And...we have a positive PSSM type 2 test. We are n/px

[ycbm]

As far as I know acid suppression is what allows ulcers to heal/continue occurring.

That does resolve ulcers, but it doesn't mean that's the only mechanism that will work. And the standard treatment for ulcers is now two drugs, omeprazole to drop acid levels, sucralfate to coat the gut lining. I suspect aloe performs the latter function, but who knows if they don't research it, and they won't because there's no money in it.
.

 

[ycbm]

Vet overseen treatment of ulcers with aloe by a racehorse rehab unit which has so many arriving with them that they can't stomach, pun intended, the omprazole/sucralfate bill.

I wouldn't use it for this purpose, but as a preventative, definitely.

Moorcroft Equine Rehabilitation Centre - Gastric Ulcers in Horses

Many horses suffer from stomach ulcers known as gastric ulcers and they can really affect the horse's weight, condition, general health. At the Moorcroft Equine Rehabilitation Centre we are duty bound to solve this problem long-term so the horses do not go back to suffering from this condition...

www.moorcroftracehorse.org.uk

 

[Goldenstar]

Vet overseen treatment of ulcers with aloe by a racehorse rehab unit which has so many arriving with them that they can't stomach, pun intended, the omprazole/sucralfate bill.

I wouldn't use it for this purpose, but as a preventative, definitely.

Moorcroft Equine Rehabilitation Centre - Gastric Ulcers in Horses

Many horses suffer from stomach ulcers known as gastric ulcers and they can really affect the horse's weight, condition, general health. At the Moorcroft Equine Rehabilitation Centre we are duty bound to solve this problem long-term so the horses do not go back to suffering from this condition...

www.moorcroftracehorse.org.uk

It does not prove causation , the horses have a complete lifestyle change , turnout, ad-lib forage different approach to work.

 

[I'm Dun]

esomeprazole works as well as if not better than vet prescribed medication and a months worth costs about £30 from one of the cheap online pharmacies, so there's no need to be messing about with aloe vera. Theres lots of research out there saying this if anyone wants to look it up/

 

[SEL]

esomeprazole works as well as if not better than vet prescribed medication and a months worth costs about £30 from one of the cheap online pharmacies, so there's no need to be messing about with aloe vera. Theres lots of research out there saying this if anyone wants to look it up/

that's what I use!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

esomeprazole works as well as if not better than vet prescribed medication and a months worth costs about £30 from one of the cheap online pharmacies, so there's no need to be messing about with aloe vera. Theres lots of research out there saying this if anyone wants to look it up/

It does work well for many. I tried it, in the proper dosage with one of mine, and it didn't do much. I didn't scope him before, but did afterward and he had grade 3 ulcers. Switched to omeprazole, he scoped clean, and then didn't have any signs or symptoms again. I did keep him on a supportive supplement. With that one, I genuinely felt like it was stress due to a variety of changes. It was a sh*tty time.

That's an example of 1 though. There is research out there, and I've seen success with it. Just not with that one horse, for whatever reason. If budget is an issue, it's definitely a good option.

 

[ycbm]

It does not prove causation , the horses have a complete lifestyle change , turnout, ad-lib forage different approach to work.

True. But isn't it funny that people who use illegally imported Abler omeprazole or unlicensed-in-horses esomeprazole without scoping who say it worked because their horse's behaviour changed are believed, yet those who say the same of aloe vera aren't?

For anyone who does think it helps, aloe vera is £35 for 5 litres from ebay from a horse supplier and the dose rate I use is 50ml in each of 2 feeds for high stress situations (home move) and 50ml a day for lower stress (first trips out, unavoidable changes in food).

This is for prevention, not cure, for a guarantee of a cure you need a vet with a scope.
.

 

[I'm Dun]

True. But isn't it funny that people who use illegally imported Abler omeprazole or unlicensed-in-horses esomeprazole without scoping who say it worked because their horse's behaviour changed are believed, yet those who say the same of aloe vera aren't?

