Cortez
Tough but Fair
Whatever breeds people turn to next, as long as they try stay out of the top 10 attacking/killing charts, good luck to them.
Another fatal dog attack
- Thread starter SilverLinings
- Start date
stangs
Well-Known Member
I’ve been thinking a lot about how they’re going to define an XL bully. The way I see it, there are two options and neither of them are pretty.
Then there’s the issue of crosses, most of whom will probably escape the bounds of the DDA unharmed, for better or for worse. There’s some XL bully x Malinois puppies on preloved right now… How’s that for the “cross of the year” award or the "top 10 dogs to bite your throat out" list?
Besides, this thread has had links to several cases where the dog was not an XL bully. Some pitbull types (I suppose we can just ban them… hang on a second), and a variety of molossers. If these dogs are starting trouble now, then what’s to stop them being picked up by dodgy breeders next, and becoming the new XL bully?
I'm repeating myself but it’s almost like the real issue isn’t one breed of dog but: dog ownership issues that have resulted in more irresponsible owners across the UK; dodgy breeders rising up during the pandemic (though with the COL crisis, I suspect they’ll be hanging low for a few years longer, making it seem like the issue was resolved with the ban); and an unsurprising correlation between an increase in dog attacks, gun crime and knife crime.
But, alas, banning a dog breed is a better way short-term strategy of securing voters. And it’s a long-term strategy too: watch dog attacks increase under a Labour government so people blame them for not acting like old Sunak did.
Oh I do love BSL.
(Anyway, monologue over. I will return to bothering my poor friends and family, who could not care less, with my endless DDA-themed spiels, because I am too ‘obsessed’ with one dog breed to be on a thread primarily about that dog breed.)
- They define them partially as per the breed standard, restricting them to 23in max. This results in lots of over-height dogs ‘going free’ (the name ‘XXL bully’ exists for a reason) and plenty of opportunity for some mastiffs and mastiff crosses to take the bully’s role instead.
- They define them much more loosely, allowing bigger dogs and a bigger range of muzzles/heads. They’ve a better chance of including all XL bullies this way, especially because of the range of muzzles on them. You see some dogs with muzzles that wouldn’t look out of place on a gamebred pitbull, but many of the big lines are increasingly brachy. However, if they do this, then a lot of mastiffs get trapped as well - especially if the legislation is relaxed on height as well. I suppose they could require KC breed registration to make a mastiff exempt by proving its breed, but I wonder if that would further encourage the breeding of show line dogs over working lines that may not be registered in the first place. On the plus side, a loose upper height restriction reduces the risk of people breeding bigger dogs to do the same thing.
Then there’s the issue of crosses, most of whom will probably escape the bounds of the DDA unharmed, for better or for worse. There’s some XL bully x Malinois puppies on preloved right now… How’s that for the “cross of the year” award or the "top 10 dogs to bite your throat out" list?
Besides, this thread has had links to several cases where the dog was not an XL bully. Some pitbull types (I suppose we can just ban them… hang on a second), and a variety of molossers. If these dogs are starting trouble now, then what’s to stop them being picked up by dodgy breeders next, and becoming the new XL bully?
I'm repeating myself but it’s almost like the real issue isn’t one breed of dog but: dog ownership issues that have resulted in more irresponsible owners across the UK; dodgy breeders rising up during the pandemic (though with the COL crisis, I suspect they’ll be hanging low for a few years longer, making it seem like the issue was resolved with the ban); and an unsurprising correlation between an increase in dog attacks, gun crime and knife crime.
But, alas, banning a dog breed is a better way short-term strategy of securing voters. And it’s a long-term strategy too: watch dog attacks increase under a Labour government so people blame them for not acting like old Sunak did.
Oh I do love BSL.
(Anyway, monologue over. I will return to bothering my poor friends and family, who could not care less, with my endless DDA-themed spiels, because I am too ‘obsessed’ with one dog breed to be on a thread primarily about that dog breed.)
