Another fatal dog attack

[bonny]

What I do find a bit unnerving though is that any of us, especially with large working type breeds, could end up in a similar position to that man. Taken at face value as we don’t know whether the man has a history of violence, drugs etc, the police demand he hand the dogs over for assessment (not something I’d want to willingly do) because of a claim they attacked someone. I’ve yet to see reports on what the attack involved but did see it widely reported that no one went to hospital. Many dogs would act similarly to the dogs in the video when confronted with an intimidating mob advancing on them and the owner clearly getting angry and agitated. So I find it a worrying precedent that police can shoot such dogs, while still accepting that in this case they were possibly left with no viable alternative.

Just don’t let your dogs attack anyone ? I’m amazed by the number of people saying the woman involved didn’t need to go to hospital as if that makes a difference. Should we do nothing about aggressive dogs until their victim is badly injured ? I suspect the majority of people in the same situation as the police would have shot the dogs and it was the best solution all round.

 

[AmyMay]

Just don’t let your dogs attack anyone ? I’m amazed by the number of people saying the woman involved didn’t need to go to hospital as if that makes a difference. Should we do nothing about aggressive dogs until their victim is badly injured ? I suspect the majority of people in the same situation as the police would have shot the dogs and it was the best solution all round.

Actually, I don’t think anyone has said that the woman not needing hospital treatment should make a difference.

My initial thoughts were exactly the same as Moobli’s (she just articulated it better).

The video has no context, so makes it all more shocking.

 

[bonny]

Actually, I don’t think anyone has said that the woman not needing hospital treatment should make a difference.

My initial thoughts were exactly the same as Moobli’s (she just articulated it better).

The video has no context, so makes it all more shocking.

Lots of people have commented that the woman involved didn’t need hospital treatment, not on here but other places.

 

[DabDab]

What I do find a bit unnerving though is that any of us, especially with large working type breeds, could end up in a similar position to that man. Taken at face value as we don’t know whether the man has a history of violence, drugs etc, the police demand he hand the dogs over for assessment (not something I’d want to willingly do) because of a claim they attacked someone. I’ve yet to see reports on what the attack involved but did see it widely reported that no one went to hospital. Many dogs would act similarly to the dogs in the video when confronted with an intimidating mob advancing on them and the owner clearly getting angry and agitated. So I find it a worrying precedent that police can shoot such dogs, while still accepting that in this case they were possibly left with no viable alternative.

Yes it's a really odd incident...I presume (hope) they did check that the victim had been bitten before they sent the armed police after the man and his dogs

 

[bonny]

Yes it's a really odd incident...I presume (hope) they did check that the victim had been bitten before they sent the armed police after the man and his dogs

I’m sure they didn’t send armed police lightly.

 

[Clodagh]

Yes it's a really odd incident...I presume (hope) they did check that the victim had been bitten before they sent the armed police after the man and his dogs

I agree with all that but tbh no blood needed to be drawn, people shouldn’t allow their dogs to terrify people.
But the second dog at least didn’t look aggressive to me? ( I’ve only watched it once) when they shoot the first dog the second one just looked confused and wasn’t looking at the police. I don’t want to rewatch it.

 

[DabDab]

I agree with all that but tbh no blood needed to be drawn, people shouldn’t allow their dogs to terrify people.
But the second dog at least didn’t look aggressive to me? ( I’ve only watched it once) when they shoot the first dog the second one just looked confused and wasn’t looking at the police. I don’t want to rewatch it.

Well yes, sort of, but people can be scared by all sorts of things. I've certainly been unnerved by the odd dog that didn't ostensibly do anything...
And I can also imagine a heated domestic incident in which the dogs were just there and someone phoning the police in the heat of an argument and saying something that is a bit of an exaggeration.
It's an unusual thing to happen, so people are naturally going to be curious about the context since that hasn't been disclosed

 

[DabDab]

I’m sure they didn’t send armed police lightly.

is it routine to respond to a call about a dog attack with armed police? I have no idea. I don't think it's unreasonable for the police to clarify that

 

[conniegirl]

is it routine to respond to a call about a dog attack with armed police? I have no idea. I don't think it's unreasonable for the police to clarify that

No, generally its the dog unit i believe. They have the equipment to deal with most unruly dogs.
Must have been bad for there to be an armed response

 

[Moobli]

No, generally its the dog unit i believe. They have the equipment to deal with most unruly dogs.
Must have been bad for there to be an armed response

But no reports on the bite incident that led to this whole thing? I find that odd. Also this guy may have been known for violence, drugs, gang related stuff etc etc which may have heightened the perceived threat maybe and hence armed police being deployed.

