Another fatal dog attack

[Clodagh]

Just another reminder about what off lead dogs both can do, and do do far too often. Posted yesterday by the local Police Rural Crime Team.

*graphic photos*

No dog should be off lead if there is livestock about, and quite often when walking in the countryside you can't be sure whether there might be farm animals around or not.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02pL14yy3mJiTA36gRVjVbwYurha5oq26YTo2MVgqMCot1D9ErkMMejamzM2RSnpsLl&id=100064929210943

I'm really not sure how those who thinking keeping a dog on a lead is an onerous misery for both owner and dog go about walking their dogs on leads. Our JRT is always on lead due to suspect recall around small furries, and she has a grand time with plenty of stops and sniffs. It's not an at heel route march .

That is so sad, poor sheep and their owners.
I was working with a shepherd’s wife on Thursday, he’s just shot a dog chasing his sheep. He’s a dog lover and he hates it but it’s so frequent now he has gone zero tolerance.

 

[Goldenstar]

but we are back to the situation that you are not the problem. You never were but how do we separate you from the person who walks their dog (anywhere) that is unleaded, unmuzzled and attacks either another dog, horse or worse still a child.

we can't have no rules at all as people and animals are getting seriously hurt. So how do we select who we apply them to.

it would be great for all dogs to go off lead and not be muzzled. Then we get back to reality.
I don't know the answer but it cannot be right that dogs should attack other dogs, horses and people can it????

we can't work on breed as the problem dogs are not really a breed and there are too many get outs. Should we have all dogs over a certain weight are muzzled?

the only answer I can think of is to control their teeth. Leaded in public places as a matter of course.

No leading your dog won't make anyone safer. What if someone else decides to walk their dog in cowboy country and that dog is say a bull breed, gsd, doberman etc etc unleashed and untrained. Someone else decides to walk their small kids in the hope of enjoying their walk. The onus is on that dog walker to control their dogs for the safety of the kids. The dogs are unleashed and untrained. What could possible go wrong?

but that is back to "your dogs'

I'm sure owners of dogs who have attacked (not just bullys) thought their dogs would never do anything and are perfect.

people knock back every suggestion but don't come up with answers to stop these attacks. Sunak has yet it most likely won't work because of IDing them. So what is the answer? or do we just accept dog causing injuries.

We could start by recording out of control incidents where horses get chased by dogs .
recording Dog on dog attacks which are not recorded atm .

We could easily stop all problems with dogs and horses by banning horses from beaches .
Horses are large and very threatening to some people and lots of people who have horses struggle to control them at the same time we will ban them from the roads as they are easily startled by cars and it’s not the driver fault that people have not got them used to traffic .
We could stop people walking in forests being endangered by mountain bikers by stopping them cycling in the forests .
Theres loads we could do the question is it fair to the vast majority of people whose dogs cause no issues .

 

[Parrotperson]

Of course there’ll never be complete agreement. It’s not one size fits all sadly

My jrt.l needs an off lead run twice a week to let off steam. He can be worn out with training but because he finds it quite hard he needs to run around rather than train. I can get to two dog fields although they’re both 20+ miles away.

So if it comes to it and dogs have to be leashed all the time then so be it. But I would be quite sad.

 

[bonny]

Of course there’ll never be complete agreement. It’s not one size fits all sadly

My jrt.l needs an off lead run twice a week to let off steam. He can be worn out with training but because he finds it quite hard he needs to run around rather than train. I can get to two dog fields although they’re both 20+ miles away.

So if it comes to it and dogs have to be leashed all the time then so be it. But I would be quite sad.

I don’t think it’s ever been suggested that all dogs have to be on a lead so I wouldn’t worry about it.

 

[Smitty]

American bully XL: Owner sought after man attacked in south London park

Police said the victim, in his 40s, was rushed to hospital after being bitten in Pasley Park.

www.bbc.co.uk

At least the police turned up!! Bitten in the abdomen, ouch, poor man.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Our lab that is the dedicated runner is never, ever allowed off lead even on our own land. We are surrounded by cattle and sheep for most of the year. We do let her have a very long line though, enough that she can still have a run around and get silly with my other lab. We know she will chase anything that moves, and she is very fast and off lead immediately goes into the red zone with a very ingrained kill instinct with other animals, although not dogs thankfully. Recall becomes non existent, though strangely it is now excellent when she is on the long line, as though she knows!

