Another fatal dog attack

[cauda equina]

You might not like this, but everyone’s fear is theirs to manage; it is not up to dog owners to take action to lessen other people’s fear. It IS up to them to control their dog and ensure it doesn’t interact with anyone or anything it isn’t supposed to. If the dog is a bite risk it should be muzzled. If it has no recall it should be on a lead. Dog owners have a moral duty to ensure their dogs are trained. But it doesn’t have to be muzzled unnecessarily because you are frightened, nor should it. Everyone has different fears and fear doesn’t give a right to impose on other people’s lives beyond the law. I know a couple of people locally are frightened of horses, they would like to stop the horses going on a local train track due to their fear. Not reasonable, the rights of the riders take priority over those people’s fears.

In this case there is no way of enforcing muzzles on a specific breed. It is also unreasonable and unenforceable to impose a blanket ‘muzzled in public all breeds all the time’, so the point is moot.

Actually it is

Controlling your dog in public

You can be fined if your dog is out of control in public - find out about Dog Control Orders, banned dogs, dog fouling and reporting a dangerous dog

www.gov.uk

Your dog is dangerously out of control if it:
- injures someone
- makes someone worried that it might injure them

 

[stangs]

All dogs on the restricted breeds list in the Republic of Ireland, have to be muzzled and kept on a short line in public, along with a raft of other stipulations. Not very often adhered to but a lot of people do use headcollars as it gives the look of a muzzle. They are also not permitted to be owned by tenants of public housing but there was utter uproar when there was a crackdown about ten years ago. The boxer was on it but later removed due to a campaign by breed enthusiasts.

American Pit Bull Terrier
English Bull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Bull Mastiff
Dobermann Pinscher
Rottweiler
German Shepherd
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Akita
Japanese Tosa
Bandog

It's fascinating how countries differ in their BSL - to think EBTs are restricted but not Dogos. And all much more common breeds than the UK's lot, with the Tosa as an anomaly.

 

[SadKen]

It isn’t just my dog’s right to remain unmuzzled, it’s a general observation that fear (which I am not dismissing) is not a reason to impose a significant change, which won’t work as a blanket legislative requirement, on an entire population of people.

You don’t have a ‘right’ to feel safe. Sorry, but it’s true. That isn’t a right, because only you can control your feelings. People feel in danger for all sorts of reasons all the time. The people who are scared of horses have a justified fear don’t they? Horses can be dangerous. Why not ban them from the train track? Doesn’t their right to feel safe trump the riders’ rights to ride there, if feelings of safety are the priority?

Re cauda’s post, can YBCm call the police and claim a crime is being committed every time she encounters an unmuzzled dog? Because she is worried that it might injure her due to the lack of muzzle?

 

[ycbm]

In what way would it significantly affect any dog's life to wear a light cage on its face when in public space?
.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I mean there's things you can do though without going through life thinking 'that's their problem if they're scared of dogs'. If I can see people are visibly uncomfortable or they or their friends or parents verbalise that they are scared of dogs/my breed, I can (and have done) visibly show the person that my dog is engaged with/has attention on me/can keep them very close to heel/put them in a static position as they pass/give loads of room/change direction etc and generally get thanked for it. I wouldn't just walk on thinking 'hey ho'.

 

[SadKen]

In what way would it significantly affect any dog's life to wear a light cage on its face when in public space?
.

I didn’t say it was a significant effect. I said it was a significant change. Which it is: going from muzzles optional to muzzles required for all breeds at all times.

In terms of effects, I can imagine it would be most unpleasant for brachycephalic breeds in summer. Regardless, if you want to impose legislation of this type on an entire population you better have good grounds. I don’t see there are any. I do see your desire to reduce your own fear.

Could you answer the questions I posed in my post above?

 

[ycbm]

Could you answer the questions I posed in my post above?

I found your post largely incoherent, (horses on train tracks?) so no I can't.
.

