Another fatal dog attack

[cauda equina]

The poor dogs belonged to a man who was aggressive and uncooperative
That's what sealed their fate; if they hadn't been despatched then the chances are it would have happened eventually

 

[marmalade76]

Yep I’ve previously said that GSD were the dog of choice for the idiot in the 80s and am very well aware that they have had a reputation ever since. I am also conscious that it’s deed not breed, but there is a reason that there is a flood of attacks and deaths associated with these particular dogs and it can’t just be pinned on fashionable idiocy, because that’s always been there. Imo it’s because those traits which are being bred for enable easier killing even though that isn’t the intention (breeding is for size and muscle, which make death a more likely outcome of an attack). Temperament isnt a concern for selecting breeding xl dogs.

GSD were bred to work with the handler. They have numerous traits that I found appealing (trainability, herding etc) beyond appearance, whereas the Bully XL is meant to appear intimidating; they don’t have a role beyond guard.

Yes, GSD have been poorly bred (and how!) and owned by idiots when they were fashionable, resulting in that reputation. But they weren’t bred for traits that ultimately made them more capable killers; a GSD that ignores its handler was a negative when breeding from the start, but is largely irrelevant in the world of an XL. Hence why we didn’t see a huge spate of deaths in a short time when GSD were the idiot’s dog of choice, but we do now. I don’t deny GSD have killed; they have, but even the bad breeding wasn’t specifically designed to get a bigger, more aggressive, muscular dog that then has more capability to kill or seriously injure. A guardian breed would always do that job better.

Re bad handling, a triggered GSD is likely far more survivable than a triggered bully, based on the reports of dog attacks historically. Yes, that depends on the attack and the victim, I’m just going off the dog attacks noted over time. I’m not defending my breed particularly, I’m simply stating that bullies are more equipped to kill due to the traits being selected for breeding. They may also be more likely to attack given the breed history and idiots breeding them.

I don’t think XL bully have been bred to kill either, it’s just that the characteristics which are being selected for aesthetic reasons happen to produce a better killer when the trigger is pulled.

Totally agree. I know the GSD & the Doberman were the devil dogs of my childhood but I grew up with both and can honestly say I've never been bitten by a dog or even felt as risk of it. To the post about the Lab biting, my sister was bitten on the face by my uncle's lad bitch who'd been bred by my grandfather, all she did was clear my uncle's plate from the table and the dog jumped up and bit her face, but that was it, one bite, she wasn't mauled, the dog didn't clamp on and refuse to let go and that for me is the difference.

 

[marmalade76]

It's interesting how fixated and borderline how entitled some people feel about their doings be off leash.

I get that off leash has huge benefits, but dog socialization isn't about being off leash or even necessarily about the dog even interacting with other dogs/humans directly all of the time. Dog socialization is much more than that, but being off leash is a part of it.

We just hardly ever had these issues when I lived in Germany, and I'm trying to think about what was soo different there, aside from purely the culture and self responsibility.

If your dog bolts or reacts the minute or instant you drop the lead, that's a training issue. That can occur with a dog who's spent their life entirely on a lead or with one who is also exercises off of the lead. Both can have terrible recall. Or in some cases the dog is so stimulated and your recall doesn't mean sh*t because you've only practiced recall in more "ideal" environments. Hard to practice in not "ideal" environments, don't get me wrong. If you're a member of a good dog club/school then you've got more options and resources, in my experience.

I think a lot of it comes down to dogs, or certain dogs, not necessarily having a place in some urban settings. For the welfare of the animal, mainly. Asking your LGD to live in a flat in London is idiotic, IMO.

Yes, the entitled, why do people think their dogs are entitled to be off lead in public places, parks, beaches? On public footpaths crossing private land? IMO no dog is entitled to be off lead anywhere other than a secure dog park or or the owner's own private property. My dog roams around as she chooses on my rented private property, everywhere else, she's on a lead.