She does get a good chance to run free and be silly in a one acre paddock we have enclosed safely beside the house. The other one we have that is very stranger aggressive is allowed off lead on our own land, but we are very remote and her recall from attack mode is now excellent, we can stop her in her tracks immediately, and she will never go beyond the field perimeter anyway. Around the house she is also safely contained in the well fenced dog paddock in case anyone comes through our main gateway, if we were not around she would definitely attack and bite unfortunately.

As I said earlier in this thread, if we lived in an urban setting I probably would not have either of these dogs, they simply would be too dangerous and would need to be muzzled and on a lead all times out walking. Obviously in suburbia we would be unlikely to have a spare acre of land for them to safely let of steam. No life for a happy and healthy dog It isn't always the expected breeds IMO. My point and example is legislation for muzzling and no off lead walking anywhere would surely have to apply to all dogs, no matter what breed? And why would I or any other country dwellers accept that rule on our own rural land where they also might have gone to great expense and trouble to make sure their dogs can't harm anyone or anything?

 

[ecb89]

Just seen on a local Facebook page. Rider and horse attacked by a Doberman off the lead.

 

[Micky]

You’re all gonna hate me but....compulsory licensing, properly organised by knowledgable people, compulsory training after license granted, compulsory neutering/spaying, home spot checks, animals in rescue homes have limited time to be rehomed before being pts, it’s mentally poor for animals being in rescue centres even with stimulation walks etc, months/years is no life for them, previous unwanted behaviour pts. There are too many stray,unwanted, screwed up, badly cared for animals out there, kept by uneducated and unwilling to be educated people.

 

[skinnydipper]

You’re all gonna hate me but....compulsory licensing, properly organised by knowledgable people, compulsory training after license granted, compulsory neutering/spaying, home spot checks, animals in rescue homes have limited time to be rehomed before being pts, it’s mentally poor for animals being in rescue centres even with stimulation walks etc, months/years is no life for them, previous unwanted behaviour pts. There are too many stray,unwanted, screwed up, badly cared for animals out there, kept by uneducated and unwilling to be educated people.

Well, I don't hate you but if there was a time limit for an animal in rescue then my lovely little deaf dog would have been pts, she was in a rescue for a year before I adopted her. She was an absolute star, very sweet natured and seemed unaffected by her time in rescue. However, for another of my dogs this was her fifth home, she suffered from kennel stress at the time of adoption.

Dogs are failed by people and I think that needs to be addressed. My vote would be to put them to sleep

 

[paddy555]

We could easily stop all problems with dogs and horses by banning horses from beaches .
Horses are large and very threatening to some people and lots of people who have horses struggle to control them

alternatively we could easily stop all problems with dogs and horses by banning dogs from beaches. Or we could take a more moderate approach and make sure the dogs on the beach are leaded to prevent them going near the horses. Equally I would expect riders in return to keep their horse under control. ie don't turn it loose and then be surprised when it goes galloping off up the beach and biting a dog.
I have seen lots of dogs out of control,
I have seen very few horses. Do we really have so many people who struggle to control their horses when they are out and they run off and attack people?
Clearly my life has been extremely sheltered.

We could start by recording out of control incidents where horses get chased by dogs .
r

ecb 89 has made a start for your records

Just seen on a local Facebook page. Rider and horse attacked by a Doberman off the lead.

personally I have had too many incidents over the years of dog chasing, attacking and biting, going underneath or round and round my horses. For me it is time for action not records.

 

[paddy555]

And why would I or any other country dwellers accept that rule on our own rural land where they also might have gone to great expense and trouble to make sure their dogs can't harm anyone or anything?

i do remember the efforts you went to to create a fenced dog area. Legislation would have to apply to all dogs to be fair to everyone however I don't see it could apply to private land.

 

[paddy555]

so on one single page of this thread we have a man in London attacked and a horse and rider. Both dogs off the lead.. Clearly there is no problem at all. I hope they are all OK.