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
I can't know this for certain, it may be a duff theory, but pits and bullies must be amiable towards their owners at some point in their lives and tolerant of not great handling, I would guess the main reasons working GSDs and Malis haven't really caught on with a certain section of society is because they won't tolerate poor/unclear handling. They'll just bite you. Often, long before they'll go out and bite a randomer.
And interestingly (or not) someone who I used to find quite evangelical in their training style has referred to their former associates/way of thinking as a 'cult' and that they are now much less inclined to allow a dog to have no negative experiences in it's life. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but a few years ago they went and purchased a well bred working example of their breed.
And interestingly (or not) someone who I used to find quite evangelical in their training style has referred to their former associates/way of thinking as a 'cult' and that they are now much less inclined to allow a dog to have no negative experiences in it's life. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but a few years ago they went and purchased a well bred working example of their breed.
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
hmm, I can maybe raise you malx akita pups that are currently in rescue (hopefully with very stringent rehoming policies)
neddy man
Well-Known Member
Unbelievable but owners of XL bullies in Birmingham are planning a mass walk and want people to bring their children to the mass walk to show how gentle they are. www.birminghammail.co.uk
scats
Well-Known Member
He just comes for a bath and dry, nail clip (or usually just a tidy up with the grinder as his nails are nice and short) ear clean and has some balm on his pads and nose. He has a tendency to get a bit smelly so his owners bring him usually once every 12 weeks.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Definitely. It's interesting that GSD show lines (are there designated 'pet lines'?) have become one of the world's most popular breeds despite this whereas the Mali, even with all the military press, remains relatively obscure and working-line focused.
It's sad to think that pits were the American family dog during and before WW2, precisely because they were viewed as safe and friendly pets, just to end up banned in various places across the US because of aggression they should have never had. They enjoyed military fame like the Mali, film fame like the Labrador, and now look at the perception of them.
stangs
Well-Known Member
That's cheating - I don't think there's a single Akita cross that is a good idea!
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I lived in the US from 1981; the primary fame of the pitbull terrier was for organised dog fighting.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Hence why I wrote:
Dog fights became more common and more brutal from the 70s, largely thanks to the gang involvement, and the pitbull was demonised as a method to get dog-fighting banned. When dog fighting boomed again in the 80s despite criminalisation, pits were the breed of choice.
There was an increase in urban violence around the same time, which resulted in more pits being bred by dodgy breeders to fetch money as guard dogs, but which wouldn't necessarily be safe family pets. There was a shift in the ownership of the breed, from being owned by everyone to being owned more by Black and working class communities, which also affected their perception.
So, by the time you arrived in the US, you were looking at a new pitbull, so to speak, whose perception would only get more negative. First anti-pitbull BSL was in '86 iirc.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Latest FB nonsense on my feed. A dog trainer using a bully and a child to demo why you shouldn't run away from a dog. I think the point was that dogs are faster than humans and about triggering prey drive but seriously read the room!
This and the protest walk making the point to bring children is in such poor taste given the attacks on children. Although I don't think it's wise for any dog/breed to be universally marketed as family dogs, the emphasis should be on safety and teaching dogs and children how to behave around each other.
This and the protest walk making the point to bring children is in such poor taste given the attacks on children. Although I don't think it's wise for any dog/breed to be universally marketed as family dogs, the emphasis should be on safety and teaching dogs and children how to behave around each other.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Cooper & Co: Dog Law
XL BULLY BAN: WHAT WE CURRENTLY KNOW
On 10th September 2023 the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, posted on her Twitter page:-
“The American XL Bully is a clear and lethal danger to our communities, particularly children. We can’t go on like this. I have commissioned urgent advice on banning them”
This was followed on 15th September 2023 by the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, who said he would ban the breed under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 “by the end of the year”. DEFRA subsequently issued a statement that evening saying that the Environment Secretary will:-
1. Convene experts to define the American XL Bully ‘in the next week’
2. The Government will then lay a Statutory Instrument to ‘add it to the list of dogs banned under the Act. This will make it an offence to own, breed, gift or sell an XL Bully’ by the end of the year
DEFRA went on to say that there will be a transition period requiring owners to ‘come forward’ and that details of this will be provided ‘in due course’.