 

[Moobli]

The more I think about it, the more I think the killing of the dogs was unjust. I don’t believe that armed cops are knowledgeable enough on dog behaviour to determine whether a dog is out of control or not. As far as I understand it, the dogs had no bite history, so they’ve essentially been deemed worthy of the death penalty, without a court case, based on barking in a highly stressful situation (which the police's behaviour only made more stressful), approaching people off leash, and (presumably) their breed. Is this not similar to the issues in the US - where individuals are killed based on the police perceiving them to be dangerous, regardless of whether they're actually dangerous or not?

I appreciate that there’s ethical issues to removing the dogs and keeping them in kennels as well, but are people really comfortable having unqualified folk decide whether a dog lives or dies? With dangerous dogs being a hot topic at the moment, and bully breeds in particular, I just think this case sets a dangerous precedent.

The precedent is what worries me as I said in an earlier post

 

[Moobli]

Yes, the entitled, why do people think their dogs are entitled to be off lead in public places, parks, beaches? On public footpaths crossing private land? IMO no dog is entitled to be off lead anywhere other than a secure dog park or or the owner's own private property. My dog roams around as she chooses on my rented private property, everywhere else, she's on a lead.

I don’t have any problem with dogs being exercised off lead in public places providing they aren’t being a nuisance to anyone or anything else. I’d hate to see a time when dogs could only have a free run in dog parks or on private property. I don’t think it’s being “entitled”.

 

[SilverLinings]

Giles Coren wrote in the Times yesterday that his next door neighbour's well-behaved cockapoo was recently killed outside a shop in London by a large dog (I can't remember whether a breed was mentioned). Once the large dog had finished killing the cockapoo the woman attached to the other end of the large dog's lead just walked off with it, leaving the dead dog and it's distraught owner. If this was reported to the Police (which seems likely) then it may have influenced the response of the armed police to the two dogs shot at the weekend, especially if it was the same breed and/or near the same location. The significant increase in the number of humans (particularly children) being killed by dogs in the UK in the last couple of years may also have meant that they felt pressure to avoid any risk that those dogs could go on to cause serious harm if not stopped by the police.

If, however, it turns out that the woman reported to have been attacked was lying/exaggerating and the police didn't investigate appropriately before wading in and shooting the dogs then they have done wrong (IMO). I haven't watched the video, but if the dogs weren't involved in an actual harmful attack then the police may have felt threatened by the first dog they shot charging at them, but have no excuse for shooting the second dog, who was already restrained.

At the moment there are a lot of missing details, so I'm not sure whether the police response was appropriate or not.

I do think it is absolutely disgusting though that the owner of the dog who killed GC's neighbour's dog didn't even apologise, and that that dog is presumably still being walked around London, free to attack the next small fluffy dog it takes against.

 

[bonny]

Giles Coren wrote in the Times yesterday that his next door neighbour's well-behaved cockapoo was recently killed outside a shop in London by a large dog (I can't remember whether a breed was mentioned). Once the large dog had finished killing the cockapoo the woman attached to the other end of the large dog's lead just walked off with it, leaving the dead dog and it's distraught owner. If this was reported to the Police (which seems likely) then it may have influenced the response of the armed police to the two dogs shot at the weekend, especially if it was the same breed and/or near the same location. The significant increase in the number of humans (particularly children) being killed by dogs in the UK in the last couple of years may also have meant that they felt pressure to avoid any risk that those dogs could go on to cause serious harm if not stopped by the police.

If, however, it turns out that the woman reported to have been attacked was lying/exaggerating and the police didn't investigate appropriately before wading in and shooting the dogs then they have done wrong (IMO). I haven't watched the video, but if the dogs weren't involved in an actual harmful attack then the police may have felt threatened by the first dog they shot charging at them, but have no excuse for shooting the second dog, who was already restrained.

At the moment there are a lot of missing details, so I'm not sure whether the police response was appropriate or not.