 

[SilverLinings]

It would be interesting to know whether attacks on humans would significantly reduce if attacks on other dogs and other species were taken more seriously in the eyes of the law, and punished more heavily. As dog-on-dog and dog-on-horse etc attacks aren't officially recorded anywhere it is currently very difficult to be certain that the dogs who attack humans are likely to have a prior history of attacking other animals, but it seems very likely to me.

If an attack on another animal meant a decent fine for the owner and a requirement to subsequently keep the dog on a lead and muzzled in public, then surely the number of attacks on humans would decrease, as there will have been an intervention before the dog's behaviour escalates.

I accept that there are probably dogs who seriously/fatally attack a human as their first act of overt aggression (although other behavioural signs may have been there if the owner was more observant), but a lot of the stories that have been reported in the news recently talk of prior aggressive behaviour towards other animals, particularly other dogs.

Ignoring (officially/legislatively) dog-on-dog and dog-on-animal attacks seems to be missing a massive red flag in terms of the possibility of future aggression towards humans.

 

[skinnydipper]

Nobody has got back to me about dog bite statistics in the UK so I had a quick look. It seems that Labradors are responsible for more personal injury claims than any other breed.

Dog spared destruction after biting woman in Powys beer garden

A dog that bit a woman in a pub beer garden has been spared destruction – but as long as it is muzzled and kept on a lead in public.

www.countytimes.co.uk

 

[Gloi]

Nobody has got back to me about dog bite statistics in the UK so I had a quick look. It seems that Labradors are responsible for more personal injury claims than any other breed.

Dog spared destruction after biting woman in Powys beer garden

A dog that bit a woman in a pub beer garden has been spared destruction – but as long as it is muzzled and kept on a lead in public.

www.countytimes.co.uk

How does that work out per the number of dogs there are of that breed against other breeds?

 

[I'm Dun]

Do you have the dog bite statistics by breed for the UK?

Theres various sources, this appears to be pulled from the ONS. I'm far too lazy to go and look it up on there.

fatal attacks

I have seen very few horses. Do we really have so many people who struggle to control their horses when they are out and they run off and attack people?

The horses are an issue on the roads. You only have to look at some of the facebook groups to realise how entitled some riders are an how dangerous their behaviour is. I imagine most people with no horsey connection would be delighted if they were banned from public highways. I'm not sure that it would be wrong either.

 

[AmyMay]

.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Nobody has got back to me about dog bite statistics in the UK so I had a quick look. It seems that Labradors are responsible for more personal injury claims than any other breed.

Dog spared destruction after biting woman in Powys beer garden

A dog that bit a woman in a pub beer garden has been spared destruction – but as long as it is muzzled and kept on a lead in public.

www.countytimes.co.uk

I can't say I am that surprised but where did you see those statistics please skinnydipper?

And that article refers to a 'labrador type' - well every plain black or yellow dog in rescues here are referred to as labradors if they are roughly the same size! It also states it is a Romanian rescue. Apart from the moral standpoint of all those dogs languishing in our own rescue centres in this part of the world, with all due respect to people who have imported many of these street dogs from various countries around the globe I am guessing from articles I have read over recent years, quite a high proportion of those imported do not make successful or happy transitions to pet dogs for owners here in Ireland or the UK.

 

[skinnydipper]

How does that work out per the number of dogs there are of that breed against other breeds?

I don't know. It could be that Labs are responsible for the most bites because they are a popular breed and there's more of them.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I don't know. It could be that Labs are responsible for the most bites because they are a popular breed and there's more of the

But where did you find the information (statistical information) that states labradors are recorded as having the highest number of bite attacks? You can't just say "oh well they are the most popular breed so therefore they must be the ones that bite the most?" That just isn't in anyway a fair or legitimate way of stating that statistic as a fact. I am not arguing that it could well be right, especially owning a particularly aggressive one myself but lets not go clutching figures out of mid air to try and manipulate facts and demonize one particular breed unfairly.

