Angry, disgusted, devestated...trust no one!!!

[Adina]

I've read all through this thread and I think YO made a mistake - a mistake that lots of people make with grass livery. CHECK UNDER THE RUG at least once a week. The rug doesn't have to come off, just undo belly straps and run your hands under. If there is no wind, weather is OK, roll it back to check for rubs. I don't think there was intentional lack of care.
There are lots of Polo ponies on their winter rest on various farms around here. They all have adlib hay but are unrugged. Although they are checked daily I cannot imagine anyone would check under rugs of 20 ponies in a field - so they are better without (and fat and hairy).
If the trusted friend had found the loss of weight she could have informed the owner and made suitable arrangements.
Over the years there have been a number of posts about broodmares returning home in poor state because no-one took a rug off.

 

[silvershoes]

How long where they left there before you went to collect them?
Did you have a contract stating exactly what care they were to be give?

From the end of December until Friday they were there under the YOs care. Nothing was put in writing as in a contract or anything as it was a friends place. We have text messages from YO and us asking about the mares etc. YO also informed us of the hay being put in the fields would be an extra cost and we agreed this was fine. Nothing else in writing as such unfortunately

 

[BorgRae]

OP - I have read the whole thread and truly feel devastated for you. You did all you could, don't blame yourself.

I saw your last post stating that her condition had deteriorated.

My heart goes out to you and your mare. I really hope she pulls through this, bless her.

Thinking of you both and sending <<<<<healing vibes>>>>>

Let us know how she gets on xx

 

[PandorasJar]

How long was she there? Must've been quite a time to deteriorate to such an extent

I wouldn't be paying livery as either care was poor, or there was a condition that vet should've been called immediately to.

However in regards to the above I've seen a shockingly fast deterioration, from good, 48 hours off colour and having a vet booked, to near skeletal in about 24. So over the course of 3 days which the vet was booked for the third. Will have to find out what the actual term was, but was to do with rapid water loss. He'd been off colour a couple of days ahead, off food (but not completely) drinking okay and vet was due out on the day he deteriorated. Came well again very quickly after though.

So it is possible that the neglect in OPs case wasn't continued, but in the form of not getting a vet out urgently.

 

[glamourpuss]

I think that a lot of the posters here should get down off their high horse.
The extra information the OP shows that this horse was not abandoned by an uncaring owner. It looks like provisions were put in place to give the best care to the horse until it could be collected.

That said even if these provisions hadn't been put in place, even if this OP had left the horse without proper care (which I honestly don't believe) this YO should not have allowed a horse to get into the state it has on their yard. No-one should watch a horse become so emaciated that it collapses.
Even if there hasn't been regular contact - which it obviously sounds like there has. The YO had a duty to the horse on her property, would it have killed her to call the OP & said 'I don't think your horse is coping at the moment, I think you need to come see her/move her' . No, it wouldn't!

All this OPdid was put her trust in a friend. Lots of us do that. She has been lied to & now the poor horse is suffering.

OP if you have records of texts/ emails/bills for hay etc I would be tempted to speak to the WHW about this being a severe neglect case

 

[touchstone]

From the end of December until Friday they were there under the YOs care. Nothing was put in writing as in a contract or anything as it was a friends place. We have text messages from YO and us asking about the mares etc. YO also informed us of the hay being put in the fields would be an extra cost and we agreed this was fine. Nothing else in writing as such unfortunately

Like I posted before, if money was exchanged then legally there doesn't have to be a written contract. The yo failed in their duty of care. You really need legal advice on this one if you want to take it further, but I expect you'd have a pretty good case.

 

[PandorasJar]

We have a few TB and TB x's who live out and without exception, they did all need hard feed during the snow as well as the extra forage and extra rugs. They have all come out looking well, even the highly strung 4 year old TB mare.

I have tb and tbx out with no rugs and no hard feed. The tb is a biger pain than the natives as the only one who comes out of winter having put on weight . Plenty of tb broodies are out naked and with only forage too. However the forage must be there - we have ad lib large haylage bales in wet and snow.

 

[meesha]

silvershoes - so so sorry to hear about your mare.

