Another fatal dog attack

stangs

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That is very proactive of them; I suspect they (and other dog rescues) are terrified that they are going to be inundated with un-rehomeable dumped XL Bullys once the ban kicks in. Hopefully people take them up on the offer.
They're not going to be inundated because the ban will require every single one of those dogs be PTS after arriving at the rescue, regardless of rehomeability. Hundreds of pit-types PTS each year for the same reason.
 

SilverLinings

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They're not going to be inundated because the ban will require every single one of those dogs be PTS, regardless of rehomeability. Hundreds of pit-types PTS each year for the same reason.
It's the people who try to dump them as the ban approaches that will cause a problem, and doesn't the Dogs' Trust say that they will 'never put a healthy dog down'? Although once the breed is banned they won't have a choice, but it won't be pleasant if they've just had a large number of dogs abandoned on their doorstep.
 

stangs

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It's the people who try to dump them as the ban approaches that will cause a problem, and doesn't the Dogs' Trust say that they will 'never put a healthy dog down'? Although once the breed is banned they won't have a choice, but it won't be pleasant if they've just had a large number of dogs abandoned on their doorstep.
So people dump them before the ban; there is a brief period of needing more foster homes than usual (probably only for dogs not of type); and then they all get PTS and it's life back to normal. It's not pleasant, no, which is why all the major animal welfare charities have been campaigning against BSL for decades, including Dogs Trust.

Or to quote the CEO of Dogs Trust (this is from last year)
While the main aim of the Dog Control Coalition is to see the repeal of BSL, the group is urgently calling on the Government to change the law with regards to the rehoming of typed dogs - as recommended by the EFRA Committee to avoid the unnecessary euthanasia of happy, friendly dogs.
 

SilverLinings

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So people dump them before the ban; there is a brief period of needing more foster homes than usual (probably only for dogs not of type); and then they all get PTS and it's life back to normal. It's not pleasant, no, which is why all the major animal welfare charities have been campaigning against BSL for decades, including Dogs Trust.

Or to quote the CEO of Dogs Trust (this is from last year)
I think that what I was trying to say (badly!) is that yet again some owners will negate their responsibilities and instead of taking the time to muzzle train etc their dog a charity will end up being the 'bad guy' for having the dog PTS.

FWIW I don't think that a charity should have a policy of never PTS healthy dogs, as surely ones that are un-rehomeable due to aggression would be better off PTS than on their own in a kennel for the rest of their life. There are too many dogs already needing new homes to keep the unsafe ones in a rescue for up to 14+yrs of natural life.
 

SilverLinings

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But it isn't going to be a cull of existing pets, aren't they just going to be neutered muzzled and kept on leads in public?
And maybe licensed?
I thought it meant there would be a ban on sales, importation and breeding of them
As far as I understand it you also won't be able to sell, give away or re-home them, so rescues would have to PTS. I presume this is to stop people finding a way around the ban (e.g. "I didn't buy an XL Bully, my friend gave it to me and the £500 I gave them is unrelated...").
 

Quigleyandme

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So it’s a tax. Is it ring fenced for the dog warden? NI only, so new to every other part of the uk, would require legislation if introduced, which is a lot of people. I stand by what I said about the burden of evidence for new legislation.

Edit to say it looks like chipping was supposed to replace licences for the purpose of ID and management of dogs. If that didn’t work and it’s on the dog, why would a licence?
Forgive me please, I’ve had a long day, but I don’t understand the aversion to dog licensing. I don’t have a dog but if I did I would have no issue whatsoever with compliance. Keepers of equines here have an equine premises and herd number. We have an equine census every November. We can’t purchase certain medicines/herbicides without a herd number. I don’t find it overbearing or intrusive. If DAFM want to gather data on the population and distribution of equines for the purposes of disease control as they state I think that’s good but then horse breeding is pretty huge here both in terms of employment, contribution to the exchequer and global prestige.
 

SadKen

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Forgive me please, I’ve had a long day, but I don’t understand the aversion to dog licensing. I don’t have a dog but if I did I would have no issue whatsoever with compliance. Keepers of equines here have an equine premises and herd number. We have an equine census every November. We can’t purchase certain medicines/herbicides without a herd number. I don’t find it overbearing or intrusive. If DAFM want to gather data on the population and distribution of equines for the purposes of disease control as they state I think that’s good but then horse breeding is pretty huge here both in terms of employment, contribution to the exchequer and global prestige.
I have an aversion to any new legislation that isn’t of proven benefit. I don’t like the idea of criminalising ordinary people who don’t have a licence for whatever reason when they have done nothing wrong in a real sense besides not have a licence ‘you didn’t give us all your personal info and you haven’t paid your tax, you bad person’ - so what, who cares? Having a bit of paper does nothing to control dangerous dogs or teach owners anything, help victims, NOTHING. Current legislation re dangerous dogs already exists to try and control the actual problem of dogs out of control, and that isn’t enforced, as we keep seeing. Without proven benefit of having a licence it’s just a tax, and we pay enough of those anyway. Look at the criminalisation of people who don’t pay a telly licence or their council tax.

