Another fatal dog attack

[splashgirl45]

Yes re the body language and puppies. However, it doesn't matter if it's a bull breed or not. Pay attention. Put your dog on a lead. Don't let your dog go up to strange dogs.

Is that aimed at telling me how to behave around other dogs? If so please don’t assume that I allow my dogs to go up to strange dogs, I was makin* the point that if it was a bull breed I would also go in the opposite direction and not walk close to it whereas if it was another breed I wouldn’t go a different way

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Is that aimed at telling me how to behave around other dogs? If so please don’t assume that I allow my dogs to go up to strange dogs, I was makin* the point that if it was a bull breed I would also go in the opposite direction and not walk close to it whereas if it was another breed I wouldn’t go a different way

Nope. It was a general statement. Not personal.

 

[SadKen]

The trouble with an ‘on lead’ rule is the same trouble as a dog licence.

Bad people will not comply.

Mine like an off lead run. We spend most walks off lead. As soon as I see another dog or people or anything alive and furry, they go back on immediately. I loathe the idea of having to comply with an on lead rule because I don’t like breaking the law, whilst the local gits will ignore it. So I think I will ignore it too, if it comes in.

As for muzzles, my previous GSD got attacked repeatedly through his life. I think it’s because he carried his tail high and was massive. He would never go for another dog, but he would warn it if it was right in his face. Since he was always on lead when we encountered other dogs, the other was always off lead. I therefore decided not to muzzle him and deprive him of his only defence when he was never the aggressor.

he met many puppies and small dogs, and was never anything but supremely gentle with them regardless of if they were in his space. I would muzzle if I couldn’t trust him with a puppy. But honestly I wouldn’t keep a dog that I couldn’t trust not to harm (not just tell off) a puppy. That isn’t a happy, normal dog and it’s not one I have the capacity or desire to manage. the BC owner was to blame for that attack but I wouldn’t have a dog that could do that to a puppy.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Eff it! No rules then. Sorted!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Ok, but seriously though, the whole, well, if they're not going to do it/follow the rule, then neither am I! Does nobody any good and can have a far reaching ripple effect. I know it's frustrating being the law abiding citizen at times, and I've been there. It's so hard to find an answer in these situations because we're idiots. Humans are idiots. Everyone of us.

 

[stangs]

Just thinking urban environments, the trouble with an on-leash rule is that dogs would be even less likely to be properly socialised and exercised, not to mention how many people would just stop training recall. So then you’re dealing with increased risk of out-of-control dogs the minute the leash gets dropped by accident, or in general more frustrated dogs at home and so more dog-on-owner attacks.

Strikes me as similar to how making eventing easier has also resulted in more unprepared combinations. Ironically, making things safer in some ways can also make them more dangerous in others.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Depends what one deems 'socialisation' to be and if one thinks it's appropriate that the only time a dog mixes with others is in the street/park with random unknowns.

The street or the busy park is also not where most people train recall. Not that anyone seems to round here anyway already.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It's interesting how fixated and borderline how entitled some people feel about their doings be off leash.

I get that off leash has huge benefits, but dog socialization isn't about being off leash or even necessarily about the dog even interacting with other dogs/humans directly all of the time. Dog socialization is much more than that, but being off leash is a part of it.

We just hardly ever had these issues when I lived in Germany, and I'm trying to think about what was soo different there, aside from purely the culture and self responsibility.

If your dog bolts or reacts the minute or instant you drop the lead, that's a training issue. That can occur with a dog who's spent their life entirely on a lead or with one who is also exercises off of the lead. Both can have terrible recall. Or in some cases the dog is so stimulated and your recall doesn't mean sh*t because you've only practiced recall in more "ideal" environments. Hard to practice in not "ideal" environments, don't get me wrong. If you're a member of a good dog club/school then you've got more options and resources, in my experience.

I think a lot of it comes down to dogs, or certain dogs, not necessarily having a place in some urban settings. For the welfare of the animal, mainly. Asking your LGD to live in a flat in London is idiotic, IMO.

 

[SadKen]

It’s not that we should have no rules. It’s that adding more rules when existing ones don’t work is only going to impact law abiding people negatively, and not fix the situation.

