Cortez
Tough but Fair
Then perhaps the legislation needs to be better administered?
Another fatal dog attack
- Thread starter SilverLinings
- Start date
JJS
Well-Known Member
Or perhaps it’s time to accept it doesn’t work and look to other solutions instead. I don’t claim to have a magic wand to wave to fix the problem, but I’ve yet to see a shred of evidence to convince me that BSL is a good or effective approach to reducing fatal dog attacks.
stangs
Well-Known Member
I don't dislike them - the local lot are all exceedingly polite and chilled, none have cropped ears, and there's one bitch in particular who's a role model for how dogs should behave around children - but they wouldn't make my top 10, or even top 20 of breeds. Neither do pitbulls FWIW.
That's a shame. Dog genetics is a really interesting field, regardless of whether or not you support BSL.
It's not as simple as "bullies are like this because they're bred to fight". No dogfighter breeds a human aggressive dog (look at the Tosa - that's the dog fighting dog, and yet the breed standard states that aggression be a disqualifying fault). People who are breeding dogs to be protective aren't breeding dogs with a sudden onset of aggression, because they need something controllable and predictable. No one wants to breed a dog who's aggressive to its owner, and yet many of these attacks have been directed towards owners. Quite clearly, more's going on than breeder selection.
Do you think staffies should be banned then as they're pitbull types? What about the American bulldog, the Rottweiler, or the Cane Corso; they've all killed and mauled numerous people? Yes, there's a higher incidence rate among XL bullies
stangs
Well-Known Member
With how little funding dog wardens, and the police generally, get in the UK, legislation's certainly not going to be better administered here.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
If. BSL. Worked. We. Wouldn't. Be. Having. This. Discussion.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I used to have rottweilers in the US, they're nice dogs, although I think the temperaments are better/more emphasis in the US than here, where I've seen more dodgy ones.
I don't think that the law has been properly applied, should we just throw up the hands and say "doesn't work; just carry on". It's ridiculous to imply that anyone who has been killed by, say, a poodle has been discriminated against; that implies that bull breeds are being unfairly picked on.
There are plenty of dog breeds to choose from, no one has to have a pitbull.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Then make it work. Your full stop function seems to be seizuring.
JJS
Well-Known Member
How? It’s a genuine question. No one seems to have made it work so far. I think that any attempt would be like flogging a dead horse, because the concept itself is fundamentally flawed.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Yeah CC, hurry up and make it work from your position as Rishi Sunak in disguise 
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
I must be also, because I completely missed my successful election as a public representative.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Yeah CC, hurry up and make it work from your position as Rishi Sunak in disguise
I may be pretty short, but I keep my ankles covered.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
Any dog can be dangerous, but a bit like guns its how they are kept and used, and small dogs depending on the victim can cause serious damage.
People think they know how to keep at dog, every one has them, its now normal to people with up to three, in normal family homes. Breeder who have made over £2k a puppy are often not bothered where they go, I have only bought two but no one including two well known dog charities,have ever questioned my competance.
Perhaps its time for every dog to be insured, they are supposed to be chipped anyway, and you are fined if they are not, and to get lower insurance to have to take a certificate of competance. No chip, no insurance, dog PTS and a huge fine, a bit like parking fines it funds the wardens.
The worst offenders will always want them, but if you make it more expensive there will be less of a market for puppies in general.
People think they know how to keep at dog, every one has them, its now normal to people with up to three, in normal family homes. Breeder who have made over £2k a puppy are often not bothered where they go, I have only bought two but no one including two well known dog charities,have ever questioned my competance.
Perhaps its time for every dog to be insured, they are supposed to be chipped anyway, and you are fined if they are not, and to get lower insurance to have to take a certificate of competance. No chip, no insurance, dog PTS and a huge fine, a bit like parking fines it funds the wardens.
The worst offenders will always want them, but if you make it more expensive there will be less of a market for puppies in general.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Ah, yes, insurance. Time to check the small print.
See what is not insured.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Who’s been crossing dogs with African Wild Dogs?! They’re not even the same genus.Ah, yes, insurance. Time to check the small print.
See what is not insured.
Prudential are the underwriters for these policies.