The fact that you moved is irrelevant - if you made arrangements with the YO (again irrelevant if she was a friend as she wasnt doing it out of friendship but was charging) to care for your horse and to bill you accordingly for hay etc then she is totally and utterley at fault.

How can anyone fail to notice a horse not coping ! even under a thick rug you can see loss of condition and she had a duty of care to your mare to check her properly.

I would without a doubt be leaving any bill she has presented you with unpaid - I would also be billing her for all vets bills and calling the rspca to make them aware of the situation - for all you know there may be other horses in a bad way on her land.

Keeping fingers crossed for your mare. Take Care.

 

[silvershoes]

I think that a lot of the posters here should get down off their high horse.
The extra information the OP shows that this horse was not abandoned by an uncaring owner. It looks like provisions were put in place to give the best care to the horse until it could be collected.

That said even if these provisions hadn't been put in place, even if this OP had left the horse without proper care (which I honestly don't believe) this YO should not have allowed a horse to get into the state it has on their yard. No-one should watch a horse become so emaciated that it collapses.
Even if there hasn't been regular contact - which it obviously sounds like there has. The YO had a duty to the horse on her property, would it have killed her to call the OP & said 'I don't think your horse is coping at the moment, I think you need to come see her/move her' . No, it wouldn't!

All this OPdid was put her trust in a friend. Lots of us do that. She has been lied to & now the poor horse is suffering.

OP if you have records of texts/ emails/bills for hay etc I would be tempted to speak to the WHW about this being a severe neglect case

Thank you, I have a contact for a solicitor and will take it further. Just waiting to speak to the vet today to ditermine how she is today. Was informed earlier she is down again and can't get up, she's always been such a fighter when it comes to illness or injury. She is a typical TB and finds it difficult to stay out of trouble but this is just ridiculous. I would hate to think I am making her suffer for the sake of keeping her, if in reality she might never have a quality of life again. I had plans of putting her in foal in the spring after having a but of fun with her again, hacking and a few xc days, all seems a blur now and rather than wondering what her foal will be like, I'm wondering how hard it will be without her

 

[Irishbabygirl]

OP, you've done nothing wrong - you've paid for a livery service that wasn't provided by the YO. I hope your mare recovers from this, keep us posted.

 

[Elsiecat]

I think plenty of people are getting the wrong end of the stick from my posts. I'm not on a 'high horse'. I'm being realistic. There's few people you can trust in the world, I wouldn't dream of not seeing my horse in 8 weeks. Not saying that the OP is a bad owner, but I am saying the she could have done more where that was concerned. Having said that, if she trusted YO, I suppose she'd have no reason to doubt her.
I bet the livery yard owners version of events would paint an entirely different story. I'm not saying that the YO is in the right, because she's not. She's far from it and I'd be reporting her to the RSPCA.
The horse has been put in an awful situation and my heart goes out to her.
The horse had 2 people with a duty of care, owner and YO. Sadly one didn't know (owner) and another either didn't know or didn't care (YO).
I think we all are on a common ground with praying this horse gets better.
We all hear horror stories time and time again. When will we all become vigilante?

 

[Rollin]

So sad to read your story. I hope your horse makes a full recovery.

I am the most distrustful person in the world. I kept my first horse on full livery because of the demands of my job. I questioned the fact that his hard feed, which I purchased seemed to last a long time. He got mild colic and I discovered the Head Girl was not feeding him at all Monday-Friday and the other grooms knew this. She was just lazy and lied to me.

My husband and I went away on holiday and paid over £1,000 in livery at the one of the most expensive centres in Scotland. We arrived at 10.00am on a Sunday morning to collect them and discovered water buckets choked with straw and horses not fed.

The Yard Manager did not work on a Sunday and the students who worked there were arguing over whose responsibility it was to feed the three boxes occupied by my two old geldings and pony. So they did nothing!!