For anyone who does think it helps, aloe vera is £35 for 5 litres from ebay from a horse supplier and the dose rate I use is 50ml in each of 2 feeds for high stress situations (home move) and 50ml a day for lower stress (first trips out, unavoidable changes in food).

This is for prevention, not cure, for a guarantee of a cure you need a vet with a scope.
.

Theres a fair amount of research backing up the use of esomeprazole, so its not anecdotal.

A single dose of 0.5 mg/kg esomeprazole effectively suppressed acid in eight out of nine horses for 16 h. Direct comparisons have not been performed, but these studies suggest esomeprazole has a superior acid-suppressive effect to omeprazole.

https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evj.13997#:~:text=A%20single%20dose%20of%200.5,nine%20horses%20for%2016%20h.&text=Direct%20comparisons%20have%20not%20been,acid%2Dsuppressive%20effect%20to%20omeprazole.

 

[ycbm]

Theres a fair amount of research backing up the use of esomeprazole, so its not anecdotal.

https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evj.13997#:~:text=A%20single%20dose%20of%200.5,nine%20horses%20for%2016%20h.&text=Direct%20comparisons%20have%20not%20been,acid%2Dsuppressive%20effect%20to%20omeprazole.

I didn't say it was anecdotal.

But it is off licence for use in horses and although it's legal to use personally (but not for a vet who must use the licenced drug), at that dose rate you have to buy enough for 300mg a day for a 600kg horse. That's 150 human tablets a day. That costs over £100 a day from the cheapest sources on eBay, I've just checked. It would be cheaper to get the vet to treat with licenced drugs.
.

 

[AmyMay]

Ok. But say, for the sake of argument, it does. You all think selling a horse and not declaring that you have had the test done is ok?

As the test seems to mean bugger all, what would be the point of declaring it?

OP, turn her away for a month. Pick up and start again slowly.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I didn't say it was anecdotal.

But it is off licence for use in horses and although it's legal to use personally (but not for a vet who must use the licenced drug), at that dose rate you have to buy enough for 300mg a day for a 600kg horse. That's 150 human tablets a day. That costs over £100 a day from the cheapest sources on eBay, I've just checked. It would be cheaper to get the vet to treat with licenced drugs.
.

That's not right. You do not have to give that much.

 

[Goldenstar]

True. But isn't it funny that people who use illegally imported Abler omeprazole or unlicensed-in-horses esomeprazole without scoping who say it worked because their horse's behaviour changed are believed, yet those who say the same of aloe vera aren't?

For anyone who does think it helps, aloe vera is £35 for 5 litres from ebay from a horse supplier and the dose rate I use is 50ml in each of 2 feeds for high stress situations (home move) and 50ml a day for lower stress (first trips out, unavoidable changes in food).

This is for prevention, not cure, for a guarantee of a cure you need a vet with a scope.
.

I really see no link between the two at all nothing is proven where the horse had all the things management wise that improve gastric health.
It’s just as likely it was the hay and the removal of high energy concentrate from the horses diet


I would not be at all suprised that unlicensed forms of proton pump inhibitors work
Aloe vera is a herbal remedy you no idea much to use or what standardisation there is on products .
It may or may not help OP ‘s but then turnout and a slower approach is as likely to work .

 

[Michen]

FDA approved omeprazole for horses isn’t even always a prescription drug in the USA depending on what you buy. And there’s all sorts of compounded versions available with a script, it’s the same drug as GG, only the delivery method/coating may or may not be as good.

I don’t think it’s therefore unreasonable that people have had good success with things like abler or whatnot. Even if the coating isn’t quite as good as GG, it’s still the same drug, so likely to help somewhat.

Anyhoo, each to their own and actually I like the idea of aloe ycbm, I might try Bog on that!

 

[ycbm]

That's not right. You do not have to give that much.

It's what is stated in the official research that was quoted. If you gave less than that will probably be why it didn't work in your horse.
.