 

[skinnydipper]

But where did you find the information (statistical information) that states labradors are recorded as having the highest number of bite attacks? You can't just say "oh well they are the most popular breed so therefore they must be the ones that bite the most?" That just isn't in anyway a fair or legitimate way of stating that statistic as a fact. I am not arguing that it could well be right, especially owning a particularly aggressive one myself but lets not go clutching figures out of mid air to try and manipulate facts and demonize one particular breed unfairly.

"The family favourite labrador is responsible for the highest number of canine attack personal injury claims, according to research by pet insurers Animal Friends."

The dog breed most likely to bite you has been revealed

The culprit is a popular family pet

www.independent.co.uk

 

[SilverLinings]

There is a fairly comprehensive and up to date list of fatal attacks on humans on Wikipedia:

List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bullys certainly stand out in the data for the last couple of years.

ETA there are no labradors in the list, but several dogs are labelled as 'unknown breed'.

 

[Cortez]

Yes, I knew that labs were the biteyest breed in the UK; it's dachshunds in the US, apparently. And a statistician will tell you that is a function of being one of the most popular breeds, so more of them around to do the biting (well, that's what he told me).

 

[skinnydipper]

But where did you find the information (statistical information) that states labradors are recorded as having the highest number of bite attacks? You can't just say "oh well they are the most popular breed so therefore they must be the ones that bite the most?" That just isn't in anyway a fair or legitimate way of stating that statistic as a fact. I am not arguing that it could well be right, especially owning a particularly aggressive one myself but lets not go clutching figures out of mid air to try and manipulate facts and demonize one particular breed unfairly.

I'm Dun said this, so I just wondered which breeds.

And I'd make it much, much harder for anyone to own a large dog with the capability or propensity to attack people. But that would need policing and is very unlikely to happen.

 

[Clodagh]

Surely ‘propensity’ is the key word in I’m Dun’s post? So lab’s probably, proportionally, don’t actually want to kill people.

 

[skinnydipper]

Surely ‘propensity’ is the key word in I’m Dun’s post? So lab’s probably, proportionally, don’t actually want to kill people.

So biting people doesn't count?

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

"The family favourite labrador is responsible for the highest number of canine attack personal injury claims, according to research by pet insurers Animal Friends."

The dog breed most likely to bite you has been revealed

The culprit is a popular family pet

www.independent.co.uk

Ah right thank you for the link - well I have been on the insurance company's website and cannot find any information on statistics of breeds most likely to have an insurance claim for biting. However, the cynic in me might suggest that perhaps it is good advertising ploy as the labrador is indeed the most popular pet dog, and it is also therefore, the breed most likely to be insured and would therefore have more claims against it than other breeds that are not so popular?

I am getting myself confused now I think. But I never trust too much claims by insurers or others that do not back up their claims (excuse pun) with actual unbiased research and figures for all breeds. This is just a mathematical probability surely, not an actual fact?

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Just had another quick look on their website - they dont actually insure any gun dogs, in fact there is a long list of dogs they won't insure! I wonder if this is common, mine are both insured without any problem.

What Breeds are Excluded?

Find out about the breeds of dogs and cats that we do not cover under our Animal Friends pet insurance policies

www.animalfriends.co.uk

 

[SilverLinings]

And there's biting and there's biting. When my brother was 4yrs old he (after repeatedly being told not to) chased my granny's shihtzu under the dining room table and cornered her, and she nipped him and ran off. He was fine (taught him a lesson) and the dog never bit before or after that. On the otherhand I was attacked out of the blue by a friend's foreign rescue, and the dog really meant it. That dog went for a couple of other people shortly after, and is now muzzled when in public and shut away when they have visitors to the house.

The first dog did the bare minimum to defend herself, whereas the second dog was aggressive and went on the offensive. I expect that as labradors are very popular family dogs a lot of the bites recorded are likely to fall into the first camp, and be the result of bad behaviour/poor decisions on behalf of a child rather than being due to a dog with an aggression 'problem'.

 

[Cortez]

I've been bitten a couple of times breaking up fights (own fault), but the only dog that's ever really tried to have a piece of me was a toy poodle. A very sorry toy poodle immediately after that attempt.

Oh, and a shar pei had a go, but I had a lunge whip to hand.....