 

[magichorse]

Silvershoes, this is dreadful and absolutely not your fault. You must feel devastated please don't listen to those who are saying that you are to blame. You left the horses in good faith and expected them to be cared for. I sincerely hope that your mare pulls through and makes a full recovery x

 

[touchstone]

I think plenty of people are getting the wrong end of the stick from my posts. I'm not on a 'high horse'. I'm being realistic. There's few people you can trust in the world, I wouldn't dream of not seeing my horse in 8 weeks. Not saying that the OP is a bad owner, but I am saying the she could have done more where that was concerned. Having said that, if she trusted YO, I suppose she'd have no reason to doubt her.
I bet the livery yard owners version of events would paint an entirely different story. I'm not saying that the YO is in the right, because she's not. She's far from it and I'd be reporting her to the RSPCA.
The horse has been put in an awful situation and my heart goes out to her.
The horse had 2 people with a duty of care, owner and YO. Sadly one didn't know (owner) and another either didn't know or didn't care (YO).
I think we all are on a common ground with praying this horse gets better.
We all hear horror stories time and time again. When will we all become vigilante?

Oh I agree we need to be vigilant, however the op trusted this person, was sent regular updates and so felt she had no reason to doubt the information she was being given.

I daresay it is a hard lesson well learned, but the wrong doer in this is the YO - I had a pony abandoned on my grazing and legally it then became my responsibility to care for it; the YO in this instance was being paid and completely out of order to allow the horse to get to this stage, the vet, owner or welfare agencies should all have been contacted rather than just leave the poor horse to starve to death.

 

[applecart14]

How appalling. I truly hope your little mare makes it xx

 

[PandorasJar]

I've read all through this thread and I think YO made a mistake - a mistake that lots of people make with grass livery. CHECK UNDER THE RUG at least once a week. The rug doesn't have to come off, just undo belly straps and run your hands under. If there is no wind, weather is OK, roll it back to check for rubs. I don't think there was intentional lack of care.
There are lots of Polo ponies on their winter rest on various farms around here. They all have adlib hay but are unrugged. Although they are checked daily I cannot imagine anyone would check under rugs of 20 ponies in a field - so they are better without (and fat and hairy).
If the trusted friend had found the loss of weight she could have informed the owner and made suitable arrangements.
Over the years there have been a number of posts about broodmares returning home in poor state because no-one took a rug off.

I would not be happy with only checking under a rug once a week. The rug should be checked at minimum daily. Rain, wind, heat changes so much and a rug will hugely affect how each is felt. A warm day will be far warmer and a simple overrug (when cutting wind out would've been enough) can do a fair amount of damage in a day alone.
I used to check liveries rugs at the minimum three times a day (twice by myself and once by someone being paid to do so as part of their jobs) and more if sun came out or weather changed.

Unrugged furries I'm not so worried about as rugged as they can regulate and you can see the body clearly but should still be checked frequently.

A rug hides a multitude of sins including bad injuries and if the intention isn't to check under them, then they shouldn't be taking on the care of the animal.

 

[shadowboy]

Silvershoes I feel for you. I had a similar situatiation where my TB mare broke my leg in. Feb 2008. I was in plaster over my knee and had pins holding it together. I could not get to the yard to see my mare for 12 weeks as I lived in a flat at the time and couldn't get down the stairs and had to be assisted by 2 strong men when I did have hospital appointments the pins in my get had to be kept clean so it was not safe to get to the yard. I paid full livery for my mare. She was quite poor when I did get to see her but had been stabled and had basic care- I think my friend struggled to do her and her two so she dropped a little. Rather than admit this she carried in telling me my mare was fine. Thankfully a little dr green in may and she was fine. I understand how sometimes life can prevent you from visiting your horses frequently....

 

[zigzag]

You left her at the end of December? Was she on hay and hard feed when you left? Was she fat when you left? Do you have a picture of her before you left?

 

[Clippy]

If your horse was turned out in bad weather, especially being a TB, surely it would cross your mind that she might need more than hay? I don't think the YO is at fault for providing more than hay, especially as you hadn't paid her in the last month.

I hope your mare makes a good recovery but I personally don't think the yard owner is at fault

 

[maxapple]

Just to add on the dropping condition quickly - my tb fractured his leg and had to be admitted to the vets. He has to be sedated to travel so the journey didn't help either.

