Another fatal dog attack

[Clodagh]

I know of a bloke from whom I would happily buy if I wanted a bully. His breeding stock's been hip and elbow tested; he's very clear that he breeds primarily for temperment, and then for structure; and I had a glance through the pedigrees of his bitches the other day and couldn't see any inbreeding or known Kimbo offspring. Not going to post a link to his page though, as I have no doubt people would take one look at his dogs' pictures and say they look threatening/dangerous (when in reality they're staring at the flirt pole behind the camera).

If I didn't know of him, I would go to the local bully meet-up and ask around there. That's where you'll get people who're genuinely interested in the breed, and whose dogs are at least safe enough to be in that kind of envrionment.

(P.S. Not getting many responses as to where to find a breeder has nothing to do with the breed, and everything to do with the fact that most posters on this thread want nothing to do with them.)

Don’t get me wrong I’m not in the market for one. I’d rather own, and have as much use for, an AK47 with no safety.
But I’m impressed that anyone breeds these dogs with temperament in mind. I honestly thought everyone bred them to be scary/intimidating/dangerous. I have never seen one behaving in any way I would consider normal, although I grant you I see very few.

 

[I'm Dun]

Don’t get me wrong I’m not in the market for one. I’d rather own, and have as much use for, an AK47 with no safety.
But I’m impressed that anyone breeds these dogs with temperament in mind. I honestly thought everyone bred them to be scary/intimidating/dangerous. I have never seen one behaving in any way I would consider normal, although I grant you I see very few.

And why is he breeding them? What purpose do they have? They aren't pet dogs given the size and strength and the traits they have been bred for. And who is he breeding them for? Do responsible owners want one? I doubt it. There are other large breeds better suited to pet homes if thats what people want. Why would anyone want one and the stigma that comes with it? Makes no sense to me.

 

[stangs]

And why is he breeding them? What purpose do they have? They aren't pet dogs given the size and strength and the traits they have been bred for. And who is he breeding them for? Do responsible owners want one? I doubt it. There are other large breeds better suited to pet homes if thats what people want. Why would anyone want one and the stigma that comes with it? Makes no sense to me.

Why does anyone breed anything? He likes the breed, and he only sells to pet/family homes so clearly there are people looking for them. He’s not breeding high drive dogs - he’s focusing on breeding chilled and friendly dogs, so, in that sense, they are pet dogs.

Why does anyone buy a GSD when Golden Retrievers are the same size and better suited to pet homes?

As regards stigma, I’ve watched several interactions with the bitch I mentioned earlier where children have asked to approach her. Their parents have never pulled them away, so clearly not everyone shares the stigma. It probably helps that you don’t hear of dog attacks in my area. And, because bullies are also quite tightly woven into certain subcultures (as in hip hop, not drug dealing), people interested in those subcultures will view them positively too.

 

[stangs]

A more balanced view of bullies in this article:

Bully XL owner whose dogs ‘stopped rape’ says breed are ‘walking weapons’

Sid Costello, who has three Bully XLs, says you can’t blame the dogs but the owners

www.independent.co.uk

 

[skinnydipper]

And why is he breeding them? What purpose do they have? They aren't pet dogs given the size and strength and the traits they have been bred for. And who is he breeding them for? Do responsible owners want one? I doubt it. There are other large breeds better suited to pet homes if thats what people want. Why would anyone want one and the stigma that comes with it? Makes no sense to me.

Naïve, inexperienced people sucked in by all that nanny dog nonsense, a phrase coined by a newspaper (New York Times 1971). Incidentally the nanny dog line they have been fed doesn’t seem to be working out so well with so many being rehomed because the dog is not safe around kids.

Or as a status symbol, idiots think it looks cool strutting about with one of those brutes at the end of a lead

Or to threaten and intimidate people.

 

[skinnydipper]

Why does anyone breed anything? He likes the breed, and he only sells to pet/family homes so clearly there are people looking for them. He’s not breeding high drive dogs - he’s focusing on breeding chilled and friendly dogs, so, in that sense, they are pet dogs.