 

[splashgirl45]

I’m actually quite pleased I don’t have a large dog as I would be worried that people would say it was dangerous.. it’s easy to say don’t let your dog attack anyone and I’m sure no one on here would but people are really stupid around dogs and want to pet them even if the owner says no.. my 2 tiny terriers are cute looking and it drives me mad when kids come rushing up to pet them without the parents asking , mine are both gentle but the younger one will jump up and that can scare kids so I only let kids pet the older terrier .. these days with so many people not understanding dogs they could say my young terrier attacked a child so I am ultra careful, but I prefer that non dog people stayed away from my dogs

 

[druid]

If you can find the full video (not the carefully edited one that starts after the dog is shot), he intentionally releases the first dog to attack the police (the point at which it is shot). The second dog was released from the catch pole and subsequently shot (intentional release? Not sure)

 

[Dexter]

If you can find the full video (not the carefully edited one that starts after the dog is shot), he intentionally releases the first dog to attack the police (the point at which it is shot). The second dog was released from the catch pole and subsequently shot (intentional release? Not sure)

It was when he was tasered that the second dog got upset, and then they let it go and shot it. It was thrashing about, I'd imagine most dogs would if their owner was in that much distress. They had it under control though, so had to have been intentional to release it. Those catch poles don't just slip off. I don't think the Met have covered themselves in glory with this incident. The commentary from the woman filming is interesting, and she is firmly of the opinion that the police didn't behave well when they shot the dog. Full video is here, but be aware it does show the dogs being shot.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1655248612224385025

 

[Keith_Beef]

up to pet them without the parents asking

When I was a small boy I was told to always ask the owner if I could stroke a dog and never to just run up and start doing that...

 

[druid]

It was when he was tasered that the second dog got upset, and then they let it go and shot it. It was thrashing about, I'd imagine most dogs would if their owner was in that much distress. They had it under control though, so had to have been intentional to release it. Those catch poles don't just slip off. I don't think the Met have covered themselves in glory with this incident. The commentary from the woman filming is interesting, and she is firmly of the opinion that the police didn't behave well when they shot the dog. Full video is here, but be aware it does show the dogs being shot.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1655248612224385025

There's lots of questions to be answered but they don't have the armed response out for a laugh - the dogs or the owner must have warranted enough concern for the deployment? Why did he let the first dog go - that looked intentional especially what he was saying as he let go?

 

[SadKen]

The latest reports are that the man was homeless, his dogs had been barking at people going into a shop and he was asked to move on, and the woman had a small dog who was attacked and got caught in their leads. According to an eyewitness in the Mail, who seemed to think it was fine that a small dog got attacked… but that’s another issue.

I didn’t like to see the dogs shot, and dare say it could have panned out differently if decisions on both sides were different, with the benefit of hindsight. I know if one of my dogs was shot I’d have been lying over the other one not releasing it towards the guy with the gun. But a homeless man whose dogs are barking at shoppers is not likely to be making good decisions and the police likely reacted in the moment. A sad situation with the dogs set up to fail.

Round here the police deliberately ran over a dog on a local bypass because they couldn’t catch it. So I probably wouldn’t want to hand mine over either.

 

[jsprince]

This is supposed to be video of the women being "attacked". A witness reported that she came out of the shop with her dog and one of the dogs jumped up. To me though the dogs don't look like they are attacking anyone, they definitely are not going after the smaller dog. The lady herself seems a bit overwrought is the nicest way I can put it. She then supposedly rang the police and told them she had been attacked by 2 out of control dogs which sparked the police.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1655485449790521345

 

[cbmcts]

I suspect that the armed police were available because of the day that it was and because this happened in London. It does sound like it was a difficult situation and the police had to make a decision quickly and under pressure.

The reality of it is the dogs were going to die anyway. If seized, they would have had some months in a secure kennels and even if the court just imposed a control order on them, it is very unlikely that a homeless owner would have been able to comply with it - often they aren't just about a muzzle and lead in public, there are conditions about how and where they are housed too. So they would be PTS at that point as rehoming them would be impossible. Dogs that are likely to have spent 24/7 with their owner would probably have struggled in kennels - housed alone and without sight of other dogs, usually with minimal human contact too for safety reasons. Watching the video, it appears that the second dog especially, suffered more than it had to though. At that range, I would have expected a cleaner shot and quick death but then again, I wasn't there...

Once again, dogs set up to fail.

 

[jsprince]

I suspect that the armed police were available because of the day that it was and because this happened in London. It does sound like it was a difficult situation and the police had to make a decision quickly and under pressure.

The reality of it is the dogs were going to die anyway. If seized, they would have had some months in a secure kennels and even if the court just imposed a control order on them, it is very unlikely that a homeless owner would have been able to comply with it - often they aren't just about a muzzle and lead in public, there are conditions about how and where they are housed too. So they would be PTS at that point as rehoming them would be impossible. Dogs that are likely to have spent 24/7 with their owner would probably have struggled in kennels - housed alone and without sight of other dogs, usually with minimal human contact too for safety reasons. Watching the video, it appears that the second dog especially, suffered more than it had to though. At that range, I would have expected a cleaner shot and quick death but then again, I wasn't there...

Once again, dogs set up to fail.

I must admit I did wonder if the heightened tensions of the Coronation played into this, unfortunately we will never know there was a retired Met officer on the radio yesterday talking about protestor arrests and one of the interesting things he said was that there now no really experienced police officers on the ground. Years ago constables and sergeant could happily stay in ranks for 20 years and know the area and people now most officers have less than 4 years experience.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

No, generally its the dog unit i believe. They have the equipment to deal with most unruly dogs.
Must have been bad for there to be an armed response

Very, very few dog units round my way. You’d be better off asking for Firearms, also very thin on the ground.