In his first full day there we just visited and gave him a oat as he was so poorly. On day 2 or 3 the vet said we could give him a little groom. They warned me he had dropped some weight but I was amazed that in 2/3 days he had gone from looking ok to a welfare case. He had jutting out hip bones, ribs clearly visible etc.

Tbs can drop weight very quickly and it takes ages to get it back on. That might explain why one horse is ok and the other isn't. She may have been ill and just gone downhill quickly.

All that aside, if the yo has agreed to check on your horse and knew you were mikes away, she has been negliable. She knew you weren't around to do the everyday checks so should have done them herself - and if she couldn't or wouldn't for whatever reason, she should have told you.

Don't blame yourself. Horrid situation. And most definitely do not pay the livery.

 

[touchstone]

If your horse was turned out in bad weather, especially being a TB, surely it would cross your mind that she might need more than hay? I don't think the YO is at fault for providing more than hay, especially as you hadn't paid her in the last month.

I hope your mare makes a good recovery but I personally don't think the yard owner is at fault

If the horse owner needed more than hay, then surely she/he should have contacted the owner and explained that, instead of saying that the horse was fine?
Personally if the horse needed hard feed and wasn't getting it (although I think it's been far more than just a lack of hard feed for a horse to be at the collapsing stage) I couldn't have stood by and watched it suffer, bills paid or not.

 

[silvershoes]

You left her at the end of December? Was she on hay and hard feed when you left? Was she fat when you left? Do you have a picture of her before you left?

No hay and hard feed as the grass was ankle high in a 20 acre field. She'd been there since October and hadn't had any since then and she looked well so I thought she would be fine to continue that way. Obviously when the snow came I knew she would need hay and this was provided. Her legs were sore from the mud fever and she had lost all her shoes so I know she would have been sore, I think what has happened is she has got so sore she couldn't walk to the hay or water anymore. But my point being, if I was looking after them I would notice her not being around the others and went to investigate and informed the owner she needed the mud fever treating or a new set of shoes, which being the owner I would have been fine about. I know I was miles away, but it only takes a phone call or a text message. I don't have any pics of her before she went there, I do but they're on my old phone, she was out on loan for 2yrs until Aug last year due to financial circumstances of her loan home. She came back looking fantastic. I'll upload a pic of her though.

 

[silvershoes]

Here's (well hopefully) a pic of her just to show the stamp of horse she is. I actually can't look at at, knowing how bad she is now :'(

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6770_101181853423_1151388_n.jpg

 

[be positive]

i hope there is a good outcome for this poor mare, there may well be an underlying reason for such a drop in condition, if she suffers from impaction colic it is possible that she has been getting colicky for some time.

The OP is in no way at fault, she has paid for livery, hay and checks, kept in regular contact and thought her horse was in good hands, it has been a dreadful winter and some weight loss was probably expected and acceptable but for the horse to be on the point of collapse is not.
As for those who say the Op should have gone to check, a 500 mile journey is hardly a trip that could be done in an afternoon , it is less than 2 months since she was there and the horse looked well.
I currently have 2 liveries with owners that are not around, one is in South Africa for a year and a day trip to check is hardly realistic, she trusts I will care for him, the other owners are not horsey , it is their racehorse on field rest, they would not know whether he looked good or not but again trust me to take care of him, he has dropped off a bit but if he was going too far he would come in and be on full livery to enable him to pick up, not left to collapse in the mud.

 

[Milkmaid]

I agree with those that have said there may possibly be something else going on with your mare. I work with cattle and quite regularly see them go from well covered & healthy to hat racks barely able to stand in a matter of days if they are seriously ill. I also had the same thing with my NF recently when he had a virus (thankfully he didn`t reach the emaciated stage before he started to respond to treatment but he dropped a HUGE amount of weight in days).

But that said it is a rare T.B that can live out without any supplement feeding all winter as there is no real goodness in the grass over winter even if there is lots of it. On adlib haylage possibly yes, but nothing except when it snowed? I would have been questioning that? She may be now be severely deficient which has compromised her immune system? Many possibilities........has the vet taken bloods? Is the mare eating & drinking o.k now?