Why does anyone buy a GSD when Golden Retrievers are the same size and better suited to pet homes?

As regards stigma, I’ve watched several interactions with the bitch I mentioned earlier where children have asked to approach her. Their parents have never pulled them away, so clearly not everyone shares the stigma. It probably helps that you don’t hear of dog attacks in my area. And, because bullies are also quite tightly woven into certain subcultures (as in hip hop, not drug dealing), people interested in those subcultures will view them positively too.

You put a lot of effort into researching (and defending) a breed you're not a fan of.

 

[ycbm]

A more balanced view of bullies in this article:

Bully XL owner whose dogs ‘stopped rape’ says breed are ‘walking weapons’

Sid Costello, who has three Bully XLs, says you can’t blame the dogs but the owners

www.independent.co.uk

Did you read the article? The headline is

Bully XL owner whose dogs ‘stopped rape’ says breed are ‘walking weapons’ in wrong hands

As someone said above. It isn't guns that kill people, it's people who kill people, but that doesn't mean we allow everyone to have a gun.




He goes on

“The amount of attacks that have happened I personally feel they are very close to banning the breed. But too many people have them."

“Nothing is regulated in breeding. Some people want their dogs to be aggressive so they breed two dogs with high prey drive so the pups are going to be aggressive."

“If you breed a fighting dog it will fight"

“These are powerful dogs; they are walking weapons. If it’s over 50kg it is dangerous.”
.

 

[cauda equina]

Did you read the article? The headline is



As someone said above. It isn't guns that kill people, it's people who kill people, but that doesn't mean we allow everyone to have a gun.




He goes on

“The amount of attacks that have happened I personally feel they are very close to banning the breed. But too many people have them."

“Nothing is regulated in breeding. Some people want their dogs to be aggressive so they breed two dogs with high prey drive so the pups are going to be aggressive."

“If you breed a fighting dog it will fight"

“These are powerful dogs; they are walking weapons. If it’s over 50kg it is dangerous.”
.

And one of his dogs is called Menace

 

[stangs]

Naïve, inexperienced people sucked in by all that nanny dog nonsense, a phrase coined by a newspaper (New York Times 1971). Incidentally the nanny dog line they have been fed doesn’t seem to be working out so well with so many being rehomed because the dog is not safe around kids.

Or as a status symbol, idiots think it looks cool strutting about with one of those brutes at the end of a lead

Or to threaten and intimidate people.

The nanny dog line hasn’t really been used at all around bullies. And people buy the dogs for other reasons than what you say, but you wouldn’t know that because all you’ve researched about the breed is DM articles.

You put a lot of effort into researching a breed you're not a fan of.

God forbid people be educated about what they’re talking about.

Did you read the article? The headline is



As someone said above. It isn't guns that kill people, it's people who kill people, but that doesn't mean we allow everyone to have a gun.




He goes on

“The amount of attacks that have happened I personally feel they are very close to banning the breed. But too many people have them."

“Nothing is regulated in breeding. Some people want their dogs to be aggressive so they breed two dogs with high prey drive so the pups are going to be aggressive."

“If you breed a fighting dog it will fight"

“These are powerful dogs; they are walking weapons. If it’s over 50kg it is dangerous.”
.

Cherry picking quotes isn’t cute.

He also makes the interesting point that the dogs were around pre pandemic, but you never heard about attacks back then. He clearly states that he blames owners and not the breed. And he says some people are breeding them irresponsibly - i.e that breeding regulations could be a fair better solution than an outright ban.

 

[skinnydipper]

behaviour which isn’t dissimilar to behaviour which has been linked to specific genes in the Cocker Spaniel

‘Rage syndrome is a label incorrectly applied to poorly understood dogs‘​

https://bvajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/vetr.3248

 

[skinnydipper]

but you wouldn’t know that because all you’ve researched about the breed is DM articles.

 

[ycbm]

Cherry picking quotes isn’t cute.