Even more important, given the job I do, is that we should be thinking hard about the processing of personal data that could be used by the govt for potentially nefarious processes which were never the original intention.

What about if it becomes punitive to get a licence for a big dog? 13 quid a year isn’t much. 100 per big dog is. 200? 500? Then what? You think everyone will comply because ‘it’s the law’?

It is sad to me that so many people are seemingly happy to have laws imposed on them and have no issue complying without any form of challenge as to why, what the possible consequences could be, how it would be enforced etc. It’s not up to the populace to comply blindly with any legislation the govt want to impose. It’s up to govt to prove - conclusively - that new legislation- new laws to control people and potentially criminalise them - are necessary and of provable benefit/need.

As I’ve said previously which also wasn’t well received: I don’t Want Something Done to make me think something has been done. I want to see a proposal that will actually work. Muzzles for all, on lead everywhere at all times, and licences imposed in a blanket fashion by legislation will not, in my opinion, work.
 

Clodagh

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If you have a dog license and just pick up all the dogs that do not have the correct tags and their owners have to pay a fine and license them to get them back it focuses peoples minds. The fact England ( in particular) couldn’t manage its way out of a paper bag is not a reason to discard potential and possibly very useful legislation.
 

bonny

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If you have a dog license and just pick up all the dogs that do not have the correct tags and their owners have to pay a fine and license them to get them back it focuses peoples minds. The fact England ( in particular) couldn’t manage its way out of a paper bag is not a reason to discard potential and possibly very useful legislation.
What if there were millions of dogs with no license? Who is going to go round impounding them, keeping them and making sure the owners pay to get them back ?
 

Clodagh

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What if there were millions of dogs with no license? Who is going to go round impounding them, keeping them and making sure the owners pay to get them back ?
It doesn’t happen for long. They’d have to be pts. You need a pound system. Yes it would be hard to start from scratch, my experience of it is in Australia where it was standard practice. The fact something is ‘too hard’ all the time is why society is up 💩 creek.
 

Tiddlypom

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What if there were millions of dogs with no license? Who is going to go round impounding them, keeping them and making sure the owners pay to get them back ?
Having the dog PTS after 7 days if no owner turns up to claim them might concentrate some people's minds.
 

Cortez

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I have an aversion to any new legislation that isn’t of proven benefit. I don’t like the idea of criminalising ordinary people who don’t have a licence for whatever reason when they have done nothing wrong in a real sense besides not have a licence ‘you didn’t give us all your personal info and you haven’t paid your tax, you bad person’ - so what, who cares? Having a bit of paper does nothing to control dangerous dogs or teach owners anything, help victims, NOTHING. Current legislation re dangerous dogs already exists to try and control the actual problem of dogs out of control, and that isn’t enforced, as we keep seeing. Without proven benefit of having a licence it’s just a tax, and we pay enough of those anyway. Look at the criminalisation of people who don’t pay a telly licence or their council tax.

Even more important, given the job I do, is that we should be thinking hard about the processing of personal data that could be used by the govt for potentially nefarious processes which were never the original intention.

What about if it becomes punitive to get a licence for a big dog? 13 quid a year isn’t much. 100 per big dog is. 200? 500? Then what? You think everyone will comply because ‘it’s the law’?

It is sad to me that so many people are seemingly happy to have laws imposed on them and have no issue complying without any form of challenge as to why, what the possible consequences could be, how it would be enforced etc. It’s not up to the populace to comply blindly with any legislation the govt want to impose. It’s up to govt to prove - conclusively - that new legislation- new laws to control people and potentially criminalise them - are necessary and of provable benefit/need.

As I’ve said previously which also wasn’t well received: I don’t Want Something Done to make me think something has been done. I want to see a proposal that will actually work. Muzzles for all, on lead everywhere at all times, and licences imposed in a blanket fashion by legislation will not, in my opinion, work.
But it does work, it works fairly well here (I live in Ireland), and in other countries too, by providing a means to fund dog wardens, who do a decent job of collecting strays and helping to contact owners, amongst other things. I cannot think of a negative. As for collecting your information, there isn’t a person alive in a western nation whose details aren’t already available to some government agency. Are you afraid that “they” will use your dog to do something nefarious? What, precisely?
 

Clodagh

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People like me would instantly toddle off and license my dogs. Heck I’d even buy them collars to put the tags on 😜.
People who are against controlling legislation would probably have to pay a fine and decide how much they liked their dog.
People who don’t care would lose their dog.
 
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YorksG

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It would be interesting to see who would be responsible when the dog has been lost by someone being paid to walk the dog. We found a young male dog, he had left his walker, we rang the number on his tag and his owner eventually came to collect him. If we had a licence system presumably the owner would be responsible for the dog, but the person who lost it was actually someone who was taking money for caring for it.
 

bonny

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Nobody is ever going to bring in legislation that could involve millions of dogs being pts and even if they did no one would ever enforce it. We can’t even have legislation that will get rid of bully dogs.
 

