Another fatal dog attack

SadKen

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I dont like ball throwing for the reasons Clodagh outlined. Its a rare thing we do occasionally.

The love flirt poliing, but again its not great for them so its an occasional treat.

We do scent work, walks through cities, visits to shops, occasional visits to the park, trips on public transport etc, etc. But the main thing is walking exploring footpaths and bridleways.

I'm glad your set up works for you. Not only do I not have a paddock, but I also wouldnt consider that acceptable for me or my dogs.

I'm lucky, if it was implemented I have no ties, I'd just up sticks and move to a country that didnt have such rules.
It’s all a bit ‘let them eat cake’ for me. ‘Have you tried not being poor?’.

Flippant of course, and I’m not trying to upset people, but the fact is the vast majority of dog owners don’t have these things and that doesn’t make them bad owners. Trying to deliver a fulfilling life for a sentient creature doesn’t deserve to be criminalised; we have legislation for off lead dogs causing problems, it’s just not enforced.
 

CorvusCorax

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I literally use a field with a fence, a couple of pockets of food and a flirt pole at the minute. Most of the training I do, I do on my own. Good helpers are like hens teeth.

If the dog requires more exercise/occupation than I can give, then I decide am I the right kind of home for it. If God spares me, I don't intend to have this type of dog into old age as it wouldn't be fair.
People spend money on daycare and walkers, which I wouldn't consider, and baulk at the idea of spending the same or less on an hour's training at the weekend.
 

CrunchieBoi

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The nearest secure field to us is 35 miles away, is mown short with nothing in it aside from a couple of old tractor tyres. The one time we used it was during the winter and it was muddy as hell and covered in dog crap.

I think it was £13 for the privilege.
 

skinnydipper

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I agree they are a good thing if your dog has no recall or can’t be trusted off lead. I think for dogs that are impeccably behaved it’s very harsh.

It's a choice.

Of course I could still take her to the park where she used to enjoy off lead play with her friends but rude/pushy/aggressive dogs, mainly labradors, spoilt that.
 
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tristar

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Everything you write here is true .
I meet people quite often with large badly leader trained Labradors they are being dragged around by a lovely enthusiastic untrained young dog , how lucky you are to have got calm dogs mine is mad they say .
What do you say to them ,Your dogs not mad it’s not trained it’s exercised enough in its body or it’s head to be calm .
I am not saying all dogs have the same energy levels within Labradors energy levels between individuals vary hugely and some are easier to train than others .
I suspect most breeds are like that and of course when they are older puppies young adults that’s when you have to put the effort in .
There people who really don’t understand that you train dogs and there people who need to realise exactly how much of a lifestyle change becoming a dog owner is .

Amongst all this angst it is important to remember that most dog owners get enormous health benefits fun and pleasure from owning a dog and the dogs have a good home the good of dog ownership must not be lost in the focus on the bad .


i agree its easy to overlook the benefits and companionship that dogs bring in all of this


i have a 6 inch JRT he lives in 40 acres, encircled by drainage system dykes, no way out, yet even he at around 10 years old is very active, he is by nature placid and very well behaved, but my god he has energy, can gallop like a good un at full speed, spends most of his day supervising naughty ponies, `lord spot of blackwood` will tell it is time to feed, time to ride, etc and herds you up in the right direction.

so even a small dog can need or be capable of lots of movement, even in middle age, or can take a lot of movement, but there the individual need as you say, perhaps it can vary enormously within breeds.

now i am not a doggy person, but have seen the difference attending dog training classes can make, an alsatian i once gave a wide berth to was a completely different creature after socializing at training classes

it is indeed a huge adjustment, to have to say, walk a dog x2 a day before and after work, entertain it, provide care when going on holiday, then vets fees, suitable fencing etc
 

skinnydipper

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if people had dogs suitable to their needs, not working dogs in a flat, or big dogs that need to have controlled exercise. or to do things that occupy the brain, at lot would be solved

I feel sorry for any dog deemed suitable for a life with no mental stimulation or exercise.