The Land owner should have noticed the mare was ill/thin & not eating and got her in. She also should have informed you so you could call the vet asap.

This winter has been very hard for lots of animals and the hay/haylage hasn`t been enough where it normally is.
ETA just seen the pic, she`s a lovely mare :-(

 

[Tonks]

She was out on grass livery at a livery yard along with 9 or more other liveries horses. It was agreed with myself, the YO and my OH that she would check them (as we were moving to Surrey) until we could arrange to come back and get them.

I agree it was only a grass livery as such, but as we were friends and were in a difficult situation, this was what was agreed.

When we were there we did go and check them, but when you think you know these people you put your trust in them

The Welfare Act states this:

"Under the Act animal owners and keepers are under a legal duty of care for the animals for which they are responsible on a permanent or temporary basis. A person could therefore be responsible for an animal if they own it or are in charge of it. An owner has ongoing responsibility for their animal even if another person is in charge of it. A parent or guardian of a child under 16 years old is responsible for any animal that is owned or cared for by the child. This ensures that an adult can normally be identified as a person responsible for an animal. If an owner leaves an animal in the care of another person, it is the owner&#8217;s duty to ensure the keeper is competent and has the necessary authority to act in an emergency."

Make of this what you will...................and I do hope your horse is OK in the end.

 

[silvershoes]

I agree with those that have said there may possibly be something else going on with your mare. I work with cattle and quite regularly see them go from well covered & healthy to hat racks barely able to stand in a matter of days if they are seriously ill. I also had the same thing with my NF recently when he had a virus (thankfully he didn`t reach the emaciated stage before he started to respond to treatment but he dropped a HUGE amount of weight in days).

But that said it is a rare T.B that can live out without any supplement feeding all winter as there is no real goodness in the grass over winter even if there is lots of it. On adlib haylage possibly yes, but nothing except when it snowed? I would have been questioning that? She may be now be severely deficient which has compromised her immune system? Many possibilities........has the vet taken bloods? Is the mare eating & drinking o.k now?

The Land owner should have noticed the mare was ill/thin & not eating and got her in. She also should have informed you so you could call the vet asap.

This winter has been very hard for lots of animals and the hay/haylage hasn`t been enough where it normally is.
ETA just seen the pic, she`s a lovely mare :-(

She is eating and over drinking now which the vet said could be causing damage to her liver and kidneys. After not having food and water for so long and now having lots of it, its like a shock to the system I'd assume. Just waiting for the verdict from today, but I am already prepared for the worst.

 

[crabbymare]

I have several horses here that for various reasons the owners rarely visit but they are all healthy and looked after and if one looked as if it was getting a bit poor it would get extra feed even if the owner had not replied to authorise the extra cost. if someone is paying for a horse to be looked after with hay when the weather turned then the YO should have been looking more carefully at the horse as they know the owner is not in a position to visit and should have replied to their text or email telling them the real condition of the horse a lot earlier so the option of hard feed was there. I would hate to think that an owner was not able to trust me to look after their horse and felt they had to do a 1000 mile round trip to check up on me. OP I really hope your mare is able to get some rest where she is and that although she is down its now because she is exhausted and feels safe enough to rest and recover

 

[siennamum]

OP I think you are being very harshly judged. If someone had a horse with a pro then they might very well not see it from one month to the next, that doesn't mean they should expect it not to be cared for. And this is no different. The person responsible for the horse clearly knew you were going away and that they were in charge of the horse's welfare.

I've just retired my horse, and you know what, it was 2 months before I went to see him, and he looked great. The whole point of him being on grass livery where he is is that I don't have the time to go and see him particularly often, and I trust the person who is looking after him - and rightly so.

I feel for you - I think people are being very very unfair. You were paying someone to do and job and they didn't do it.

I agree.

 

[here_i_am]

So sorry for you OP. I really hope she keeps fighting & you can get her home.
You say hay was given. Was it DEFINITELY given, or do you think the yo could have lied & just SAID she gave them hay?I wouldn't believe a word she said tbh.
I hope you're ok xx