 

[Rowreach]

As the test seems to mean bugger all, what would be the point of declaring it?

OP, turn her away for a month. Pick up and start again slowly.

Transparency? I can't see how it differs from not declaring all sorts of things, tested or not, that seem often to appear after purchase and cause all sorts of outrage on here every day, but conversely it is evident from this thread that lots of you think it's fine to sell a horse and keep quiet about things you believe are issues.  If I had tested a horse for something I was concerned about, then  I would be honest enough to declare it.

If the OK has any sense, she won't be reading this thread any more.

 

[catembi]

I have been trying to stay away from the thread and will avoid starting any more when distressed in future for the sake of my sanity and self worth.

I have been busy researching. There is so much conflicting information. A leading German PSSM expert said that n/px wouldn’t stop her buying a horse. Apparently there is a manganese blood test…if you are under 1.7 then the px is unlikely to be problematic. An article by a British expert says that px magnifies the other variants, so if the horse has no other variants, you’re okay…but goes on to say that there are very likely other variants that haven’t been discovered yet. So the horse could have ‘p5’ variant which is being magnified, but you wouldn’t know why the horse was symptomatic as ‘p5’ doesn’t have a test yet. So it would look like px being symptomatic on its own. And someone contacted me from NX to say to be very careful as in her experience all px horses are explosive and dangerous.

We have the odd symptom or two which I am not going to list which have made me think, h’mm, based on my previous experience, so there is my own empirical evidence which might be unscientific but which doesn’t count for nothing either.

I post what I have found not because I think I am right or because I have an axe to grind but because I am sharing what I have gleaned in my continuing journey towards The Truth in case it helps anyone else. As I have said, my doctorate and fellowship are NOT science based, so I can only do my best, bumbling along trying to understand what I read. The Truth does not appear to be out there atm.

Anyway, horsey came 3rd with 71.7% in a walk trot test yesterday. We have started on EquiNectar and I am signing up for a groundwork course. We will trundle onwards and I will do what I think is best for me and for my horse.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Lots of useful and sensible advice on here on how to proceed from those who have imported hot housed young Irish horses.

The OP is cracking on undaunted taking her just imported just 4yo out to parties .

 

[I'm Dun]

I didn't say it was anecdotal.

But it is off licence for use in horses and although it's legal to use personally (but not for a vet who must use the licenced drug), at that dose rate you have to buy enough for 300mg a day for a 600kg horse. That's 150 human tablets a day. That costs over £100 a day from the cheapest sources on eBay, I've just checked. It would be cheaper to get the vet to treat with licenced drugs.
.

Theres other papers that give the dose at 60mgs a day which is 3 tablets, maybe 4 from memory. It worked at out £30 ish a month when I used it last time. It makes it a viable alternative for anyone not insured or who can fund a scope but not 2k of gastroguard.

Edited again, to say my vet knew I was using it, what dose etc and was fine with it, although it was only discussed unofficially as obviously they cant suggest or condone its use.

 

[Murphy88]

I haven't read all of the replies here, however as a vet specializing in equine medicine - the only diagnostic test for type 2 PSSM is muscle biopsy. Anything else is a waste of time and money. The so called genetic tests being offered for PSSM 2 are not validated in any way and the companies offering these tests have not been able to provide any evidence - in fact, the proper research into these tests has all shown that they are useless. If the tests worked, surely it would be in the companies interest to validate them with peer-reviewed research, so the fact they haven't bothered with it says it all. The best source of information is from Stephanie Valberg, who is the foremost expert on equine muscle disorders.

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy Type 2 - Kentucky Equine Research

ker.com

This is from her website:
"We found no statistical association between any of the P test variants, or combinations of P test variants, and the presence of either PSSM2 or MFM considered as one diagnosis, or when PSSM2 or MFM were considered separately. Healthy control horses were as likely to possess a P2, P3 or P4 variant as a horse with PSSM2 or MFM. By chance alone, 29% of Warmbloods and 25% of Arabians will have at least one P variant regardless of whether they have a muscle disease or not."