I do think it is absolutely disgusting though that the owner of the dog who killed GC's neighbour's dog didn't even apologise, and that that dog is presumably still being walked around London, free to attack the next small fluffy dog it takes against.

There are a lot of dogs in London, seems quite a jump to think the cockerpoo attack had anything to do with the two shot dogs. More likely the police had a report of two bully type dogs, went to investigate them and then felt threatened and shot them. I suspect most of us if faced with that situation if we were holding a gun would have done exactly the same.

 

[blackcob]

The owner was previously disqualified from keeping dogs:

A man has been charged with a dangerous dog offences following an incident in Tower Hamlets.

Louie Turnbull, 46 (13.06.76) of no fixed address was charged on Tuesday, 9 May with:

- Being the person/owner of a dog that was dangerously out of control;
- Being in possession/custody of a dog whilst disqualified from owning or keeping a dog.

Source

 

[Jenko109]

It may sound terrible but I'm indifferent about this.

I'm confident there was good reason there were armed police on scene and no doubt the owner was not a good person or indeed someone you would want to own any dog; certainly not a powerful bull breed. I have no sympathy for him losing his dogs.

The dogs themselves have likely never known stability. I would prefer to see them dead than in the hands of someone who will use them as a weapon or to intimidate others.

Of course it is not nice to see dogs shot. I would much prefer that it was significantly harder to own a dog so that such people never have the opportunity to set dogs up to fail in the first place.

 

[ycbm]

I don’t have any problem with dogs being exercised off lead in public places providing they aren’t being a nuisance to anyone or anything else. I’d hate to see a time when dogs could only have a free run in dog parks or on private property. I don’t think it’s being “entitled”.

The problem is that lots of people don't like dogs, lots of people are afraid of dogs and any loose dog could run up to or close to one of these people. So if dog owners have a right to run those dogs loose in public places, then they remove the right of those people to walk without fear.

It doesn't matter that the walker knows they are in total control of their own dog, once the dog is off lead anyone who doesn’t know the dog doesn’t know that it's under control.

I can see the argument that the rights of the humans come before the rights of any dog to run loose in public.

I never used to feel this way but I lost my sight in one eye down at foot level and any dog that runs into that part of my sightline becomes an immediate threat that I will fall over it. It's a minor disability that doesn't even stop me driving but it does make me feel very unsafe around loose dogs.

ETA I have now lost count of the number of dog walkers who have told me I should walk somewhere that there are no dogs.
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[Gloi]

The problem is that lots of people don't like dogs, lots of people are afraid of dogs and any loose dog could run up to or close to one of these people. So if dog owners have a right to run those dogs loose in public places, then they remove the right of those people to walk without fear.

It doesn't matter that the walker knows they are in total control of their own dog, once the dog is off lead anyone who doesn’t know the dog doesn’t know that it's under control.

I can see the argument that the rights of the humans come before the rights of any dog to run loose in public.

I never used to feel this way but I lost my sight in one eye down at foot level and any dog that runs into that part of my sightline becomes an immediate threat that I will fall over it. It's a minor disability that doesn't even stop me driving but it does make me feel very unsafe around loose dogs.

ETA I have now lost count of the number of dog walkers who have now told me I should walk somewhere that there are no dogs.
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When my sister was alive I used to go out for walks with her and had to be ever so careful to protect her from dogs. Her skin had become paper thin and a dog jumping at her catching a claw on her would tear it apart . So many people just let them run up to us and I had to grab them and fend them off. It's alright he's friendly was the response.

 

[AmyMay]

I don’t have any problem with dogs being exercised off lead in public places providing they aren’t being a nuisance to anyone or anything else. I’d hate to see a time when dogs could only have a free run in dog parks or on private property. I don’t think it’s being “entitled”.

I absolutely agree. I take my dog to the beach nearly every day. Her recall is excellent, and hand on heart I’ve had two scary incidents in 9 years. Today at the beach was a woman with 3 large whippets and a lurcher. I’m always aware of what’s going on around me and clocked them immediately. They were impeccably behaved, recalled instantly and and were no bother to anyone.