There was one after another after another, all supporting the "we don't allow people to have guns" argument.
.

 

[cauda equina]

Yeah no one's died, the DM made it all up

 

[skinnydipper]

The latter case follows a trend of behaviour which isn’t dissimilar to behaviour which has been linked to specific genes in the Cocker Spaniel, Mali, and bull terriers too I think

‘Rage syndrome is a label incorrectly applied to poorly understood dogs‘​

https://bvajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/vetr.3248

I've previously posted this

For Malinois lovers, for information.

Differences in Behavior and Activity Associated with a Poly(A) Expansion in the Dopamine Transporter in Belgian Malinois - PMC

In Belgian Malinois dogs, a 38-base pair variable number tandem repeat in the dopamine transporter gene (SLC6A3) is associated with behavior changes in Malinois. By additional sequencing in SLC6A3, we identified an intronic 12-nucleotide poly(A) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://vgl.sf.ucdavis.edu/test/behavior-propensity-belgian-malinois

God forbid people be educated about what they’re talking about.

Could you share a link to the bull terrier information please?

 

[twiggy2]

Now I am not a fan of XL bullies nor mastifs etc, I don't dislike them but slobber dogs are not for me nor all the loose skin and dogs that occupy so much space. I am not worried or fearful of them either.
I am not comfortable around any dog that gives of a vibe that makes me feel ill at ease either for myself or others.
I see how disproportionately XL bully and XL bully types are involved in aggression towards humans.
I also know people who like these types of dogs, the people are know are mostly responsible owners who like snobbery, goofballs of dogs with a size that makes people generally think twice about approaching the owners in a less than positive way.
The XL bully particularly has been done a disservice but less than responsible breeding by many, less than appropriate care and socialisation too plays a big part too.
Banning the breed would at least remove the law abiding naive, those that feel they can fix emotionally damaged dogs and many rehoming centres from housing and passing on these dogs so it would reduce numbers.
Is it fair on the well adjusted dogs? No
Is it fair in the responsible owners? No
But is it fair on the people who are killed and injured by these dogs each year to do nothing? No
At least if the numbers are reduced the attacks should also be reduced.
Its may not be the correct answer, as mentioned we still have pit bulls and other banned breeds in the country but the amount of tracks by them is now much lower.
The correct answer is to put down the people who knowingly breed any animal with a high likelihood of temperament of physical issues.

 

[Cortez]

The Xlbully may be a fairly recent phenomenon, but nearly 30 years ago I was volunteering at an animal shelter in the states that was dealing with the aftermath of a police operation breaking up a dog fighting ring in New Mexico. More than 50 dogs came in; they were huge, obviously totally dog-aggressive (and some were just aggressive), and all had to be put down. They looked very like xlbullys back then, and while some were very friendly and amenable they were not dogs that I would warm to. I felt very sorry for them, it’s not their fault, but why would you want a dog like that?

ETA: whilst guns require people to operate them, dogs don't need someone attached to be capable of hurting people.

 

[Cortez]

He also makes the interesting point that the dogs were around pre pandemic, but you never heard about attacks back then. He clearly states that he blames owners and not the breed. And he says some people are breeding them irresponsibly - i.e that breeding regulations could be a fair better solution than an outright ban.

You might not have heard about dog attacks pre pandemic, but they were still occuring, less frequently for sure, but there were fewer dogs about then too. Data from the last five years, from both the UK and the US, shows that 65%+ of fatal dog attacks were caused by Xlbully/pitbull type dogs. I wonder do you have any research to educate us all about the breeding of the dogs which have attacked people or other dogs/animals? Do you know if they were responsibly bred or otherwise?