It's no wonder there are so many dogs with undesirable behaviour, destructive chewing, excessively licking themselves, hyper.
 

tristar

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Having observed and been involved with hundreds of dogs, I can tell you for free that asking most dogs to concentrate for ten minutes will do the same as 30 minutes of aimless running around.


could that be because the ten minutes or say an hour ridden is more than that i think animals mull over what they do?

some horses are by the gate waiting at the appointed hour to come in and be worked, the anticipation of having a job, doing it , and thinking about it after, they are not that much different to us i think in that respect,

and this is animals that could be grazing idly, or lounging on the sofa snoozing
 

tristar

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I feel sorry for any dog deemed suitable for a life with no mental stimulation or exercise.

It's no wonder there are so many dogs with undesirable behaviour, destructive chewing, excessively licking themselves, hyper.


the eternal thing, lack of understanding animals intelligence, abilities, needs, natural inclinations

how they love meaningful interaction with humans
 

Clodagh

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Having observed and been involved with hundreds of dogs, I can tell you for free that asking most dogs to concentrate for ten minutes will do the same as 30 minutes of aimless running around.
I agree that the dogs usually get 10 minutes training instead of one of their daily walks but I enjoy just walking them, I don’t want to be training all the time either.
 

Moobli

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My lot definitely enjoy a training session and working the sheep and are tired afterwards but one of MY greatest pleasures in life is walking my dogs and I’m sure the dogs get as much out of it as I do. It’s time for them to relax, sniff, mooch and just be a dog. I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with on lead/muzzle rules in more urban environments if it’s deemed absolutely necessary but think it’s a step too far out on the sticks.

Presumably under these draconian laws working dogs (actually out doing a job) would be exempt? Can’t really work sheep, apprehend criminals, pick up dead birds if muzzled and on the lead 😂.
 

TheresaW

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I have 3 dogs that can’t be off lead. We have walks where they sniff mooch etc. We are lucky enough that we have a big garden that they can properly run in. We do hire off lead areas occasionally where they can generally have a mad 5 mins running like the clappers, but can then settle and just move about freely with their noses to the ground. The collie is off lead most of the time and has spot on recall. Obviously I put him lead if near livestock, or we see horses out and about.

The collie can be funny with some people, the malamute is other dog aggressive. I would muzzle both, but I choose to walk very early in the mornings with them, and think I’ve seen one other person this year. This was at just after 4.30am, and he told me he was late walking that morning 😱

ETA. I’m sure I read somewhere, that you can do the same walk daily with a dog, but to the dog, everyday is a brand new walk with different smells etc?
 

I'm Dun

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I wouldn't call between 3 and 7.5 acres small, but what do I know.

Good luck finding a 7.5 acre field to rent. In most areas they are an acre tops, a lot significantly smaller.

On top of the £13 a day charge to hire them, none that I can think of are accessible by public transport. How are people supposed to get to these places? Taxis wont take dogs, public transport is very hit and miss in rural areas. Theres no foot paths for anyone who wants to walk the 4 miles there and 4 miles back along 60mph country roads.

I've just got back from 90mins walking with my 2. The sun is shining but not too hot. Perfect dog walking weather. They were off lead for 70 mins of the walk and we all had a glorious time. They are asleep now, and will get up later to licky mats and probably the treat hiding game. They get lots of stimulation. I dont use off lead walks as an excuse to do nothing else. But I have sight hounds, bred to run and one of the best things in my life is seeing them running free.
 

skinnydipper

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Good luck finding a 7.5 acre field to rent. In most areas they are an acre tops, a lot significantly smaller.

I'm lucky then because I hire a 7.5 acre field once a week and it doesn't cost me £13.

We go to fields with obstacles, sandpits, parkour and agility equipment, a sensory garden and a scent wall. Not all in the the same field and not all the equipment is suitable for the big girl, but we cope :)

I have some experience of sighthounds, I have had 3. They loved nothing better than springing through the long grass and racing up and down sand dunes. But I don't have one now and I am doing the best I can for the dog I do have.
 