 

[SadKen]

I mean there's things you can do though without going through life thinking 'that's their problem if they're scared of dogs'. If I can see people are visibly uncomfortable or they or their friends or parents verbalise that they are scared of dogs/my breed, I can (and have done) visibly show the person that my dog is engaged with/has attention on me/can keep them very close to heel/put them in a static position as they pass/give loads of room/change direction etc and generally get thanked for it. I wouldn't just walk on thinking 'hey ho'.

So would (and do) I. It’s the helpful, moral thing to do. Its what I do to protect the reputation of my breed. It costs nothing and I’m happy to do it. But it isn’t an obligation. The law states the obligation.

 

[SadKen]

I found your post largely incoherent, (horses on train tracks?) so no I can't.
.

Sorry if you found it difficult.

Some people near me are frightened of horses. They want the horses banned from a public access byway which used to be a train track, because they are frightened. Should the horses be banned?

 

[ycbm]

Sorry if you found it difficult.

Some people near me are frightened of horses. They want the horses banned from a public access byway which used to be a train track, because they are frightened. Should the horses be banned?

No, their fear is unreasonable. They are safe. They can stand aside for a few seconds and feel even safer. The fear of being killed by a large dog is now very clearly not unreasonable.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I mean there's things you can do though without going through life thinking 'that's their problem if they're scared of dogs'. If I can see people are visibly uncomfortable or they or their friends or parents verbalise that they are scared of dogs/my breed, I can (and have done) visibly show the person that my dog is engaged with/has attention on me/can keep them very close to heel/put them in a static position as they pass/give loads of room/change direction etc and generally get thanked for it. I wouldn't just walk on thinking 'hey ho'.

I do that even when walking the JRT, and make sure that OH remembers to do it as well (he sometimes has to be nudged ). I just presume that someone out walking without a dog might be scared of dogs, and I keep her well over away to one side just in case.

As it happens, she's very people friendly, but why should we dog owners presume that all other people like dogs?

 

[SadKen]

No, their fear is unreasonable. They are safe. They can stand aside for a few seconds and feel even safer. The fear of being killed by a large dog is now very clearly not unreasonable.
.

How many people have been killed by a large dog, out in public that wasn’t theirs?

See my post above re the list of bully attacks. For bullies in the last year, it’s one - and that was the dog walker of the dog, known to it, supposedly in control of it.

Can you not stand aside of a large unmuzzled dog and feel safe?

How reasonable is your fear on that basis?

 

[ycbm]

Can you not stand aside of a large unmuzzled dog and feel safe?

Clearly not when the dog can take it into its head any moment to chase you.

Have you even looked at the video of the woman above being attacked?

I have been precious close to that situation with a man walking 3 rottweilers. He just about held onto them but it was a close thing.
.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

We already have laws about dogs needing to have collars and identity tags when out in public, also being on leads when on footpaths and public places. There is also the requirement for dogs to be microchipped but how often are any of these enforced. Very, very rarely. Police are rarely interested in dog attacks either unless it is directly on a human. They should be able to act if someone is scared of attack but don't. If the laws we have were properly enforced it would be a huge step forward but pigs are more likely to fly.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Can you not stand aside of a large unmuzzled dog and feel safe?

Can you guarantee that the person attempting to control (or not) can actually hold it? Many of these dogs weigh more than their handlers, they only have to get them off balance and the dog is loose.

 

[SadKen]

Clearly not when the dog can take it into its head any moment to chase you.

Have you even looked at the video of the woman above being attacked?

I have been precious close to that situation with a man walking 3 rottweilers. He just about held onto them but it was a close thing.
.

That’s covered under current legislation in both cases, as Cauda Equina referenced. Your experience with the Rottweilers is *reasonable apprehension* that a dog will cause injury. In the video obviously it’s an aggravated offence as the dog did cause injury.

