there are certain genes present. They have no way to know whether the gene is expressed or not or if this expression is impacted by the environment. Some people have postulated that there is / are other genes as yet not identified which switch on these genes so the ones they test for are useful but not the be all and end all of the story. They look for 6 different genes and depending on which is present your horse can be P2, P3, P4, Px, P8 or K1. They probably have a mountain of useful data but because it's a commercial company it's not shared, partly at least due to confidentiality issues so it's hard to be challenged by the scientific community. I also found (on fb ) that anyone suggesting a muscle biopsy instead of or as well as this testing was ridiculed and booted off the page when in fact this would help to provide important data about the validity or otherwise of the test. They do a lot of testing in the US and the results are taken by many to be facts and used to implicate blood lines as being problematic, which I do think is worrying especially if these genes are widespread.

I thought that is what you were meaning, just wanted to clarify.

People could test whether these genes were expressing via transcriptomics but that is expensive and probably not worth it unless it was for a larger scale study.

 

[Michen]

It's not wrong and as long as you buy your omeprazole from a vet or a chemist (otc, no prescription in small amounts) it's legal. But aloe vera does the same thing and it's cheap as chips.

For years now, since @Pearlsasinger recommended it, I've given aloe over any stressful period.
.

Has aloe actually been proven to heal gastric ulcers? I’d maybe use it as a preventative but I don’t know that it’s been shown to have the 24 hours plus of acid suppression that omeprazole does.

I’ve never heard a vet recommend it for actually healing ulcers.

Edited to add I found a study. Those numbers aren’t particularly encouraging IMO.

 

[Goldenstar]

The country is full of Irish horses who landed here at four and five and behaved in an explosive way .
One was my lovely H who was an ejector seat if he saw anyone lift a pole .He was lethal .
He needed time and patience to learn the job and what was required of him .
This mare or may not have this condition and may or may not become symptomatic but she certainly needs time to learn her job and she told you that you need to go slower .
I would her turnout and a mixture of walking exercise ,riding and leading and pole work in hand teach her to lunge and perhaps long rein take twelve weeks and see where you are .
I know pro’s will have four year olds doing xc schooling all sorts as soon as they get them but we are not pro’s and we have luxury of time .

 

[Goldenstar]

TBH a if I bought a young horse unseen from Ireland or anywhere else I would be straight back to the beginning to understand my horse well not going out and about .
It’s inviting ending up in A and E .

 

[Pinkvboots]

Has aloe actually been proven to heal gastric ulcers? I’d maybe use it as a preventative but I don’t know that it’s been shown to have the 24 hours plus of acid suppression that omeprazole does.

I’ve never heard a vet recommend it for actually healing ulcers.

Edited to add I found a study. Those numbers aren’t particularly encouraging IMO.


View attachment 140536

I agree I wouldn't use aloe vera to cure ulcers it certainly doesn't do the same thing.

It's good for soothing the gut and maybe prevent ulcers but that's it.

 

[stangs]

Has aloe actually been proven to heal gastric ulcers? I’d maybe use it as a preventative but I don’t know that it’s been shown to have the 24 hours plus of acid suppression that omeprazole does.

I’ve never heard a vet recommend it for actually healing ulcers.

The only paper I know on the topic (Bush et al, 2017) found aloe vera ineffective compared to omeprazole; there were some improvements but small sample size and no control, so they couldn't show that the improvement was statistically significant. They write that it's possible that a higher feeding rate of aloe vera would have resulted in increased improvements, but admit that they were already feeding more than is usually recommended.

I don't think any more work has been done on it - at least, in a recent review on equine ulcers, this was all the authors had to say about aloe vera:

The inner leaf gel of the aloe vera plant has been reported to be effective in prevention and treatment of gastric ulcers in humans and other animals in experimental models (Hamman, 2008). Mechanisms of action include anti-oxidant activity, anti-inflammatory actions, cytoprotective and mucus stimulation properties, as well as the ability to regulate gastric acid production. The efficacy of aloe vera compared with omeprazole has been examined. Aloe vera was the inferior treatment, demonstrating 56% improvement in squamous ulcer healing compared to 85% for omeprazole. However only 17% of lesions had healed completely compared with 75% for omeprazole (Bush et al, 2017). The number of horses with glandular ulcers was too small to perform meaningful statistics on. Although aloe vera was demonstrated to be inferior to omeprazole, it may have a role as an adjunctive treatment and for longer-term use.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Has aloe actually been proven to heal gastric ulcers? I’d maybe use it as a preventative but I don’t know that it’s been shown to have the 24 hours plus of acid suppression that omeprazole does.

I’ve never heard a vet recommend it for actually healing ulcers.

Edited to add I found a study. Those numbers aren’t particularly encouraging IMO.


View attachment 140536

The anecdotal evidence I hear, normally goes along the lines of 'I know it works because when I stop giving them aloe, the symptoms come back'. Which suggests to me, it helps soothe the ulcers but not heal them.

 

[Michen]

The only paper I know on the topic (Bush et al, 2017) found aloe vera ineffective compared to omeprazole; there were some improvements but small sample size and no control, so they couldn't show that the improvement was statistically significant. They write that it's possible that a higher feeding rate of aloe vera would have resulted in increased improvements, but admit that they were already feeding more than is usually recommended.

I don't think any more work has been done on it - at least, in a recent review on equine ulcers, this was all the authors had to say about aloe vera:

Yeah I think that’s the one I found and edited my post to include. I don’t think the two should be stated as being in any way comparable.

I imagine it’s similar to sucralfate and acts as a bit of a band aid.

 

[ycbm]

I did not state that aloe was comparable to omeprazole. The last time I looked there was a study which showed that aloe vera had very good effects at resolving stomach ulcers but not as effectively as omeprazole.

We weren't talking about curing ulcers we were talking about not letting them start. We were talking about a bit of stress support when a horse moves home, for example,

If aloe helps in that situation, and it has been shown to help actual ulcers, so why wouldn't it?, then I would, personally, rather give that to a horse than turn off the acid it uses to digest its food.
.

 

[Michen]

I did not state that aloe was comparable to omeprazole. The last time I looked there was a good study which showed that aloe vera had very good effects at resolving stomach ulcers but not as effectively as omeprazole.

We weren't talking about curing ulcers we were talking about not letting them start. We were talking about a bit of stress support when a horse moves home, for example,

If aloe helps in that situation, and it has been shown to help actual ulcers, so why wouldn't it?, then I would, personally, rather give that to a horse than turn off the acid it uses to digest its food.
.

I don’t mean to be inflammatory but as you said it does the same thing, so i assumed you meant acid suppression as per omeprazole. Sorry if I misunderstood.

As far as I know acid suppression is what allows ulcers to heal/continue occurring.

Whatever works though!

 

[ycbm]

I agree I wouldn't use aloe vera to cure ulcers it certainly doesn't do the same thing.

It's good for soothing the gut and maybe prevent ulcers but that's it.

Which is what I said use it for.

Has aloe actually been proven to heal gastric ulcers? I’d maybe use it as a preventative but I don’t know that it’s been shown to have the 24 hours plus of acid suppression that omeprazole

Nobody said it did. The suggestion was exactly what you say, use it as a preventative.
.

 

[ycbm]

I don’t mean to be inflammatory but you said it does the same thing, so i assumed you meant acid suppression as per omeprazole.

As far as I know acid suppression is what allows ulcers to heal/continue occurring.

Whatever works though!

What I meant was that it prevents, or seems to, ulcers from forming in stressful situations, which was what we were talking about, not acid suppression.
.