Goldenstar

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Pearl starts most days four or five days a week with finding her dummy by scent with Mr Gs he puts her in sit and stay hides the dummy and then sends her to find it. She loves it and it’s something they do together. At this time Dram and I hang out together and empty the dish washer etc.
This really sets her up for a calm day .
She is three in November and coming to stage where you get the adult article and pay back for your work in training them .
She was a bit dog reactive I got a bit of help and we are through that now she is not however a dog who wants to play with other strange dogs .
I dont mind that because I don’t want dogs who think that other dogs mean play but you do meet more people who think it’s a free for all than you used to too .
 

YorksG

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It costs a fair bit to hire a field that’s secure specifically for dog walking. At our local one, if you hired it every day, it’s £80 a week. Most don’t have that kind of money. Many don’t have that money spare for once a week, or the means to get there as they are usually out of town.

You can’t expect people who struggle to feed and vet care for their dogs to do this. Is the solution that their dogs spend their lives on a lead? Because many owners won’t subject their dog to that, and in many cases, this would never cause any kind of problem.

It’s also the case that many people don’t have the time, safe places or the health required to do the intense training CC referenced. You can say ‘they shouldn’t get a dog’, but people who aren’t equipped to look after children properly either from a health, time or money perspective yet have them all the time. So this is not really different.

Again before I am told I’m downbeat I think current legislation should be enforced properly and the penalties *when the law is broken* should be far more significant especially for large dogs.
I agree with all but the last part, about the size of the dog. A dog running loose in stock causes problems, regardless of the size of the dog.
 

Cortez

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Erm, where has it been suggested that there is a "muzzle all dogs" rule coming in? I can't see that as being either necessary or practicable. I do think dogs should be on lead in public spaces, or anywhere where they would cause a nuisance to other people or animals. If people really want to see the wind in their dogs hair then go to a designated free-running place. I'm lucky in that I have my own fields, but even then they are usually supervised/kept an eye on.
 

paddy555

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all of the objections are by dog owners about restricting their pets. What about the general public who are at the receiving end of bad behaviour? Even if you have your own dog you may not like other dogs running up to you or your dog. It may frighten you if it is a small nippy dog or a larger aggressive one.

this thread is called "fatal" dog attack. That is happening for real. The number killed by dogs may be low compared to other means of dying although personally I would prefer a different death if possible.
What about those who are not killed but end up with injuries and hospital.
There is a far bigger picture than "I would find it boring going to a dog walking field."

If this dog had been leaded this wouldn't have happened.

many of us who ride have experienced similar.

For anyone who doesn't want to lead on the beach or in rural areas why is this acceptable?
 

blackcob

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I have a dog now with excellent recall, low prey drive and zero interest in people or dogs; while it would be a shame to apply an on-leash law to him, I'd take it in a heartbeat if it kept the irresponsible hordes away from us. I've said it before but I got dogs fit for sled dog racing at national and European level without ever letting them off the lead. Fair enough we were never terribly good at it 😉 but for a bit of effort and creativity they had more fulfilment and stimulation in an average week than many pet dogs would get in a year, and no people, dogs or sheep were threatened in the process.
 

palo1

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why would you need to recognise a dangerous breed if all were leaded and muzzled.

Complete aside but I am slightly boggled by the idea that a breed as rare as the Welsh terrier and the size of a (square) cocker spaniel or smaller could have caused enough trouble in a country as big as Ukraine to be required to be muzzled. Terriers eh?!
 

Clodagh

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For anyone who doesn't want to lead on the beach or in rural areas why is this acceptable?
well obviously it isn’t. But me muzzling or leashing or both my dogs while I walk around fields out here in ‘cowboy country’ is not going to make anyone’s day out safer. Except the mice. They do hunt mice.
I have said I would put them on the lead in public areas, but I actively avoid these areas anyway.
 

I'm Dun

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all of the objections are by dog owners about restricting their pets. What about the general public who are at the receiving end of bad behaviour? Even if you have your own dog you may not like other dogs running up to you or your dog. It may frighten you if it is a small nippy dog or a larger aggressive one.


For anyone who doesn't want to lead on the beach or in rural areas why is this acceptable?

Because my dogs dont do that. They dont chase horses or sheep, they dont go up to people, they dont react when other peoples dogs come lumbering over. They go on leads when needed. We've just been out for a 10mins leg stretch on leads.