Re ulcers - current research shows that esomeprazole is at least comparable if not slightly better than omeprazole in some cases, with more consistent acid suppression. I am now using it (and finding it effective) particularly in racehorses where the horse's management is not helpful to ulcer management. Aloe vera is basically the only "supplement" with even a hint of research behind it, and it is the only thing I recommend for owners who want a supplement to try and prevent ulcer re-occurence. The trouble with abler etc and the other omeprazole products is not the drug itself but the delivery method ie the enteric coating. Omeprazole isn't acting directly on the stomach but rather is absorbed in the small intestine and then acts on the proton pumps to acid suppress. Gastrogard and the newer licensed veterinary omeprazole products have the coating that means the omeprazole makes it to the small intestine, many of the compounded products are broken down in the stomach and have been shown not to reach suitable levels in the bloodstream in order to acid suppress, or in the case of abler, abprazole etc the FDA has multiple times warned them for not having the correct amount of drug in.

"The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has issued nine warning letters to companies marketing unapproved animal drugs containing omeprazole. These products have not been reviewed by the FDA for safety and effectiveness. FDA testing also revealed that several of these products contained higher or lower levels of omeprazole than stated on their labels, ranging from as little as 36.3% to as much as 135% of the level claimed on the label."

 

[ycbm]

Theres other papers that give the dose at 60mgs a day which is 3 tablets, maybe 4 from memory. It worked at out £30 ish a month when I used it last time. It makes it a viable alternative for anyone not insured or who can fund a scope but not 2k of gastroguard.

60mg compared with 150mg? And omeprazole at 240mg for a 600kg hours. Can you find the paper on that. It's very frustrating that the commercial constraints of the drug licencing system prevents cheaper drugs from being licenced.
.

 

[ycbm]

current research shows that esomeprazole is at least comparable if not slightly better than omeprazole in some cases, with more consistent acid suppression. I am now using it (and finding it effective)

Can you tell us what dose rate?
.

 

[ycbm]

Lots of useful and sensible advice on here on how to proceed from those who have imported hot housed young Irish horses.

The OP is cracking on undaunted taking her just imported just 4yo out to parties .

Going back to the topic the thread is supposed to be about, apologies for the ulcer derailment, I sincerely hope she is not hurt by further falls, and that the horse settles and is happy.
.

 

[Murphy88]

Can you tell us what dose rate?
.

For treating active ulcers then esomeprazole 2mg/kg once daily, and for maintenance / prevention in racehorses then 0.5mg/kg. Both omeprazole and esomeprazole work best on empty stomachs / less forage, so there are studies showing decent ulcer healing with 0.5mg/kg for horses on high grain / low forage diets. It is also quite horse dependent - 4mg/kg is the standard dose for omeprazole, but there are studies showing that 2mg/kg or even lower might work for some horses. The trouble is you don't know if your horse will be that one so we standardly treat at 4mg/kg and then use 1mg/kg for prevention.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It's what is stated in the official research that was quoted. If you gave less than that will probably be why it didn't work in your horse.
.

Could be, could not be. I know that it's worked for other horses in the dose that I gave. It was also in a study.

 

[poiuytrewq]

For treating active ulcers then esomeprazole 2mg/kg once daily, and for maintenance / prevention in racehorses then 0.5mg/kg. Both omeprazole and esomeprazole work best on empty stomachs / less forage, so there are studies showing decent ulcer healing with 0.5mg/kg for horses on high grain / low forage diets. It is also quite horse dependent - 4mg/kg is the standard dose for omeprazole, but there are studies showing that 2mg/kg or even lower might work for some horses. The trouble is you don't know if your horse will be that one so we standardly treat at 4mg/kg and then use 1mg/kg for prevention.

Not relevant for me right now but thank you Murphy88 for posting this. Really useful. It’s been screenshotted incase!