Maybe I’m fortunate in where I live, but I do think this perpetual heightened anxiety about other dogs is misplaced.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Maybe I’m fortunate in where I live, but I do think this perpetual heightened anxiety about other dogs is misplaced.

This is such an important point and I really hope people think about this in their responses.

I say this as someone who started their dog ownership in a place where accessing open spaces with relatively few dogs around, right for our doorstep, was easy. There was the odd annoyance and a rare occasion of actually feeling under threat. We never came across any XL bullies or much in the way of large/mastiff/bull breeds. We are now living in an area where finding open spaces that aren't highly dog populated is near impossible without driving. There are multiple known problem dogs in the area (Akita, Cane Corso, GSDxMastiff). I have yet to pass an XL bully who didn't fixate on us in a way that felt incredibly intimidating. There seems to be ever increasing incidents reported of dog attacks. I do not think my anxiety is misplaced. The sooner I can move away from here the better. Not everyone will be fortunate or in a position to move to places they feel safer.

 

[ycbm]

Maybe I’m fortunate in where I live, but I do think this perpetual heightened anxiety about other dogs is misplaced.

A M without exaggeration, I would say that my safety is threatened by a dog coming in from the right where I can't see it at least twice a month, walking an average of five hours a week. Some of the worst are on extended leads.
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[AmyMay]

A M without exaggeration, I would say that my safety is threatened by a dog coming in from the right where I can't see it at least twice a month, walking an average of five hours a week. Some of the worst are on extended leads.
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My response was in response to dog owners only.

 

[ycbm]

My response was in response to dog owners only.

Thanks for telling me, that wasn't obvious from your post. I'm glad you aren't dismissing the concerns of walkers who have no dogs with them.
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[Clodagh]

I think I am so incredibly privileged and lucky to live somewhere where our biggest threat is a free range farm collie , and that is very rare. When I walk on the moor I meet other dogs and every single one has been no trouble at all. So in my life I have Amymay relaxation levels.
Go to places where you see endless bull breeds, which is rare for me and I’ve never had my dogs with me, and I agree that I am scared. Not just anxious. Scared.
In my lifetime the level of entitled stupidity has just gone through the roof.

 

[Clodagh]

Thanks for telling me, that wasn't obvious from your post. I'm glad you aren't dismissing the concerns of walkers who have no dogs with them.
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My mum ended up in hospital after a collie jumped up and tore her thin arm skin. I can honestly say my dogs would not approach you, but I also would not expect you to know that. I don’t put mine on leads but I sit them up when passing people and people are so astounded it’s possible. I just say I’m a training guru. . I don’t really!

 

[stangs]

This is such an important point and I really hope people think about this in their responses.

I say this as someone who started their dog ownership in a place where accessing open spaces with relatively few dogs around, right for our doorstep, was easy. There was the odd annoyance and a rare occasion of actually feeling under threat. We never came across any XL bullies or much in the way of large/mastiff/bull breeds. We are now living in an area where finding open spaces that aren't highly dog populated is near impossible without driving. There are multiple known problem dogs in the area (Akita, Cane Corso, GSDxMastiff). I have yet to pass an XL bully who didn't fixate on us in a way that felt incredibly intimidating. There seems to be ever increasing incidents reported of dog attacks. I do not think my anxiety is misplaced. The sooner I can move away from here the better. Not everyone will be fortunate or in a position to move to places they feel safer.

Out of curiosity - and feel free to ignore me - but do you live in an area with more crime now as well?

Just thinking that, in London at least, most of the dangerous dog incidents have occurred in areas with comparatively high knife/gang crime. Whereas I live in a part of London that's relatively safe, and none of the 'problematic' breeds (a couple XL bullies, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, mastiff types) here have ever caused an issue. The main breeds I see trying to go for other dogs or people are terriers.