 

[skinnydipper]

This is supposed to be video of the women being "attacked". A witness reported that she came out of the shop with her dog and one of the dogs jumped up. To me though the dogs don't look like they are attacking anyone, they definitely are not going after the smaller dog. The lady herself seems a bit overwrought is the nicest way I can put it. She then supposedly rang the police and told them she had been attacked by 2 out of control dogs which sparked the police.

If the incident you provided a link to happened a few days before it is clearly not the same incident that the Police were responding to.

 

[bonny]

The police are employed to protect people, not dogs.

 

[jsprince]

If the incident you provided a link to happened a few days before it is clearly not the same incident that the Police were responding to.

I think one of us had the wrong end of the stick not sure if me or you.

I'm interpreting top comment as though the person posting video was showing incident that caused it referring to couple of days ago being Saturday he posted it 8th may so few days after dogs killed.

Or of your interpretation is correct and this happened a few weeks ago.

 

[skinnydipper]

I think one of us had the wrong end of the stick not sure if me or you

If the incident you provided a link to happened a few days before it is clearly not the same incident that the Police were responding to.

Or of your interpretation is correct and this happened a few weeks ago.

 

[cbmcts]

The police are employed to protect people, not dogs.

Actually the police are officers of the law, to enforce the laws passed by parliament. They do not make the law nor do they get to make value judgements on it.

 

[skinnydipper]

This is supposed to be video of the women being "attacked"

The person who posted on Twitter said it happened a few days before the dogs were shot.

I think there must have been something amiss for someone to start filming.

I've now watched the incident on my PC, full screen normal speed with sound and slower speed no sound.

At the start it looks as if the black dog has made contact with the small white one, whether that was to sniff or bite who knows, but the little white dog squealed.

It happened on an evening, the street lights are on.

The incident the Police responded to happened approx 5pm on Sunday.

 

[jsprince]

The person who posted on Twitter said it happened a few days before the dogs were shot.

I think there must have been something amiss for someone to start filming.

I've now watched the incident on my PC, full screen normal speed with sound and slower speed no sound.

At the start it looks as if the black dog has made contact with the small white one, whether that was to sniff or bite who knows, but the little white dog squealed.

It happened on an evening, the street lights are on.

The incident the Police responded to happened approx 5pm on Sunday.

Yes, looking at it you could be right, I suppose the answers will only come out if the case goes to court, with the lady who was involved.

I must admit to not actually liking bully breeds, - but I do think the tension and escalation with the police does not give a good look to the proceedings. Cooler heads I think were much needed.

 

[stangs]

The more I think about it, the more I think the killing of the dogs was unjust. I don’t believe that armed cops are knowledgeable enough on dog behaviour to determine whether a dog is out of control or not. As far as I understand it, the dogs had no bite history, so they’ve essentially been deemed worthy of the death penalty, without a court case, based on barking in a highly stressful situation (which the police's behaviour only made more stressful), approaching people off leash, and (presumably) their breed. Is this not similar to the issues in the US - where individuals are killed based on the police perceiving them to be dangerous, regardless of whether they're actually dangerous or not?

I appreciate that there’s ethical issues to removing the dogs and keeping them in kennels as well, but are people really comfortable having unqualified folk decide whether a dog lives or dies? With dangerous dogs being a hot topic at the moment, and bully breeds in particular, I just think this case sets a dangerous precedent.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think the whole thing is disgusting and it was badly handled. I wish I hadn't watched it.

 

[SadKen]

The more I think about it, the more I think the killing of the dogs was unjust. I don’t believe that armed cops are knowledgeable enough on dog behaviour to determine whether a dog is out of control or not. As far as I understand it, the dogs had no bite history, so they’ve essentially been deemed worthy of the death penalty, without a court case, based on barking in a highly stressful situation (which the police's behaviour only made more stressful), approaching people off leash, and (presumably) their breed. Is this not similar to the issues in the US - where individuals are killed based on the police perceiving them to be dangerous, regardless of whether they're actually dangerous or not?

I appreciate that there’s ethical issues to removing the dogs and keeping them in kennels as well, but are people really comfortable having unqualified folk decide whether a dog lives or dies? With dangerous dogs being a hot topic at the moment, and bully breeds in particular, I just think this case sets a dangerous precedent.

I agree.

What if it turns out that the dogs actually didn’t attack anyone?

Would I react differently if the police showed up, guns trained on my two GSD and already jumpy because the reports they had were that my GSDs had mauled a woman (and I knew that wasn’t true?). Id like to think I would, because I’m not homeless and not treated like a dangerous pariah by society. but would I be happy handing my now stressed dogs over to people who are already frightened of them, with guns trained on them, wanting to put a pole lead on them? No, I would not. Once out of sight, my dogs would be reliant on those same people for their survival. It’s not good odds.

‘There but for the grace of god go we’.

There needs to be a new approach. This is an opportunity to develop one.