The UK’s Chief Veterinary Officer, Christine Middlemiss, is quoted on the BBC as saying on 16th September 2023 that the transition (which she called an “amnesty”) will require owners to register their dogs and take action including requiring the dog to be neutered, on a lead and muzzled in public, as well a requirement for the dog to be insured.
It's hard to be too precise about the next steps but the following is our ‘best guess’, pending further Government announcements:-
Q) Do owners of XL Bullies have to do anything now?
A) No, but it would be advisable to get your dog used to wearing a muzzle, as well as to get it trained, neutered, and insured.
N.B. When your dog is neutered, please ask the vet to make a record of your dog’s microchip number. For insurance it is likely to be third-party liability insurance required, not healthcare.
Q) How do I know if my dog is going to be on the banned list?
A) We shall have to wait to see the definition that is adopted.
Q) How can I get my dog exempted?
A) We’re not sure yet, but it seems as though it’ll be by an owner-led registration scheme which will probably require you to complete an application form, provide evidence of compliance with the conditions and pay for the details to be on the Index of Exempted Dogs.
Q) What if someone misses the deadline to have the dog exempted?
A) The owner (+ if different the person in charge of the dog) will be committing an offence punishable by a prison sentence of up to 6 months and/or an unlimited fine. The dog will be seized by the Police and there is likely to be a presumption that it shall be put down unless you can prove that it is not a danger to public safety. You may also be required to prove that there was good reason why you failed to comply with the amnesty.
Q) What will be the conditions.
A) If it follows the current position for an exempted dog, the requirements will be:-
• The dog is neutered
• The dog is microchipped
• Third party insurance is obtained (+ continues to be in force)
• A certificate of exemption is issued
• Keep the dog at the same address as the registered keeper except for up to 30 days in 12 months
• Notify the Agency of any change of address
• Notify the Agency of the death or export of the dog
• Keep the dog muzzled and on a lead when in a public place
• Keep the dog in sufficiently secure conditions to prevent its escape
Breach of any of these conditions will mean that the dog is no longer exempted.
Q) What are the offences likely to be?
A)
• Having possession or custody of the dog if it has not been exempted within the amnesty period
• To breed (or breed from) the dog
• To sell or exchange the dog
• To make or offer to make a gift of the dog
• Allow the dog to be in a public place without being muzzled and kept on a lead
• Abandon the dog or allow it to stray
Q) Will a rescue be able to rehome an XL Bully?
A) When the ban comes into force, unless the existing rules are changed, a rescue won’t be able to rehome an XL Bully unless it is going to someone who already has or has had responsibility for the dog, and in any event this would have to be approved by a Court.
This summary was produced on 16th September 2023 but this is a fast changing situation so you must not rely on it as legal advice.
XL BULLY BAN: WHAT WE CURRENTLY KNOW
On 10th September 2023 the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, posted on her Twitter page:-
“The American XL Bully is a clear and lethal danger to our communities, particularly children. We can’t go on like this. I have commissioned urgent advice on banning them”
This was followed on 15th September 2023 by the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, who said he would ban the breed under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 “by the end of the year”. DEFRA subsequently issued a statement that evening saying that the Environment Secretary will:-
1. Convene experts to define the American XL Bully ‘in the next week’
2. The Government will then lay a Statutory Instrument to ‘add it to the list of dogs banned under the Act. This will make it an offence to own, breed, gift or sell an XL Bully’ by the end of the year
DEFRA went on to say that there will be a transition period requiring owners to ‘come forward’ and that details of this will be provided ‘in due course’.
The UK’s Chief Veterinary Officer, Christine Middlemiss, is quoted on the BBC as saying on 16th September 2023 that the transition (which she called an “amnesty”) will require owners to register their dogs and take action including requiring the dog to be neutered, on a lead and muzzled in public, as well a requirement for the dog to be insured.
It's hard to be too precise about the next steps but the following is our ‘best guess’, pending further Government announcements:-
Q) Do owners of XL Bullies have to do anything now?
A) No, but it would be advisable to get your dog used to wearing a muzzle, as well as to get it trained, neutered, and insured.