 

[Bellaboo18]

I have been trying to stay away from the thread and will avoid starting any more when distressed in future for the sake of my sanity and self worth.

I have been busy researching. There is so much conflicting information. A leading German PSSM expert said that n/px wouldn’t stop her buying a horse. Apparently there is a manganese blood test…if you are under 1.7 then the px is unlikely to be problematic. An article by a British expert says that px magnifies the other variants, so if the horse has no other variants, you’re okay…but goes on to say that there are very likely other variants that haven’t been discovered yet. So the horse could have ‘p5’ variant which is being magnified, but you wouldn’t know why the horse was symptomatic as ‘p5’ doesn’t have a test yet. So it would look like px being symptomatic on its own. And someone contacted me from NX to say to be very careful as in her experience all px horses are explosive and dangerous.

We have the odd symptom or two which I am not going to list which have made me think, h’mm, based on my previous experience, so there is my own empirical evidence which might be unscientific but which doesn’t count for nothing either.

I post what I have found not because I think I am right or because I have an axe to grind but because I am sharing what I have gleaned in my continuing journey towards The Truth in case it helps anyone else. As I have said, my doctorate and fellowship are NOT science based, so I can only do my best, bumbling along trying to understand what I read. The Truth does not appear to be out there atm.

Anyway, horsey came 3rd with 71.7% in a walk trot test yesterday. We have started on EquiNectar and I am signing up for a groundwork course. We will trundle onwards and I will do what I think is best for me and for my horse.

I understand you've found the replies hard to read but please be careful for your own safety. You've had two falls already, it would be a shame to get injured or lose your confidence through stubbornness to 'plough on'.

 

[cauda equina]

@Murphy88 what dose of aloe vera do you recommend please?
And is there any particular preparation or brand which seems more effective than others?
Thank you

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I have been trying to stay away from the thread and will avoid starting any more when distressed in future for the sake of my sanity and self worth.

I have been busy researching. There is so much conflicting information. A leading German PSSM expert said that n/px wouldn’t stop her buying a horse. Apparently there is a manganese blood test…if you are under 1.7 then the px is unlikely to be problematic. An article by a British expert says that px magnifies the other variants, so if the horse has no other variants, you’re okay…but goes on to say that there are very likely other variants that haven’t been discovered yet. So the horse could have ‘p5’ variant which is being magnified, but you wouldn’t know why the horse was symptomatic as ‘p5’ doesn’t have a test yet. So it would look like px being symptomatic on its own. And someone contacted me from NX to say to be very careful as in her experience all px horses are explosive and dangerous.

We have the odd symptom or two which I am not going to list which have made me think, h’mm, based on my previous experience, so there is my own empirical evidence which might be unscientific but which doesn’t count for nothing either.

I post what I have found not because I think I am right or because I have an axe to grind but because I am sharing what I have gleaned in my continuing journey towards The Truth in case it helps anyone else. As I have said, my doctorate and fellowship are NOT science based, so I can only do my best, bumbling along trying to understand what I read. The Truth does not appear to be out there atm.

Anyway, horsey came 3rd with 71.7% in a walk trot test yesterday. We have started on EquiNectar and I am signing up for a groundwork course. We will trundle onwards and I will do what I think is best for me and for my horse.

Can recommend the TRT method if you have someone near, or someone that does liberty as well. Its so much fun.

 

[Gamebird]

Just as a point of information esomeprazole is available in the UK via vets. It's a compounded preparation so although it is not licensed, it is formulated specifically for horses and available as coated granules or paste. It can be used legally via the prescribing cascade where appropriate.

 

[Fieldlife]

Just as a point of information esomeprazole is available in the UK via vets. It's a compounded preparation so although it is not licensed, it is formulated specifically for horses and available as coated granules or paste. It can be used legally via the prescribing cascade where appropriate.

Interesting, thanks. Is esomeprazole via your vet a cheaper option than omeprazole via your vet?