VetsMediCover - FAQs
Your questions answered. Please Contact Us if there is anything else you would like to know.www.vetsmedicover.co.uk
honetpot
Well-Known Member
The whole point if it was illegal to have a dog without insurance, and that would include biting etc, a bit like car insurance, where you are covered for third party death and injury, the insurance market will decide how much the product would cost, and asses the risk.
'Publishing their findings in Scientific Reports last year, they estimated direct costs of treatment to be more than £25m for the financial year 2017-18. Estimates for total costs of hospital attendance and admissions amounted to more than £70m for the same period'
even if there isn't a death its costing tax payers money. I am not even thinking about the emotional trauma if its a family pet, that has killed your child.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Hmm, interesting. RSPCA who are against BSL, breeds excluded from their insurance
American Bull Dog, American Bully, American Indian Dog, American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Bandog, Boerboel, Bully Kutta, Canary Dog, Cane Corso, Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, Dingo, Dogo Argentino, Dogue Brasileros, Fila Brasileiro, Gull Dong, Husky Wolf Hybrid, Irish Staffordshire Blue Bull Terrier, Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Pit Bull Terrier, Saarlooswolfhound, Tosa, Tosa Inu, Wolf Hybrid, Wolfdog.
www.rspca.org.uk
American Bull Dog, American Bully, American Indian Dog, American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Bandog, Boerboel, Bully Kutta, Canary Dog, Cane Corso, Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, Dingo, Dogo Argentino, Dogue Brasileros, Fila Brasileiro, Gull Dong, Husky Wolf Hybrid, Irish Staffordshire Blue Bull Terrier, Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Pit Bull Terrier, Saarlooswolfhound, Tosa, Tosa Inu, Wolf Hybrid, Wolfdog.
Pet Insurance Quotes - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk
Protect your pet with our Defaqto 5-star rated pet insurance. Choose from three lifetime cover levels. Each policy helps our mission against animal cruelty
www.rspca.org.uk
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
Just as an aside, one of the labs I rehomed as a 3 year old 3 years ago is probably the most stranger aggressive dog we have ever owned, and we have had many different breeds but mostly labs, collies and JRTs. If we lived in a suburban area it is very likely I would have returned her to her breeder who I got her from as keeping other dog walkers safe from her and still giving her a good quality of life would have been very challenging.
She was being rehomed as a 'failed' show dog apparently (gullible old me) as she just did not like showing, my best guess now is she took badly to being man handled by judges etc and anyone else who approached her that she didn't know. I should have guessed when her breeder brought her to us for a meet and greet the dog's body language was extremely tense and fearful, we were instructed just to sit quietly and let he approach us , which too be honest we would have done anyway with an unknown dog in our house. She also told us she was very much a woman's dog and did not particularly like men, but would 'come round' , 3 men in the house at that time and me. 
That dog now follows my husband and son around like her life depends on being by their side at all times. She is very sweet with me but given the choice she will go bounding off to be with the menfolk (traitor!)
Fortunately because of where we live we are able to keep strangers 'safe' from her and have plenty of room to exercise her off lead without seeing another human, thank goodness. She will, and has attacked three neighbours when we first had her, only for my son shouting at one to remain still he was able to catch her up and pull her off him, one managed to leap over a gate to get away from her, the other time my husband shouted at a man in a jeep getting out of his car on our driveway to get back in as the dog sprang at him. Luckily all 3 were farmers who (around here anyway) tend to like a dog with a bite on their own premises so were very good about it when we explained the situation and quickly changed tack with her training and freedom in certain areas. We do not regret getting her for one moment, she is a great big cuddly lump, but it has taken time and patience to get her to how she is today compared with the dog that first came to us.
I cannot believe for one moment she has any genetics in her breeding that will have led to such a high aggression toward unknown people, so I am just pointing out any breed can and would kill if it happens to have that quirk in its temperament. So if we ban all those 'dangerous' breeds what happens to the other breeds that also might have an aggressive streak for whatever reason. Will they end up being banned too? Or do you just ban the most likely to attack breeds and weed out the odd rogue lab/poodle/terrier or whatever and shoot it?