I’m not going to negatively impact my dogs and my own enjoyment of what round here is generally empty countryside for the sake of making people feel ‘something must be done’, when it won’t make any difference to the problem. I don’t see off lead time as socialisation; we use it to train. My dogs never interact with others unless I know the owner and the dog (other people’s out of control dogs aside). I know other people will have off lead dogs which aren’t trained which I will find irritating at best, but I still don’t think blanket lead laws are the answer. The people who let their dogs run up to mine after I’ve asked them not to are not people who are going to obey a law.

Enforcing existing law would be a better place to start by a mile. Agree that not all places are suitable for dogs, and if I lived in London where there is a dog every 10 steps I would likely support on lead requirements in public parks - but those would need enforcing, all the time.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It’s not that we should have no rules. It’s that adding more rules when existing ones don’t work is only going to impact law abiding people negatively, and not fix the situation.

I’m not going to negatively impact my dogs and my own enjoyment of what round here is generally empty countryside for the sake of making people feel ‘something must be done’, when it won’t make any difference to the problem. I don’t see off lead time as socialisation; we use it to train. My dogs never interact with others unless I know the owner and the dog (other people’s out of control dogs aside). I know other people will have off lead dogs which aren’t trained which I will find irritating at best, but I still don’t think blanket lead laws are the answer. The people who let their dogs run up to mine after I’ve asked them not to are not people who are going to obey a law
Enforcing existing law would be a better place to start by a mile. Agree that not all places are suitable for dogs, and if I lived in London where there is a dog every 10 steps I would likely support on lead requirements in public parks - but those would need enforcing, all the time.

Oh I agree, it's just a tough situation. This argument of "why add more rules when the existing rules aren't followed" or "criminals don't obey the law" applies to many scenarios I can think of. I think that enacting law without enforcement is rather pointless!

 

[stangs]

By socialisation, I mean dog clubs where people meet up every morning at the local park to let their dogs play together.

For over a decade now, I’ve gone walking to this park several times a week, at different times of the day, and I can count on one hand the number of skirmishes I’ve witnessed (all of which involved dog walkers with too many dogs). Big mix of breeds from Malis to Italian Greyhounds to Boerboels and never an issue otherwise.

The reason clubs/meet-ups like this exist is because there is genuinely nowhere else to socialise a dog in my part of London. People don’t have gardens for play dates, there are no dog training schools or dog fields, and the single dog park is practically the Wild West. London parks are a lifeline for dogs and dog owners in the city.

And, yes, I regularly see people training recall on a long line in the park. I’ve had to catch a couple hounds and terriers in my time before they made a beeline for the exit, but otherwise recall is also rarely an issue. It’s the worry that said dog will f*ck off in pursuit of a squirrel that’s headed for the road that makes people train recall. If dogs were always on-leash, people wouldn’t have that worry, et voilà, the number of missing dog posters would triple.

Lead requirements in London parks would also not have prevented the many times I’ve been growled at or followed by a barking dog when walking outside of London. I’ve found that the more urban you go, the better behaved the dogs so I don’t know if we’re the ones in need of further restriction.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

By socialisation, I mean dog clubs where people meet up every morning at the local park to let their dogs play together.

For over a decade now, I’ve gone walking to this park several times a week, at different times of the day, and I can count on one hand the number of skirmishes I’ve witnessed (all of which involved dog walkers with too many dogs). Big mix of breeds from Malis to Italian Greyhounds to Boerboels and never an issue otherwise.

The reason clubs/meet-ups like this exist is because there is genuinely nowhere else to socialise a dog in my part of London. People don’t have gardens for play dates, there are no dog training schools or dog fields, and the single dog park is practically the Wild West. London parks are a lifeline for dogs and dog owners in the city.

And, yes, I regularly see people training recall on a long line in the park. I’ve had to catch a couple hounds and terriers in my time before they made a beeline for the exit, but otherwise recall is also rarely an issue. It’s the worry that said dog will f*ck off in pursuit of a squirrel that’s headed for the road that makes people train recall. If dogs were always on-leash, people wouldn’t have that worry, et voilà, the number of missing dog posters would triple.

Lead requirements in London parks would also not have prevented the many times I’ve been growled at or followed by a barking dog when walking outside of London. I’ve found that the more urban you go, the better behaved the dogs so I don’t know if we’re the ones in need of further restriction.

Hm, that's interesting.

 

[CorvusCorax]

See I don't count a big group of dogs tear-arsing around as 'socialisation'.