Re Erin’s post, I don’t disagree but that is also the case for horses as per my comparative illustration above. My point is that we cannot reasonably legislate changes that impede on an entire population to try and reduce the fear that some people feel. Is it ‘reasonable apprehension ‘ if a massive dog is slavering and growling and it’s owner can barely hold it? Yes. Covered in legislation. Is it ,reasonable apprehension’ if a dog is walking quietly on a lead or under close control in a public place eg a nearly deserted country park, as I walk in, without a muzzle? In that case, the average person isn’t going to be frightened, and legislation isn’t required.

You could say big dogs need to be muzzled but that’s going to create the same issues as banned breeds. What’s ‘big’? That’s before you get to the fact that the law won’t be obeyed or enforced and is therefore pointless.

A muzzle law is not a solution. That is the point I am making.

 

[ycbm]

changes that impede on an entire population

They don't even affect a majorly of dog owners, never mind impede on an entire population.

Your bias is very evident.

 

[Clodagh]

When anyone comes in my house, my dogs are away. Mainly because they are too friendly and moult a lot but Ffee is a grumbly misery. If I’m out walking and I see someone who is scared I get my dogs out the way. I am totally opposed to muzzling them.
i agree with sale ads being banned. Although I don’t know how you’d find out if you actually wanted a puppy?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Babies and children are killed by many different breeds - you’d have to have them all muzzled around children, from Akita to JRT, if you wanted to truly guarantee children’s safety. And how would you police dogs being muzzled when a friend’s kid comes over?

I do agree with no more than 2 dogs per adult though, but I think this should apply to all large breeds, with exemptions for qualified folk and people who use them for work and sport.


Last month, on a new walk route, I met two bullies who were very friendly but not boisterous, and one Presa who kept watching me, tail up, until I was out of sight. Definitely wouldn’t have called him cuddly.

I love a mastiff, but the only thing stopping them from becoming the next bully is that they’re currently out of fashion (and that the bully hasn’t been banned yet).

Besides, I’m pretty sure XL bullies qualify to be called mastiffs.

No, they certainly do not qualify to be called Mastiffs.

Nope. Definitely not.

Do not drag mastiffs into it. Thank you.

This.

What do you mean "don't drag mastiffs into it"? This is a thread on fatal dog attacks, and several mastiffs and mastiff-crosses (Neapolitan, American bulldog, Bullmastiffs, Presas, etc.) have killed people in the UK. They have "standoffishness to strangers" in their breed standard. They were bred to be dogs that could guard, and therefore kill if necessary. I have nothing against mastiffs - my favourite breeds are all mastiffs - but they're very powerful animals and should be considered accordingly.

XL bullies are partially descended from American bulldogs, a mastiff breed. They have the features of a mastiff based on size, head and muzzle shape, and general appearance. Both mastiffs and XL bullies have been used as weapons/guard dogs.

The only real argument against bullies being mastiffs is that bullies are supposed to be friendly to strangers, but I presume that's not the line of thinking you're going for.

That still does not make a XL Bully a Mastiff, a molosser, sure. That's not "the only real argument" by the way.

If I were to mate my Lab and my Cane Corso (both are females and I wouldn't do this even if I could!) the resulting dog is not a Mastiff.

I do agree that Mastiffs have a certain history and we're bred and selected for certain traits and jobs. They're not for everyone. They're not for most people. They certainly do need to be considered accordingly. I took an entirely different approach and focus to training my CC vs my Lab. I hope that CC's never come into fashion, but they have a bit in some cases, not to the extent of Bully types though. You can find many in shelters, or abandoned because owners bit off more than they could chew and probably would've been better off with a different breed or no dog at all!

Most dogs can kill if necessary, but having that guarding instinct takes careful management and training. I think we often take certain types of dogs or breeds of dogs and place them into a context/home/surrounding that sets them up for failure. People just see that they like the look of a certain dog or the idea of one and get said dog. They're just too accessible.

I cringe at a lot of the social media that features CC's. People promote aggression, a certain look, and appeal to unsavory crowds, IMO. People want a dog as a show of toughness of being a bada** but don't know their arse form their elbow when it comes to managing such a creature.