She was being rehomed as a 'failed' show dog apparently (gullible old me
) as she just did not like showing, my best guess now is she took badly to being man handled by judges etc and anyone else who approached her that she didn't know. I should have guessed when her breeder brought her to us for a meet and greet the dog's body language was extremely tense and fearful, we were instructed just to sit quietly and let he approach us , which too be honest we would have done anyway with an unknown dog in our house. She also told us she was very much a woman's dog and did not particularly like men, but would 'come round' , 3 men in the house at that time and me. That dog now follows my husband and son around like her life depends on being by their side at all times. She is very sweet with me but given the choice she will go bounding off to be with the menfolk (traitor!)Fortunately because of where we live we are able to keep strangers 'safe' from her and have plenty of room to exercise her off lead without seeing another human, thank goodness. She will, and has attacked three neighbours when we first had her, only for my son shouting at one to remain still he was able to catch her up and pull her off him, one managed to leap over a gate to get away from her, the other time my husband shouted at a man in a jeep getting out of his car on our driveway to get back in as the dog sprang at him. Luckily all 3 were farmers who (around here anyway) tend to like a dog with a bite on their own premises so were very good about it when we explained the situation and quickly changed tack with her training and freedom in certain areas. We do not regret getting her for one moment, she is a great big cuddly lump, but it has taken time and patience to get her to how she is today compared with the dog that first came to us.
I cannot believe for one moment she has any genetics in her breeding that will have led to such a high aggression toward unknown people, so I am just pointing out any breed can and would kill if it happens to have that quirk in its temperament. So if we ban all those 'dangerous' breeds what happens to the other breeds that also might have an aggressive streak for whatever reason. Will they end up being banned too? Or do you just ban the most likely to attack breeds and weed out the odd rogue lab/poodle/terrier or whatever and shoot it?
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I think you'd be a GREAT public servant, actually
. Looking in to the UK from over here, it doesn't seem like there is much attention paid to legislation concerning dogs at all, so it's not surprising that things "don't work".Spain is just about to/has just made it a requirement to have public liability insurance in place in order to own a dog.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
I think you'd be a GREAT public servant, actually
Spain is just about to/has just made it a requirement to have public liability insurance in place in order to own a dog.
I mean it's not the only useless piece of legislation.
I read my dog's PL insurance policy (a requirement for the event I was travelling to) when bored, waiting for a boat, if he'd injured a family member or someone I was travelling with, it would have been voided.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Presumably you don’t stand on street corners with her frightening the populace?Just as an aside, one of the labs I rehomed as a 3 year old 3 years ago is probably the most stranger aggressive dog we have ever owned, and we have had many different breeds but mostly labs, collies and JRTs. If we lived in a suburban area it is very likely I would have returned her to her breeder who I got her from as keeping other dog walkers safe from her and still giving her a good quality of life would have been very challenging.
She was being rehomed as a 'failed' show dog apparently (gullible old me
Fortunately because of where we live we are able to keep strangers 'safe' from her and have plenty of room to exercise her off lead without seeing another human, thank goodness. She will, and has attacked three neighbours when we first had her, only for my son shouting at one to remain still he was able to catch her up and pull her off him, one managed to leap over a gate to get away from her, the other time my husband shouted at a man in a jeep getting out of his car on our driveway to get back in as the dog sprang at him. Luckily all 3 were farmers who (around here anyway) tend to like a dog with a bite on their own premises so were very good about it when we explained the situation and quickly changed tack with her training and freedom in certain areas. We do not regret getting her for one moment, she is a great big cuddly lump, but it has taken time and patience to get her to how she is today compared with the dog that first came to us.
I cannot believe for one moment she has any genetics in her breeding that will have led to such a high aggression toward unknown people, so I am just pointing out any breed can and would kill if it happens to have that quirk in its temperament. So if we ban all those 'dangerous' breeds what happens to the other breeds that also might have an aggressive streak for whatever reason. Will they end up being banned too? Or do you just ban the most likely to attack breeds and weed out the odd rogue lab/poodle/terrier or whatever and shoot it?
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
So, where would you look for a responsibly bred XL bully? One that is not distorted from a health point of view and has several generations of sound genetics behind it?
Anyone?
Anyone?
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
I saw one in the dog park earlier, wasn't paying any attention to the other large dogs or the multiple tiny yappy dogs in the small dog part, or any of the people around.