P.S. I have had a conversation with the owner of two Xlbully dogs who informed me that they were nanny dogs, and the absolute best to have if you had young children. The conversation began with me asking why/how he had dogs with illegally cropped ears; never got an answer to that.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

with the owner of two Xlbully dogs who informed me that they were nanny dogs

Nanny dogs...dear God the self delusion of some people is remarkable to see.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Just stopped and had a chat with a guy round here with a fairly tall blue bull terrier type with four white socks and a white blaze. I think she could be described as an oversized staffy but who knows, I didn't ask. We did have a chat about the bully issue and perceptions as I'm a GSD person and he used to have Rottweilers.
She paid absolutely no attention to my dog (the one who generally sets others off) or me. They were studiously ignoring each other while we chatted.
He had one arm in a sling due to a sporting injury and easily handled her with his other.
He's not a city centre thug, he's an older man, on the committee of the local cricket club.

 

[JJS]

You put a lot of effort into researching (and defending) a breed you're not a fan of.

I know this was aimed at Stangs, but what a ludicrous statement to make. Shouldn’t we all put a lot of effort into researching topics we feel strongly about? How else can people reach an informed viewpoint?

I also have no desire to own an XL Bully (I like Staffies and Labs), but I’m still ardently against the expansion of BSL. It has nothing to do with being a fan of this breed, Pitbulls, or any other banned breed - it’s the concept of BSL itself I take issue with.

Do you know how I reached that viewpoint? By spending the 13 years since I first started studying Law researching the topic. Of late, that’s also included doing a lot of reading on XL Bullies. Doesn’t mean I want to take one home with me.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'm not a massive fan of them either, I just know how crap the governments in these islands are at a lot of animal-related legislation and how toothless the main bodies which are supposed to control dog breeding and registration, are.
The whole issue requires a national rethink on the way we breed, buy and keep dogs, not just bully owners, EVERYONE and it will mean change for everyone, but no one has the stomach for it.

I also worry about precedence being set and I remember similar panics 20 and 30 years ago.

 

[CorvusCorax]

And I am sure Cortez will confirm but there's a restricted breed list in ROI which is largely ignored and doesn't work or stop dog attacks. Boxers were on it until a breed club campaign got them removed.
There was a consultation on reviewing the legislation about five years ago and there's been very little update since.

 

[skinnydipper]

I know this was aimed at Stangs, but what a ludicrous statement to make. Shouldn’t we all put a lot of effort into researching topics we feel strongly about? How else can people reach an informed viewpoint?

I also have no desire to own an XL Bully (I like Staffies and Labs), but I’m still ardently against the expansion of BSL. It has nothing to do with being a fan of this breed, Pitbulls, or any other banned breed - it’s the concept of BSL itself I take issue with.

Do you know how I reached that viewpoint? By spending the 13 years since I first started studying Law researching the topic. Of late, that’s also included doing a lot of reading on XL Bullies. Doesn’t mean I want to take one home with me.

I am always interested in learning about dogs, including reading research and studies, and hearing the opinions of people with hands on experience of various breeds.

Are you able to share what you have learned about XL Bullies?

ETA. Also do you have any suggestions for reducing the number of deaths caused by dogs?

 

[Cortez]

And I am sure Cortez will confirm but there's a restricted breed list in ROI which is largely ignored and doesn't work or stop dog attacks. Boxers were on it until a breed club campaign got them removed.
There was a consultation on reviewing the legislation about five years ago and there's been very little update since.

There is restricted breed legislation, which is currently being talked about/updated (largely due to the kerfuffle over dog attacks in UK I expect), can't say that it doesn't stop dog attacks as there's nothing to compare it to (i.e. don't know how many there would be if there wasn't a restricted breed law). There has been a bit of an increase in attacks, but there has also been an increase in dog ownership, just like in the UK. There seem to be far fewer pitbull types about than what I see when in the UK, but that's just my own observation. Rescues have a high proportion of bull breeds, that and lurchers. We do have Dog Wardens and pounds, dog licensing and mandatory microchipping, and the warden does go around checking. I rarely see muzzled Restricted Breed dogs, but I have seen some complying.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

My two pennies worth below

I think I am 50/50 on banning them. Sometimes I think that causes more problems, like cross breeding to try and make it a "different" dog or people just ignoring the law.