So many people out there that have dogs, shouldn't. Which is not as bad with certain breeds or sizes, but when it comes to some breeds and sizes, it's disastrous and/or deadly.

The Chihuahua is an aggressive little demon, but you can also overpower one easily as a human with decent strength. Can't do that with a XL Bully.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I always give ample space and respect to someone if they're afraid of my dog(s). If someone said they had to be muzzled to be in some shared space, I wouldn't necessarily object either. If I can find one that's comfortable enough for the dog, and it's a prerequisite to be in a shared space, I've got no qualms. Even though neither dog has no history of biting or aggressive behavior(s).

 

[SadKen]

They don't even affect a majorly of dog owners, never mind impede on an entire population.

Your bias is very evident.

How would A blanket requirement for all breeds to be muzzled in all public places at all times NOT impede the entire population of dog owners.

Please explain how it would not?

Ill ignore your last sentence as I think you haven’t understood what is actually being discussed here.

 

[SadKen]

I always give ample space and respect to someone if they're afraid of my dog(s). If someone said they had to be muzzled to be in some shared space, I wouldn't necessarily object either. If I can find one that's comfortable enough for the dog, and it's a prerequisite to be in a shared space, I've got no qualms. Even though neither dog has no history of biting or aggressive behavior(s).

I’m supportive of dog free space eg on busy beaches in summer. There may be an argument for limited muzzled dog spaces too, where it’s busy or there is a proven issue, and police are prepared to monitor it. I don’t object as long as I have somewhere to go that isn’t muzzled, just as I have beach choices in the summer that take dogs.

 

[splashgirl45]

The trouble is there are already laws in place regarding out of control dogs but how often are they enforced? It’s only when a person is injured that the police will do anything . If a dog attacks another dog then IMO it is out of control and there should be police action against the owner of the aggressive dog. The laws are there but not being enforced .. so expecting all dogs to be muzzled would mean that people like me would muzzle their dogs and the dogs we are all worried about wouldn’t be, so I can see saddens point

 

[marmalade76]

How many of us/you have dogs roaming around when there are visitors/family/kids or kids' pals around? I am not inundated with visitors but if I do have them, I put the dogs away so that no one is made to feel uncomfortable, dogs, people or me. One dog in particular is fairly neutral to people outside the home but not averse to a head scratch, but is visibly upset and grumbly when other people are in the home, even people he was previously friendly with. The small one goes ballistic with happiness and knocks things/people over and the middle one is just an overbearing oaf with no boundaries and will climb on peoples' laps despite being around 40kg. So, not really fun for anyone.

When I look at, for instance, yer man with the Romanian rescue, he is missing all the big flashing warning signs that she is deeply unhappy, particularly when there are visitors and a camera shoved in her face, but carries on oblivious and thousands of followers think it is SO CUTE/HE IS DOING SUCH A GOOD JOB. He is just very lucky that she is so scared she hasn't bitten anyone.
Bull breeds aside, I think there needs to be much more education and awareness about how we and kids act around dogs in the home, when sights, sounds, smells and movement can all be very triggering. 'But they're just one of the family' is a nice sentiment but it is not an appropriate situation for a lot of dogs, my mother just got bit by a cousin's dog this week because it was shooed off a chair by the family for her to sit down. Massively unfair on both the dog and my mother. Tiny dog, still crap handling of the situation.

My dog's bed is in a cage which can be shut if she bothers visitors (in fact it's the only time the cage is ever shut) and she never goes up stairs or on the furniture. I agree that dogs should not be treated like one of the family, they should be treated like dogs.

 

[Chucho]

I've been following this thread for a while... we've only been out of the UK for 3 years, yet this isn't a dog landscape that I recognise! I'd never heard of an XL bully before this thread, let alone seen one. And we lived/spent significant time in Berks, Surrey, Cornwall, and Cambridgeshire. When did they start becoming so popular? Is it part of the post COVID/lockdown puppy boom?