 

[cbmcts]

The problem is that lots of people don't like dogs, lots of people are afraid of dogs and any loose dog could run up to or close to one of these people. So if dog owners have a right to run those dogs loose in public places, then they remove the right of those people to walk without fear.

It doesn't matter that the walker knows they are in total control of their own dog, once the dog is off lead anyone who doesn’t know the dog doesn’t know that it's under control.

I can see the argument that the rights of the humans come before the rights of any dog to run loose in public.

I never used to feel this way but I lost my sight in one eye down at foot level and any dog that runs into that part of my sightline becomes an immediate threat that I will fall over it. It's a minor disability that doesn't even stop me driving but it does make me feel very unsafe around loose dogs.

ETA I have now lost count of the number of dog walkers who have told me I should walk somewhere that there are no dogs.
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People always will and always should have more rights than dogs. But dog owners are people too and have the same rights as any other person. While I understand and empathise with those that have a fear or dislike of dogs, their rights to feel that way should not automatically over ride the rights of other citizens - who happen to own dogs - to use publicly funded spaces. Now if you were to request that there are dog free areas, strongly enforced, in every public space so you had a choice of places to walk, I'd happily support that. But there would also need to dogs allowed areas there too with a reasonable split of the available areas. And there should be zero tolerance of anti social behaviour both human and animal. But that's probably a pipe dream!

Like the majority of dog owners, I'm just as appalled as non dog owners by the behaviour of some dogs and their owners. I'm probably more annoyed on a regular basis with the 'they're friendly' types of mop head minus the broom handle with useless owners and have been known to reply to them that I'm not so get your f'king dog under control... but there are dogs that i see out and about, that I really wouldn't want to have to deal with if they came up to mine so I avoid them. I am anti breed legislation -it's been proven over many years and a lot of jurisdictions to be ineffective. What is needed is grass root change and education as to what is acceptable behaviour and enforcement of it. If you ban the current devil dog, there will always be another one along. Muzzle and leash laws also give a false sense of security - leads break or get dropped and in ycbm's case, a muzzled dog is just as dangerous to her as any other.

There are many things in public that I dislike and in some cases make it very difficult for me to go to certain places - I have next to no immune system when on steroids so those who cough or sneeze without covering their mouth make me recoil. Even if they cover their mouth, their hands are full of their germs and those germs can make me quite ill. Those who make a big deal about carrying on when they D&V or take their kids out when they have chickenpox, measles etc, that can put me in hospital. They too are antisocial, selfish gits. It's almost a phobia now but I accept it's my issue while resenting them bitterly.

 

[paddy555]

People always will and always should have more rights than dogs. But dog owners are people too and have the same rights as any other person. While I understand and empathise with those that have a fear or dislike of dogs, their rights to feel that way should not automatically over ride the rights of other citizens - who happen to own dogs - to use publicly funded spaces.

That non dog walker also has the right to walk without a dog running up to them loose or extended leaded, they also have a right to walk without fear when dogs such as Akitas, bull breeds etc are around. To add to that cyclist's also have the right to go in those areas as well as horse riders (presuming they are bridlepaths etc) without dogs running up to their horses, biting bikers legs or running across in front of bikers on extended leads. That is before we get to the seriously poor sighted, deaf or physically disabled humans. The dog owner with their own dog leaded and under control has the right to walk without other dogs coming near. As a GSD owner I found the comment "he likes large dogs" infuriating as these small loose dogs were allowed to run up to mine.

I have perfect eyesight but I am scared at dogs getting close to my horses heels either from the horse getting bitten or me falling off. Scared on my bike as I know if a dog comes at me it could well push me over, scared when they latch their teeth onto my leg (which has happened more than once) I am also scared of bull breeds and some of the bigger ones full stop. I spent 2 weeks in hospital after a horse bite, I don't suppose a dog bite will be any better.

The problem is that whilst dog owners have rights they also have responsibilities. They seem very keen on the former and not so keen on the latter.