SadKen

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Having the dog PTS after 7 days if no owner turns up to claim them might concentrate some people's minds.
The British public won’t stand for that. Look at Dogs Trust. Look at dogs kept in police kennels for years. And even if they would you’d need a serious amount of police time and money - a MASSIVE amount - to manage it at all. And that’s assuming that people meekly hand over their dog - after they have been PROVEN not to have a licence - which they won’t. Or the dog will disappear.

And imagine the miscarriages of justice. What if someone’s dog was stolen? What if the chip was in but couldn’t be found? What if attempts to contact he owner didn’t work? This is a total non starter - rightly so.

Cortez - multi quote doesn’t work, but in terms of it working, you don’t have proof that it’s licences that work; a funded dog warden might work perfectly well, or hey, how about enforcing existing legislation? I’ve already made the point about provable benefit of legislation above. There are other non intrusive criminalising ways to give money to the dog warden. To prove dog licence benefit you could compare NI with GB as I mentioned up thread. Til then: it’s a guess.

MM - I don’t think most people would mind IF it would work. But there’s no evidence it will - current legislation isn’t policed, there’s no money or appetite; look at competing priorities for taxpayer funds.
 

SadKen

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People like me would instantly toddle off and license my dogs. Heck I’d even buy them collars to put the tags on 😜.
People who are against controlling legislation would probably have to pay a fine and decide how much they liked their dog.
People who don’t care would lose their dog.
Or they wouldn’t pay it
Would refuse to attend court and wait to be arrested. Top priority this, yes?
Would object and launch legal action clogging up the court system
Would hide the dog when the enforcer came round
Would fight with the enforcer (perhaps supported by neighbours - see what happened with the deaths of the kids on e-motorbikes for an example) when they came round. If I were an enforcer I wouldn’t be going, without lots of police backup - top priority this, yes?

Nobody is going to hand over their dog meekly, except people who will eagerly comply and get their tag on their collar. And in all honesty, people who will comply aren’t causing the problems we are talking about.

Again, for those supporting it: please tell me how a licence for a dog is going to reduce or prevent dog attacks? Literally how will the bit of paper do that? If funding for the dog warden is your argument there are many other ways to fund a dog warden.
 

conniegirl

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The British public won’t stand for that.
They already do. Current council pounds will only hold a dog for 7 days and after that if no rescue will take them the dog is PTS.
We had a thing round here where 2 Bullys were found roaming, they were not chipped and after 6 days the dogs had not been claimed, no rescue had space/would take them so some do-gooder put a post out on social media pleading for someone to take them. The dogs were PTS
 

SadKen

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They already do. Current council pounds will only hold a dog for 7 days and after that if no rescue will take them the dog is PTS.
We had a thing round here where 2 Bullys were found roaming, they were not chipped and after 6 days the dogs had not been claimed, no rescue had space/would take them so some do-gooder put a post out on social media pleading for someone to take them. The dogs were PTS
Now do that in massive volumes where the dog hasn’t done anything, is not roaming - it’s just the owner doesn’t have a bit of paper and hasn’t paid their tax. No comparison.

Clodagh - I didn’t say it was outrageous. I said the burden is on govt to prove benefit/need if imposing legislation that criminalises citizens - I don’t see why that is controversial?

I also said it wouldn’t work. I’ve seen no evidence to show that it would work to reduce dog attacks or any other behaviour involving dogs that’s not wanted. And nobody has been able to explain to me how a piece of paper and a tax will do anything at all. Go ahead if you would like to explain. As above, if it’s funding the dog warden, there are many other ways to do that.

As to my suggestion: any funding available should go towards proper enforcement of existing legislation. I would pay extra £10 happily on my insurance to help fund. Most responsible dog owners would, yes? And no legislation needed.
 

DirectorFury

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Why should the general tax take pay for dog wardens? All dogs are owned, so it makes sense that dog owners pay for the wardens to police them.
You could extend this argument to many things that people don't use but that their general taxation funds:
- I don't have children, why should my general tax take pay for schools/teachers/subsidised nursery hours/child benefit/ad infinitum? All children have people with legal responsibility for them, so it makes sense that those people pay for their education/child care/etc.
- I don't drive, why should my general tax take pay for roads/the DVLA/the MOT system/roads policing? All cars are owned, so it makes sense that car owners pay for the repairs/monitoring/policing of them.
- I don't need carers, why should my general tax take pay for people to receive care?
- I don't use my local library, why should my general tax take pay to run it?

The wider answer is that we tend to pay for things that we don't directly benefit from because there's an indirect benefit by making society better.
 

SadKen

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Why should the general tax take pay for dog wardens? All dogs are owned, so it makes sense that dog owners pay for the wardens to police them.
The general tax take pays for policing, which dangerous dogs are part of.

Dog warden is paid for through council tax, and by owners who pay fines on collection. (As an aside, my council tax pays for a lot of things I get no benefit from, as I don’t have or do the thing that’s funded, but that’s the way general taxation works). That’s already operating; specifically, how would extra funding for the dog warden prevent dog attacks? Police enforce dangerous dogs legislation not wardens. Or do you think a dog licence charge should go to the police? 🤔
 
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