I think there should be mandatory jail time for the owners where its shown that the dogs were not trained, the owner did not know the breed etc. When they attack a person. There should be a mandatory fine for attacking live stock.

Honestly I have never met an XL but I have been nipped/bitten by my grampys gun dog, who was a springer, it was my fault, I knew not to go near him him the dog was on his lap but I did anyway and bent down to give grampy a kiss. The dog nipped my cheek, I moved fast enough to avoid breaking skin. I got told off not the dog.
It normal goes Grampy sends the dog off and then we come and give him a hug/kiss. The dog was fine with us on the ground. I was 12

The other was a cavalier king charles, she went to bite my ankle as I walked past, I had wellies and two pairs of socks so it broke the wellie but didnt get anywere else. Owner just said sorry, she sometimes does that and walked off. This was about 15 years ago.

There is a dobie locally who is known for attacking small dogs, his owner is vile and treats him as a punching bag.

A 8 month old rottie locally was attacked by a lab and now has to be muzzled as he reacts to black dogs. The owner is working with a good trainer to be able to help them both.

All bar my grampys dog, which was my fault i did not follow the rules which knew and have been told to leave the dogs alone unless they come say hi. And at 12 I was more than capable of following them, its down to the owners who have not trained them properly or are out of their depth with the breed.

A family member got a terrier as a first dog, she bit everyone bar me and my mum, sister etc. The owner was told to "squeal" in a high pitched voice when the dog mouthed / nipped her when teething.....and then wondered why she latched on. Once I explained that she is bred to be a ratter she understood the prey drive kicked in with the noise. They rehomed her when they had thier first child as they didnt trust her not to attack the baby.


My sister was bitten by a rottie, took a chunk out of the muscle under her thumb. It was a guard dog but she was living on site and had seen her everyday for 8 months. The owner just said he has been acting werid that day and he prob should have just put him away. Our friend had the most amazing rottie who was just a big softie.

My collies have been attackes by chows, JRTs, shiz zus etc.

In my ideal world I think certain breeds need a licence, like a gun licence with a dbs check, police interview, acredited trainers who they have to log certain training hours per year, chip registerws to a certain gov register etc. And it needs to be a certain amount of money to do this so cuts out the "ard" guys who use them as a status symbol.

I would love a Mali, but I would never have one because I do not have the right set up for them or the lifestyle.

We need to sort out breeding, it all need to be registered, no matter if you are a hobby breeder or not, and each pup needs to be tracable.

But thats my ideal world.

 

[Jenko109]

It's been a big talking point on both This Morning and Loose women today. Both leaning towards compulsory muzzling, having to be on a lead etc for these dogs.

I personally, would be happy to see the entire XL Bully population destroyed.

As for BSL not working. I have never in my life seen any of the banned breeds except for one dog which was the appearance of a pitbull. So I believe I have seen a banned breed, just once. That's it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I've seen stacks of dogs that are 'of type' over the years.

 

[skinnydipper]

Newsnight. Should the XL bully be banned. Jo-Rosie Haffenden's excuse - if they can't have XL bullies they'll breed something worse . Lawrence Newport worth listening to.

BBC Two - Newsnight, NHS Whistle-Blower Persecuted

The NHS whistle-blower who says her 'life was ruined' after raising concerns.

www.bbc.co.uk

Starts at 33.00


For XL bully enthusiasts there is another going to be put to sleep on Thursday if rescue space can't be found.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't doubt for a minute that people who want a certain type of dog will breed around the legislation, that's exactly what they have done since BSL and why we are having this conversation in the first place, because such legislation isn't fit for purpose.

Jo-Rosie isn't a bad trainer or a bad spokesperson, I think she started out with a APBT and did a lot of positive advocacy work. And she is much better off on her own The dog in the studio looked a bit stressed at times, but most dogs would be in a TV studio.

 

[Jenko109]

I've seen stacks of dogs that are 'of type' over the years.

Perhaps partly down to my location then.

Also pretty rare to even see a staffy where I live.