It is fine having a dog loose on an empty beach etc but we are a very over crowded little country with far too many dogs and people competing for recreational space to walk.
I would like to see short leads for all in public spaces and muzzles for some although I don't know how you define "some"

 

[Moobli]

The problem is that lots of people don't like dogs, lots of people are afraid of dogs and any loose dog could run up to or close to one of these people. So if dog owners have a right to run those dogs loose in public places, then they remove the right of those people to walk without fear.

It doesn't matter that the walker knows they are in total control of their own dog, once the dog is off lead anyone who doesn’t know the dog doesn’t know that it's under control.

I can see the argument that the rights of the humans come before the rights of any dog to run loose in public.

I never used to feel this way but I lost my sight in one eye down at foot level and any dog that runs into that part of my sightline becomes an immediate threat that I will fall over it. It's a minor disability that doesn't even stop me driving but it does make me feel very unsafe around loose dogs.

ETA I have now lost count of the number of dog walkers who have told me I should walk somewhere that there are no dogs.
.

That is why I stated as long as they aren’t being a nuisance to anyone else. Wherever I walk if I see someone else with or without a dog, horse rider, cyclist etc I call my dogs and put them on the lead or in a sit/down until the person has passed. By free run I certainly didn’t mean free for all.

 

[paddy555]

That is why I stated as long as they aren’t being a nuisance to anyone else. Wherever I walk if I see someone else with or without a dog, horse rider, cyclist etc I call my dogs and put them on the lead or in a sit/down until the person has passed. By free run I certainly didn’t mean free for all.

I do appreciate you do and I appreciate the control you have over them. Sadly some of the rest don't.

There is only one breed who I excuse being off the lead and coming up to me when I am cycling, riding or walking. They can do little wrong.

 

[cbmcts]

The problem is that whilst dog owners have rights they also have responsibilities. They seem very keen on the former and not so keen on the latter.

It is fine having a dog loose on an empty beach etc but we are a very over crowded little country with far too many dogs and people competing for recreational space to walk.
I would like to see short leads for all in public spaces and muzzles for some although I don't know how you define "some"

I couldn't agree with you more that with rights, comes responsibilities but I do think that the same applies to all users of public spaces. not just dog walkers! Yes there is competition for space but it is shared space - open to all.

I'm hearing a lot about how all dogs should be on short leads/muzzled/ banned from public areas but have you considered that as a rider or a cyclist that you might not be thrilled if you were told you could only walk your horse on public land or that you must not go above 4mph walking speed on your bike? Even though you are normal, thoughtful member of society who wouldn't dream of barging through members of the public because they were going slower than you. Cyclists in particular, attract a lot of complaints for doing that - or would it be fairer to say some cyclists behave like that? Some dog owners are muppets, waste of oxygen who encourage their dogs to be dangerous. They are a tiny minority but as it's all over the media at the moment , it feels like slavering beasts are running amok. There are a larger minority who are thick, incapable of training their dogs, selfish and thoughtless - they are probably the same people who like to play music loudly in their little gardens and to hell with their neighbours - but they are still a minority. The majority of dog owners are normal, niceish people who occasionally get it a bit wrong, which while annoying doesn't actually harm anyone. Sharing and tolerance are important

 

[ycbm]

I'm hearing a lot about how all dogs should be on short leads/muzzled/ banned from public areas but have you considered that as a rider or a cyclist that you might not be thrilled if you were told you could only walk your horse on public land.

There are two ex railway tracks near me where horses are restricted to walk and a third where they are restricted to walk and trot.

I don’t understand why you think it's too much to be asked to keep your dog on a lead or at least to heel on public footpaths and in parks in order that others can walk without fear.

Your suggestion that I should campaign for dog free spaces to walk is both completely impractical and unfair on people who do keep their dogs on leads.
.

 

[paddy555]

I couldn't agree with you more that with rights, comes responsibilities but I do think that the same applies to all users of public spaces. not just dog walkers! Yes there is competition for space but it is shared space - open to all.