 

[cbmcts]

Oh I agree, it's just a tough situation. This argument of "why add more rules when the existing rules aren't followed" or "criminals don't obey the law" applies to many scenarios I can think of. I think that enacting law without enforcement is rather pointless!

Rightly or wrongly I feel that just adding more draconian rules to cover all dog owners will encourage people to ignore then as they seem pointless and will only mask the current problems rather than cure them. It really needs a culture change where having a well trained dog gives you kudos and a badly behaved dog gets you pitying looks and makes you feel like a failure.

I do think licensing is our future and the revenue from that should be ring fenced for enforcement but also facilities for dogs. Third party insurance for all dogs with a tag issued annually that must be worn in public and linked to the microchip so can easily and quickly checked by a large increase in dog wardens (funded by licenses) but also the insurance premiums could be linked to the training standard of your dog. Relatively cheap insurance for 8 weeks to 12 months, big hike in price thereafter until you and your dog have gone through training, lets say something like the KC Bronze, Silver and Gold with reductions for each level achieved and once Gold standard is reached, insurance should be really cheap. A dog and owner that are trained to a gold standard are as safe as any animal can be. The incentive to train should encourage a larger market in training classes but they should have minimum standards overseen by a local or national authority. Education is key - maybe you should have to complete, online or in person, a short course to obtain a certificate required before you can purchase a dog or register a microchip in your name?

Apparently there are 10 million dogs in the UK - if the license fee was £50 per dog and there was 80% compliance in buying one, that would be £400m per year in revenue. That alone would pay a fair few dog wardens, subsidise training classes and education plus take a government levy from the mandated insurance which could easily raise another £100 million or so.

Yes there would be public outrage and it feels unfair to those who do manage their dogs well but if we carry on as we are, good dog owners will lose more and more freedoms due to the muppets with out of control, ill mannered, dangerous dogs. This way, those who don't license, microchip and insure their dogs can be dealt with before the dog injures or kills someone or something in public. Slightly less effective in private where most attacks occur but tbh, public pressure could work here too - if you have paid to make your dogs legal and you suspect Joe Bloggs up the road doesn't, you'll be inclined to report them (I would!) The authorities now have the resources to check and enforce...

​

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Rightly or wrongly I feel that just adding more draconian rules to cover all dog owners will encourage people to ignore then as they seem pointless and will only mask the current problems rather than cure them. It really needs a culture change where having a well trained dog gives you kudos and a badly behaved dog gets you pitying looks and makes you feel like a failure.

I do think licensing is our future and the revenue from that should be ring fenced for enforcement but also facilities for dogs. Third party insurance for all dogs with a tag issued annually that must be worn in public and linked to the microchip so can easily and quickly checked by a large increase in dog wardens (funded by licenses) but also the insurance premiums could be linked to the training standard of your dog. Relatively cheap insurance for 8 weeks to 12 months, big hike in price thereafter until you and your dog have gone through training, lets say something like the KC Bronze, Silver and Gold with reductions for each level achieved and once Gold standard is reached, insurance should be really cheap. A dog and owner that are trained to a gold standard are as safe as any animal can be. The incentive to train should encourage a larger market in training classes but they should have minimum standards overseen by a local or national authority. Education is key - maybe you should have to complete, online or in person, a short course to obtain a certificate required before you can purchase a dog or register a microchip in your name?

Apparently there are 10 million dogs in the UK - if the license fee was £50 per dog and there was 80% compliance in buying one, that would be £400m per year in revenue. That alone would pay a fair few dog wardens, subsidise training classes and education plus take a government levy from the mandated insurance which could easily raise another £100 million or so.

Yes there would be public outrage and it feels unfair to those who do manage their dogs well but if we carry on as we are, good dog owners will lose more and more freedoms due to the muppets with out of control, ill mannered, dangerous dogs. This way, those who don't license, microchip and insure their dogs can be dealt with before the dog injures or kills someone or something in public. Slightly less effective in private where most attacks occur but tbh, public pressure could work here too - if you have paid to make your dogs legal and you suspect Joe Bloggs up the road doesn't, you'll be inclined to report them (I would!) The authorities now have the resources to check and enforce...

​

I absolutely agree that a culture change is needed. I have more to say on this, but I'll have to come back later.