The only time I met an American Bull Terrier in the UK was about 15 years ago. I was on my own walking our dog, A, at the time on a quiet trail when this strange dog approached. There was no owner in sight. It was a memorable moment because both dogs were large and white but the strange dog was bigger than our boxer, who was a solid chunk. I have a vivid recollection of A freezing, moving very slowly to sit down and turning his head to stare at me. I took my cue from him and froze too, while the stranger walked up to us and then very deliberately urinated right next to A. We were both stuck in our poses while the stranger walked slowly around us and then after a while - it felt like forever, but probably only a matter of minutes - thankfully his owner appeared on horseback. I don't know how long we'd have been stuck there with him like that otherwise! We got chatting, she explained his breeding and background (a rescue) and we went on our respective ways. I was younger then, I'd probably have told her how absolutely terrified I had been now. He had this aura about him that was just so menacing and I honestly felt if either A or I had moved he would have gone for us. Anyway, I've met some perfectly nice ABs since then but I will never forget meeting that one!

The only other bad dog-human experience I've had was with a lab that lived several doors down from us. They'd got it from puppy and used to leave it in the front garden but their kids wouldn't always close the gate and so it would get out. It was fear aggressive and extremely territorial about the shared path in front of the house (we all had to use the path to get to our homes and it was fenced on both sides). We got home one day to find our neighbour unable to access her house with her children as the lab was rushing and barking at them. I think we ended up carrying the children over the fence as far away from the dog as possible and eventually it took itself home. I only mention it as it goes without saying that any dog in the wrong ownership can be dangerous, but some breeds definitely need more experienced owners than others and this is where I believe BSL and licensing has a role to play. If it can be policed properly. And clearly something is very wrong with the current system.

Re the sled dog comments from upthread, we live in prime skijoring/sledding country and the teams also tend to go out here in the early evening when there are few people around. Where we are, most people are training dogs in pairs or max four. The dogs are very stimulated by the whole thing. We don't take our dogs out when they're practising for that reason. The larger dog teams that are used to take tourists out are much more chilled, presumably because they're in consistent work. In summer they seem to get walked two per person (on harnesses attached to a waist belt).

 

[ycbm]

How would A blanket requirement for all breeds to be muzzled in all public places at all times NOT impede the entire population of dog owners.

Please explain how it would not?

Nobody has suggested a blanket requirement to muzzle all breeds, only those easily capable of ripping out the throat of an adult.

What is a light cage muzzle actually inhibiting other than biting other dogs and people?

 

[Cortez]

I wonder why people in the UK are so opposed to dog licensing? My 3 are all licensed, microchipped (and registered to me on the database) as required by law. We have an active and dedicated local dog warden who is accessible and efficient, it all works.

 

[some show]

How do you choose which breeds need the muzzles, though? Especially when you've got mixed-breed bulls coming in quite a variety of shapes and sizes. Would you apply the rule to dogs over a certain height/weight maybe? What about bull lurchers who can be very large dogs with big bully heads, but a total mixture of genetics, would they come under the muzzle rule for having bull in them?

Just to note, I have nothing against muzzles, my dog wears a muzzle in public at all times to protect felines although he's the biggest softest dope towards humans.

 

[bonny]

I wonder why people in the UK are so opposed to dog licensing? My 3 are all licensed, microchipped (and registered to me on the database) as required by law. We have an active and dedicated local dog warden who is accessible and efficient, it all works.

Bit different if you live in say Birmingham…..licensing will make diddly squat of a difference and no one is going to employ armies of dog wardens to be accessible to all.

 

[some show]

I wonder why people in the UK are so opposed to dog licensing? My 3 are all licensed, microchipped (and registered to me on the database) as required by law. We have an active and dedicated local dog warden who is accessible and efficient, it all works.

I'd be well up for licensing, but my (big) county doesn't even have a dog warden anymore because the council axed the role. I just don't think they'd spare the resources to be able to police it like yours.