N.B. When your dog is neutered, please ask the vet to make a record of your dog’s microchip number. For insurance it is likely to be third-party liability insurance required, not healthcare.
Q) How do I know if my dog is going to be on the banned list?
A) We shall have to wait to see the definition that is adopted.
Q) How can I get my dog exempted?
A) We’re not sure yet, but it seems as though it’ll be by an owner-led registration scheme which will probably require you to complete an application form, provide evidence of compliance with the conditions and pay for the details to be on the Index of Exempted Dogs.
Q) What if someone misses the deadline to have the dog exempted?
A) The owner (+ if different the person in charge of the dog) will be committing an offence punishable by a prison sentence of up to 6 months and/or an unlimited fine. The dog will be seized by the Police and there is likely to be a presumption that it shall be put down unless you can prove that it is not a danger to public safety. You may also be required to prove that there was good reason why you failed to comply with the amnesty.
Q) What will be the conditions.
A) If it follows the current position for an exempted dog, the requirements will be:-
• The dog is neutered
• The dog is microchipped
• Third party insurance is obtained (+ continues to be in force)
• A certificate of exemption is issued
• Keep the dog at the same address as the registered keeper except for up to 30 days in 12 months
• Notify the Agency of any change of address
• Notify the Agency of the death or export of the dog
• Keep the dog muzzled and on a lead when in a public place
• Keep the dog in sufficiently secure conditions to prevent its escape
Breach of any of these conditions will mean that the dog is no longer exempted.
Q) What are the offences likely to be?
A)
• Having possession or custody of the dog if it has not been exempted within the amnesty period
• To breed (or breed from) the dog
• To sell or exchange the dog
• To make or offer to make a gift of the dog
• Allow the dog to be in a public place without being muzzled and kept on a lead
• Abandon the dog or allow it to stray
Q) Will a rescue be able to rehome an XL Bully?
A) When the ban comes into force, unless the existing rules are changed, a rescue won’t be able to rehome an XL Bully unless it is going to someone who already has or has had responsibility for the dog, and in any event this would have to be approved by a Court.
This summary was produced on 16th September 2023 but this is a fast changing situation so you must not rely on it as legal advice.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I don't understand this. I thought "bull terrier" referred to dogs with sufficient aggression to be used to fight bulls and "pit" to the pit they put the dogs in to fight each other.
Genetically these dogs were created to fight.
.
stangs
Well-Known Member
We've been over this. They were safe and friendly pets because dogfighting dogs were never bred to show human aggression. It makes them too much of a liability in their work.
Standoffishness to strangers is expected in bull breeds that have been used as guard dogs, but otherwise aggression is a disqualifying fault in all bull breeds.
(And one man's "aggression" is another man's "drive", "fearlessness" "boldness". The Tosa, for example, has traditionally only ever been bred to fight, but a good Tosa should 'finish fights but never start them.')
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I'm sorry that just makes me laugh out loud. I don't believe you can genetically channel aggression to that specific level.
Sheepdogs have been bred for centuries to work sheep, yet they are often trained on ducks and I've met plenty who try to herd humans and cars.
.
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I suppose I’m being unreasonable to not want my dog attacked by a dog bred to fight to the death.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I was out for a walk last yesterday and a guy with a border collie on a lead was walking towards me. I've trained myself now not to look at bigger (or any loose) dogs, but this one was a bit odd looking for a border so, stupidly, I was looking at it with curiosity and too late I realised it was probably a bull type crossbreed in border collie colours . The dog locked on me, and was still locked on me until its owner dragged it out of sight of me. I would have felt a lot more comfortable if that dog had been muzzled.
.
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Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
Several of our collies used to instinctively herd our young children out on family walks. All were from working dogs but never worked herding sheep with us from about 7 weeks old.
I am sorry Stangs but I don't believe any breed genetically bred for bull or pit fighting or even guarding can be taught to reliably concentrate its aggression on just bulls or other dogs.
That latent genetic propensity will always be there IMHO.