 

[maisie06]

Is that aimed at telling me how to behave around other dogs? If so please don’t assume that I allow my dogs to go up to strange dogs, I was makin* the point that if it was a bull breed I would also go in the opposite direction and not walk close to it whereas if it was another breed I wouldn’t go a different way

I also avoid bull breeds, I find them hard to read and they are quite frightening just because of their sheer size and weight, I grew up around Boxer dogs but american bullies are not something I wish to be in close proximity of.

 

[Clodagh]

Yesterday I passed a very muscular young man with some sort of bullie ( on a lead). If I had a dog with me I would have gone a long way to avoid him, even on foot I left a wide berth. I’m sure he (owner) is delighted.

 

[maisie06]

Same here. My GSDs are on lead at the moment because of lambing, ground-nesting birds etc and it does actually make life less stressful in lots of respects but I wouldn’t enjoy the beach almost as much if there were lead rules. I probably just wouldn’t go.

I have no problem with on lead rules either. I don't walk on the beach anymore though as the water board have been discharging sewage into the sea locally....

 

[Smitty]

There is a video of a man with a big dog, crop eared, who had a huge problem with putting his dog on a lead when asked to by 3 policeman. In a swimming pool car park. It didn't even have a collar. I saw this on Protect our Pets but it originally came from Instagram. Sadly he had loads of support with an amazing amount of people saying what a beautiful dog it is .

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Interestingly I had the experience of being shouted at by a man in a park for the heinous act of...giving his off lead bully a wide berth. I hadn't said a word to him, literally stepped off the path to give lots of space. Apparently we would like it all ways...to have a big scary dog then whinge (aggressively) that it's unfair on the (in that particular case, blissfully oblivious) dog when people are scared of them. There's nothing like someone having a go at you to make you think 'oh maybe this is safe after all'

 

[CorvusCorax]

I bump into a large bully thing around here, it's a Dad and two kids, he keeps it on the line and give space to other dogs. However I did see him letting it splash around in the stagnant old mill run, so I imagine it will catch Weil's disease if that carries on.

 

[blackcob]

Not quite up to date on this thread, apologies if repost, regarding last October's case:

Grandmother killed in dog attack 'likely to have been breaking up fight'

Reading police reports, Mr Rebello said there were five adult American bulldogs, belonging to Mrs Dunn’s son Stephen, living in the house, as well as a Jack Russell-crossbreed and a 10-week-old Labrador

The two males had a history of fighting and had previously injured her son, the owner.

 

[skinnydipper]

There is a video of a man with a big dog, crop eared, who had a huge problem with putting his dog on a lead when asked to by 3 policeman. In a swimming pool car park. It didn't even have a collar. I saw this on Protect our Pets but it originally came from Instagram. Sadly he had loads of support with an amazing amount of people saying what a beautiful dog it is .

This one?

Police vs Dog walker | By Birmz is Grime | Facebook

Police vs Dog walker

fb.watch

 

[Smitty]

Yes .

 

[Clodagh]

This one?

Police vs Dog walker | By Birmz is Grime | Facebook

Police vs Dog walker

fb.watch

Well what a proper man he is.

 

[SadKen]

Not a nice read. The little dog is lucky to be alive.

XL Bully and Rottweiler maul Tibetan terrier called Rocky

WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT The two mutts savaged 11-year-old Rocky on a morning walk in Wightwick, Wolverhampton at just after 7am - leaving blood everywhere.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Moobli]

And another

Dog owner watches in horror as pet 'mauled to death by two Pitbulls'

Rocky (pictured), a Chihuahua-Jack Russell mix, was only seconds into a walk on Monday night when he was brutally attacked by a pair of 'Pitbull-like' animals in Camberwell.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[splashgirl45]

It’s getting too common now, that could have been a child.. poor little dog and poor owners

 

[Smitty]

But depressingly I have read of 3 dogs killed by offlead mastiff and bull types since last Sat. An 11 yo pug, an 18 week old springer and a jack/chi as it was leaving its home. In two cases the owners of the attacking dogs fled the scene.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

And another

Dog owner watches in horror as pet 'mauled to death by two Pitbulls'

Rocky (pictured), a Chihuahua-Jack Russell mix, was only seconds into a walk on Monday night when he was brutally attacked by a pair of 'Pitbull-like' animals in Camberwell.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Bolton shoppers surrounded by dogs before owner leads them away | Daily Mail Online

The owner of the dogs shot dead by armed police after they allegedly went on a rampage cried as he was led away by officers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This was the next video what an absolute knobchop of a man. It's so unnecessary and out of order.