I dont really see a lot of this behaviour from others either. But that is probably because on the whole I'm walking places where there aren't many other people. I tend to find once I'm a mile down any track that its rare for me to see other dogs, because people just dont seem to walk them that far.
 

paddy555

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well obviously it isn’t. But me muzzling or leashing or both my dogs while I walk around fields out here in ‘cowboy country’ is not going to make anyone’s day out safer. Except the mice. They do hunt mice.
I have said I would put them on the lead in public areas, but I actively avoid these areas anyway.
but we are back to the situation that you are not the problem. You never were but how do we separate you from the person who walks their dog (anywhere) that is unleaded, unmuzzled and attacks either another dog, horse or worse still a child.

we can't have no rules at all as people and animals are getting seriously hurt. So how do we select who we apply them to.

it would be great for all dogs to go off lead and not be muzzled. Then we get back to reality.
I don't know the answer but it cannot be right that dogs should attack other dogs, horses and people can it????

we can't work on breed as the problem dogs are not really a breed and there are too many get outs. Should we have all dogs over a certain weight are muzzled?

the only answer I can think of is to control their teeth. Leaded in public places as a matter of course.

No leading your dog won't make anyone safer. What if someone else decides to walk their dog in cowboy country and that dog is say a bull breed, gsd, doberman etc etc unleashed and untrained. Someone else decides to walk their small kids in the hope of enjoying their walk. The onus is on that dog walker to control their dogs for the safety of the kids. The dogs are unleashed and untrained. What could possible go wrong?
Because my dogs dont do that. They dont chase horses or sheep, they dont go up to people, they dont react when other peoples dogs come lumbering over. They go on leads when needed. We've just been out for a 10mins leg stretch on leads.

I dont really see a lot of this behaviour from others either. But that is probably because on the whole I'm walking places where there aren't many other people. I tend to find once I'm a mile down any track that its rare for me to see other dogs, because people just dont seem to walk them that far.
but that is back to "your dogs'

I'm sure owners of dogs who have attacked (not just bullys) thought their dogs would never do anything and are perfect.

people knock back every suggestion but don't come up with answers to stop these attacks. Sunak has yet it most likely won't work because of IDing them. So what is the answer? or do we just accept dog causing injuries.
 

Clodagh

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I have suggested a dog licence to fund dog wardens who are effective, well funded, well trained and empowered. But that was shot down as well.
No one wants to see anyone else’s POV and as we are presumably a section of this forum who on the whole own dogs there’s not much hope for the larger populace to agree on anything.
 

I'm Dun

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Putting a lead on an XL bully isnt going to stop it attacking anyone. Theres no one alive who could hold one of those dogs if it wanted to go.

Id have every single one PTS. They are a genetic ticking time bomb. They can be IDed with DNA tests. Technology has moved on enough that this can now be done.

And I'd make it much, much harder for anyone to own a large dog with the capability or propensity to attack people. But that would need policing and is very unlikely to happen.

Either way, I cant ever see a situation where requiring every dog in the UK to be muzzled and on a lead is a thing. Given the large number of voters who have dogs, no government is going to go down that road. Look at the backlash over XL bullies, and thats just one breed that appears in relatively tiny amounts.
 

skinnydipper

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I am just reading a discussion from an experienced person offering reduced cost muzzle training about the difficulty in getting muzzles to fit and stay on this type of dog - their heads and necks are often a similar size and apparently if ear cropped it's even easier for them to shake them off.

I wonder when the muzzle is fitted if there is a way to attach the neck strap of the muzzle to a harness.
 

Tiddlypom

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Just another reminder about what off lead dogs both can do, and do do far too often. Posted yesterday by the local Police Rural Crime Team.

*graphic photos*

No dog should be off lead if there is livestock about, and quite often when walking in the countryside you can't be sure whether there might be farm animals around or not.


I'm really not sure how those who thinking keeping a dog on a lead is an onerous misery for both owner and dog go about walking their dogs on leads. Our JRT is always on lead due to suspect recall around small furries, and she has a grand time with plenty of stops and sniffs. It's not an at heel route march 🙂.
 
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