I am sorry Stangs but I don't believe any breed genetically bred for bull or pit fighting or even guarding can be taught to reliably concentrate its aggression on just bulls or other dogs.
That latent genetic propensity will always be there IMHO.
ArklePig
Well-Known Member
Jeexz, bring kids as what? A sacrifice?
Sorry if this has been discussed but I don't come on this thread very often. I've read the posts on how to act if you are attacked by a dog. Does anyone have any ideas on what to do if my dog is attacked by a dog that I couldn't fight off? She is about 20kg and knee high so wouldn't stand a chance. I also wouldn't stand a chance. The thought crossed my mind as I arrived at the normally quiet park the other day, saw an xl bully in there and noped right out of there immediately.
bonny
Well-Known Member
Just what you did, stay away from them if at all possible.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I really don't want any children to get hurt but if some of these dogs fought either each other or their handlers it may not be such good publicity for the breed.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I'm equally unreasonable as I don't want myself to be attacked by a dog bred to fight. (or anyone else)
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Despite the fact that I personally don't care for pitbull type dogs, I have no doubt that the majority of them get along well enough in their family situations and are living with children with no issues. The march will hopefully pass off with no problems and the owners will use this as evidence that their dogs are all just big loveable softies. If something were to happen, can you imagine the furore..........
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
Due to public outrage/concern about the proposed mass XL Bully walk planned in Birmingham the organisers have now asked people NOT to bring their dogs:
www.birminghammail.co.uk
I wouldn't be surprised if some people still turn up with dogs though, as of course their dog is a completely harmless furbaby and exempt from any rules or concerns that other people may have for their safety
Mass XL Bully walk in city 'not allowing dogs' after online backlash
People had branded the XL Bully walk with dogs 'dangerous and extremely irresponsible'
I wouldn't be surprised if some people still turn up with dogs though, as of course their dog is a completely harmless furbaby and exempt from any rules or concerns that other people may have for their safety
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Kinda both defeats and proves the point all in the one goDue to public outrage/concern about the proposed mass XL Bully walk planned in Birmingham the organisers have now asked people NOT to bring their dogs:
Mass XL Bully walk in city 'not allowing dogs' after online backlash
People had branded the XL Bully walk with dogs 'dangerous and extremely irresponsible'
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
That could be part of the problem right there, furbaby. There are people bleating all over social media that they are frightened they are going to lose their baby girl. Nope, it's a dog, never forget that.
Also the ban is not the fault of the people who don't have them, it's the fault of the people who do, and the breeders.
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
Yes, some owners seem to be completely missing this point and claiming the ban is due to all the non-XL bully owners 'demonising' their precious baby, rather than being due to the extremely aggressive behaviour of some XL Bullys. It is disappointing how many grown adult owners seem incapable of acknowledging that some XL Bullys have committed horrific acts of aggression, and whether it's due to the breed/genetics or the owners (or both) something needs to be done to protect members of the public from being killed by them.
It is quite a childish reaction really, like sticking your fingers in your ears because you don't want to hear the facts even if they are true. We seem to have a lot of adults in the UK now who are not good at taking responsibility for themselves, their children and their pets, and who have very little empathy for other members of society.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
There seems to be a bit of panic now with free training being offered because unbelievably people have a 65 kg dog who has had NO training, NONE.
Dogs don't magically know how you want them to behave, you have to teach them.
Dogs don't magically know how you want them to behave, you have to teach them.
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
The problem is that these are the same people who think that their children don't need training (discipline, guidance, rules) either, and that if their child/dog is naughty then it's nothing to do with them.
I had a man with an out of control spaniel ask me at a dog show (I'd just competed an obedience test with my well trained spaniel) how I had managed to 'pick a good one'. When I eventually got to the bottom of what he meant it turned out that he thought I had been luckier than him, and had bought a puppy that could automatically understand voice, hand and whistle commands and compete successfully in obedience and agility. He seemed completely incapable of understanding when I tried to explain how many hours of training we'd put in to get to that point...
Mind you, I suppose there's no need to feel guilt or shame if your naughty dog/child is just down to bad luck and not your laziness and useless training/parenting skills.