You couldn't pay me to go in a dog park but it wasn't causing a problem or frightening anyone to my eyes.
Not all gangs of teenagers hanging about on street corners are going to stiff you either. Although we might be frightened of them, based on appearances.
You couldn't pay me to go in a dog park but it wasn't causing a problem or frightening anyone to my eyes.
Not all gangs of teenagers hanging about on street corners are going to stiff you either. Although we might be frightened of them, based on appearances.
stangs
Well-Known Member
I know of a bloke from whom I would happily buy if I wanted a bully. His breeding stock's been hip and elbow tested; he's very clear that he breeds primarily for temperment, and then for structure; and I had a glance through the pedigrees of his bitches the other day and couldn't see any inbreeding or known Kimbo offspring. Not going to post a link to his page though, as I have no doubt people would take one look at his dogs' pictures and say they look threatening/dangerous (when in reality they're staring at the flirt pole behind the camera).
If I didn't know of him, I would go to the local bully meet-up and ask around there. That's where you'll get people who're genuinely interested in the breed, and whose dogs are at least safe enough to be in that kind of envrionment.
(P.S. Not getting many responses as to where to find a breeder has nothing to do with the breed, and everything to do with the fact that most posters on this thread want nothing to do with them.)
P3LH
Well-Known Member
From my own recent experience where one charged at me from a distance, and jumped up at me barking and growling - I am really starting to wonder if, in addition to many other factors, reactivity in the dogs is a leading factor behind the high attack stats. Breeders breeding for what they perceive as drive and guarding ability in bully’s seem to be about producing the most explosive animal, which is very different. Combined with everything that vaguely fits the breed title being bred with no thought to the actual individuals. It’s just a theory. It was the mere sight of me approaching that sent the dog into a tail spin, after watching what I was doing for a while in a typically ‘nervy dog’ manner.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Oh yes, absolutely, a lot of people confuse 'insecurity' with 'protection', 'nerve' with 'drive' etc.
Truly balanced, confident dogs just don't behave that way.
Truly balanced, confident dogs just don't behave that way.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
You have misunderstood me. I actually was emphasising the 45% because I was stunned it was so high, not because I believed it to be low.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I think the particular weaponisation of XLBullies and the breeding of them specifically for the purpose of intimidation and status puts them in a whole other category. It’s the symbolism of them as much as anything else that needs to be addressed. And that means outlawing them. They are bred for one thing and one thing only - the other breeds you mention were not.
There is only one way to fix this particular problem I’m afraid- knee jerk or not.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Well, that's a lie. You think all the well-mannered bullies that posters have mentioned were also bred to be weapons? You can't omit them from discussions on the breed just because they don't suit the narrative.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Rather than calling me a liar- perhaps you’d rather rephrase it to ‘you’re misinformed’ ??
Which I may be. But I’d wager the breeder you mention is one out of a majority who is aiming to breed responsibly.
cbmcts
Well-Known Member
Thing is, there is already legislation in place in the UK, including BSL and has been since 1991. It covers all dogs not just banned breeds and is in place in both public and private spaces https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public
We don't need more knee jerk laws - how's that worked over the past 40 years? - there needs to be political will to enforce current legislation and yes, that may mean a tax of some sort on dog owners to raise funds to enable that. Reluctantly, I'd support that as long as the funds were ring fenced for dog management, not just enforcement but also education.
I'll admit I'm not a huge fan of xl bullies - the few I've met have all been incredibly nervous which worries me just as much, if not more than obvious aggression - but I'd be a huge hypocrite if I supported any type of BSL after opposing it for more than 40 years! I also think that BSL has been proven worldwide to be ineffective.
We don't need more knee jerk laws - how's that worked over the past 40 years? - there needs to be political will to enforce current legislation and yes, that may mean a tax of some sort on dog owners to raise funds to enable that. Reluctantly, I'd support that as long as the funds were ring fenced for dog management, not just enforcement but also education.
I'll admit I'm not a huge fan of xl bullies - the few I've met have all been incredibly nervous which worries me just as much, if not more than obvious aggression - but I'd be a huge hypocrite if I supported any type of BSL after opposing it for more than 40 years! I also think that BSL has been proven worldwide to be ineffective.