I'm hearing a lot about how all dogs should be on short leads/muzzled/ banned from public areas but have you considered that as a rider or a cyclist that you might not be thrilled if you were told you could only walk your horse on public land or that you must not go above 4mph walking speed on your bike? Even though you are normal, thoughtful member of society who wouldn't dream of barging through members of the public because they were going slower than you. Cyclists in particular, attract a lot of complaints for doing that - or would it be fairer to say some cyclists behave like that? Some dog owners are muppets, waste of oxygen who encourage their dogs to be dangerous. They are a tiny minority but as it's all over the media at the moment , it feels like slavering beasts are running amok. There are a larger minority who are thick, incapable of training their dogs, selfish and thoughtless - they are probably the same people who like to play music loudly in their little gardens and to hell with their neighbours - but they are still a minority. The majority of dog owners are normal, niceish people who occasionally get it a bit wrong, which while annoying doesn't actually harm anyone. Sharing and tolerance are important

If I am riding with walkers I will only be going at 4mph ie a walking pace, I will also be giving them plenty of space by either making the horse stand well to the side/out of their way etc. That is for the walker's safety. The horse does not have a habit of running up to them, jumping up at them, running up to their dogs or tripping them up. He stops within one stride and stands.
My bike usually behaves pretty well and it also hasn't run up to walkers. Some bikers could do with more manners I agree. Neither my bike nor my horse bite people.


The trouble with dog walkers is that they are not a tiny minority. The media has nothing to do with it. I am only thinking of reality. There are a lot of them and their dogs are running amok. Their numbers are growing.
For the most part horses are under control. Some riders may have poor manners but the horse is not running loose all over the pathway, the dogs are chasing him, he is not chasing the dogs. Do you think it is acceptable for loose dogs to run up to a ridden horse? I don't. I am also fed up of the phrase uttered by their owners of "he doesn't mind horses"

You refer to the larger minority who are thick, incapable of training etc. If dogs were on short leads then this group would be less of a problem. I wouldn't ban them but I don't think it unreasonable that they should be on short leads in many public places, or at least places where there are many members of the public. It is the responsibility of the dog owner to keep it under control, if that needs a lead so be it. It is unfortunate if that includes walkers who have good control.

I don’t understand why you think it's too much to be asked to keep your dog on a lead or at least to heel on public footpaths and in parks in order that others can walk without fear.

I agree.

 

[cbmcts]

There are two ex railway tracks near me where horses are restricted to walk and a third where they are restricted to walk and trot.

I don’t understand why you think it's too much to be asked to keep your dog on a lead or at least to heel on public footpaths and in parks in order that others can walk without fear.

Your suggestion that I should campaign for dog free spaces to walk is both completely impractical and unfair on people who do keep their dogs on leads.
.

I honestly don't think dogs should not be under control - I have one dog that never, ever goes off lead in public and another who has excellent recall who does. Even he is kept very close if there are a lot of people around and always if I'm passing close to others. He does not approach other people or dogs. If we are walking to the park, both are at heel with loose leads, sit at the kerb, watch for the command to move off and so on. We're on our way to somewhere and I expect them to be paying attention - working if you like. But once in the public park, either the little one up the road or the big country park a mile away, both dogs and I enjoy a meander - the off lead dog will play with his ball, go into the hedgerows for a sniff, paddle in any puddle deeper than an inch and consider his life complete if he gets a swim in the brook. None of that can be done on a short lead or to heel and I don't believe that mandating close control at all times is fair as long as the dogs are not bothering anyone else. I can understand that there are people who are letting their dogs annoy or scare others and you are more than entitled to be unhappy about it but just because they are selfish idiots is not good enough reason to restrict to that extent those who aren't. I have to admit that I really don't like being tarred with the same brush. And I do my utmost to give my animals as good a life as possible, allowing them to express natural behaviours, stay fit and healthy while ensuring that they don't impinge on others enjoyment of public areas. However, if it's just that they are 'there' is considered unacceptable, that is a lot of people (approx 10 million dogs in the UK I believe) that are effectively being excluded from public spaces that are meant to be for everyone to share.

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[cbmcts]

If I am riding with walkers I will only be going at 4mph ie a walking pace, I will also be giving them plenty of space by either making the horse stand well to the side/out of their way etc. That is for the walker's safety. The horse does not have a habit of running up to them, jumping up at them, running up to their dogs or tripping them up. He stops within one stride and stands.
My bike usually behaves pretty well and it also hasn't run up to walkers. Some bikers could do with more manners I agree. Neither my bike nor my horse bite people.


The trouble with dog walkers is that they are not a tiny minority. The media has nothing to do with it. I am only thinking of reality. There are a lot of them and their dogs are running amok. Their numbers are growing.
For the most part horses are under control. Some riders may have poor manners but the horse is not running loose all over the pathway, the dogs are chasing him, he is not chasing the dogs. Do you think it is acceptable for loose dogs to run up to a ridden horse? I don't. I am also fed up of the phrase uttered by their owners of "he doesn't mind horses"

You refer to the larger minority who are thick, incapable of training etc. If dogs were on short leads then this group would be less of a problem. I wouldn't ban them but I don't think it unreasonable that they should be on short leads in many public places, or at least places where there are many members of the public. It is the responsibility of the dog owner to keep it under control, if that needs a lead so be it. It is unfortunate if that includes walkers who have good control.

I suspect you have misunderstood me. I am not nor will I ever defend those who do not have control of their dogs. I do not tolerate the he's only friendly people and think that it's not acceptable to use as an excuse for what is effectively bad manners. However people like that should be dealt with rather than effectively removing a public amenity from those who do not allow their dogs to harass or interfere with other users. I had a cyclist once actually run up the back of my horse on a bridleway. I've had them pass be on both sides of the horse during a time trials, not a race. That caused a nasty, career ending for one horse in the group. I've had others skim past me on a byway and nearly hit by one on a zebra crossing. Do I say that cyclists shouldn't be allowed in public spaces or assume that anyone on bike is like that? No I don't but if I see one being a dick, I don't hesitate to call them on it. I call out rude dog walkers too. They are told to recall their dogs, pick up after them, get them out of the playground or whatever. I also report repeat offenders to the dog warden. It is not my or any other reasonable persons fault that enforcement is so ineffective. In my opinion, that's what we should all be shouting for - that the existing laws and byelaws are actually enforced. It would only take a relatively small number of dog owners to be fined or prosecuted for the 'larger minority' to start to see the value in actually training their dog or keeping it on lead if they can't figure out how to train it. Somehow, society has to figure out a way to make people take responsibility for their actions, not just dog owners but all anti social people. And to allow those who are following the rules to carry on without being penalised.

 

[Rumtytum]

My OH and I don’t have dogs although years ago he had labs and I had a working springer spaniel.
Walking in the area around our house is a nightmare due to out of control dogs. We are fed up with excuses: “they are young/only being friendly/only saying hello” etc. etc when their pet tries to jump all over us. My OH has been nipped twice by Jack Russells trotting past, turning round and getting him from behind. Nowadays we always wear solid walking boots, carry a stick and when a dog bounds up and leaps they get a knee in their chest and a loud “No!” . The outrage from the owners is a marvel.
Occasionally an owner will call their loose dog and put it on lead to pass us. They always get a big thank you, but are very much in the minority.
The best time for us was when Alabama Rot was rife in the area and people stopped taking dogs out.

 

[Clodagh]

When I went to walk with Spottherisk, so south moor and far, far busier than around me, every single dog we met was absolutely fine. Two on leads but the rest just like ours, dog and human neutral. That was several walks in several places. I was stunned how many dogs were out there, it was like a dog motorway in places, but absolutely no trouble at all.