Anti bark collars

CorvusCorax said:
Dree, you've indicated that perhaps you're not in a good place right now, it's late and we're probably all tired, and I don't think it's worth further engaging at this point. Night.
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Ummm, no, I'm fine, but having had someone quite close commit suicide not so long ago, it's something I am always very, very aware of. But I'm ok, so thank-you for your concern. Tired, yes, but could you answer what "Yes, we probably have" meant? Thanks.
 
dree said:
Oh, you don't like my posting style. What if I don't like yours? Is it a big deal?

I rub people up the wrong way with a diverse range of post history? Hanging offence???? When I first started posting , there was no leeway when I made mistakes, since I hadn't been on a forum for years. (Didn't realise they still existed!!) But no-one said.....it's ok, we understand.....it was, oh look, Dree's made a huge sodding mistake.....again.....on the first/second day of coming on here. No sympathy.....just jumping down my throat. That's not the way people should communicate, no matter how they are doing it. You have no idea who I am. No idea of my mental state. I personally think you should all take your arrogance and have a rethink on how you treat people on this forum. Maybe you've been here too long. I should state that a couple of people are really nice, ask questions or whatever. I try my best to answer all questions as correctly as possible. If that is an offence (and apparently showing how wonderful I am....I wish!!) then I can only apologise. I love my dogs deeply, and I love obedience deeply. They have taken over from horses, which were the love of my life, so I try to help/answer as best I can. If I go on too much (as I am here!!) I do apologise. But if anyone wants help, I will jump through hoops to help them.

Edit to add.....I have not insinuated that anyone who does not train as I do is cruel. Where have I done that??

And, yes, I mixed you up with someone else re: the e-collars, so my sincere apologies for that.
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I do have to agree with some of this. In this section of the forum there seem to be a couple of people who seem to think there word is law. They may have a lot of experience with dogs. They may use old fashioned methods. They may have been on this forum for ever and a day but that does not mean they are always correct.
There should be room for different points of view and methods. Dog training has come a long way and things are changing. Just because you have always done something one way doesn't mean it's the only way.
 
dree said:
One of my first bitches came from horrific conditions....again from a farm.....you know.....those people whose dogs you like to see doing what they do best.....rounding up the sheep. And my second bitch was from a rescue bitch.....we didn't know she was in pup. (I used to take dogs from the vet, retrain and rehome.)
I take great exception at your comment about farms and working collies, both back down south and where I am now in the Highlands I have not experienced any bad treatment of the working collies, I am not saying it does not exist but all of the dogs I have seen apart from one I currently have (her history is not known to me) are bloody wet blankets when it comes to a cuddle, how do you think you get the dogs to herd as nature has bred them to do but to call off when asked? If everyone used a shock collar to get the dogs of sheep there were be very few working collies as they would all think sheep give out pain. The dogs come away for a fuss initially and then they learn coming of men's going back to sheep so the reward is in the work.
I spent over 18 years as a pet dog trainer before starting with working collies, I also spent 14 yrs at a vets and would take on unwanted dogs, get them well and find a good known home.
The worst bad treatment/cruelty I have seen has been was by a collie breeder and her daughter, they did obedience and would show. They had one dog that was dog aggressive and he would be taken behind a marquee by the mother before a showing class and given a 'hiding' to keep him 'straight' in the class, the other had to do this as if the daughter did it he would be 'too flat' when showing. It was known that they did this and accepted/ignored.
There are bad owners of all breeds and in all situations but from what I have seen most shepherds may shout (a lot) but are generally pretty soft on their dogs, after all people like us depend on their dogs, we are self employed and our dogs help us earn a large part of our living.
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I think debate about training methods is interesting and enjoyable. The trouble is when people stop debating and start arguing! We all have different opinions on the best way to achieve results and in all walks of life, from pet dogs to police dogs, there are people that abuse/are too hard/ shouldn't own a sentient being.
Our way is not always the right way or the only way.
 
rabatsa said:
And dogs differ too, what works for a soft dog would be ignored by a hard dog. They can be motivated by different things, trying to get a lurcher off a deer in full flight and visibility is not the same as stopping a bored dog from removing the stuffing from a cushion.
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Very good point.
Well my horrible puppy has just been in the garden while I lopped some branches off a tree (also in the garden). She got bored so dug a mammoth hole, chewed my husbands shoe and then put it in the hole and then stalked some chicks and ate their food. My fault entirely, no point telling her off. She has been on the go with me since 6am. This is why people don't have trials bred labs as pets!
 
Sandstone1 said:
I do have to agree with some of this. In this section of the forum there seem to be a couple of people who seem to think there word is law. They may have a lot of experience with dogs. They may use old fashioned methods. They may have been on this forum for ever and a day but that does not mean they are always correct.
There should be room for different points of view and methods. Dog training has come a long way and things are changing. Just because you have always done something one way doesn't mean it's the only way.
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How terribly subtle Sandstone when we have just disagreed about the use of citronella spray collars 🙄

In very general terms, and not aimed at Sandstone in any way, I totally agree that there are many ways to train dogs. As far as I recall, I have never stated that my way is ‘the only way’ and that newer methods should not be used - I simply use the method which I think will be effective for the dog in question

For a toughnut terrier I know that treats or clicker training (for example) won’t overcome ingrained behaviours established over many years. They may be exactly the right thing for my sensitive greyhound boy who reacts to loud noises or sudden movements.

Conversely to other posters, what does annoy me on this section of the forum is when users ask about a training method which is considered ‘old fashioned’ now and are promptly labelled as cruel or unkind - that may be the case if that method is used inappropriately, but it need not always be the case. I’ve used large link choke chains in the past for example - people would throw their hands up in horror now at that idea - but FOR THE DOG IN QUESTION it was an effective intervention. Which won’t stop people suggesting that I’m cruel/old fashioned/out dated/barbaric I’m sure 🙄
 
Levrier said:
How terribly subtle Sandstone when we have just disagreed about the use of citronella spray collars 🙄

In very general terms, and not aimed at Sandstone in any way, I totally agree that there are many ways to train dogs. As far as I recall, I have never stated that my way is ‘the only way’ and that newer methods should not be used - I simply use the method which I think will be effective for the dog in question

For a toughnut terrier I know that treats or clicker training (for example) won’t overcome ingrained behaviours established over many years. They may be exactly the right thing for my sensitive greyhound boy who reacts to loud noises or sudden movements.

Conversely to other posters, what does annoy me on this section of the forum is when users ask about a training method which is considered ‘old fashioned’ now and are promptly labelled as cruel or unkind - that may be the case if that method is used inappropriately, but it need not always be the case. I’ve used large link choke chains in the past for example - people would throw their hands up in horror now at that idea - but FOR THE DOG IN QUESTION it was an effective intervention. Which won’t stop people suggesting that I’m cruel/old fashioned/out dated/barbaric I’m sure 🙄
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I'm a great believer in old fashioned methods. I even yell at my dogs occasionally - which I am sure is extremely unpositive training. They actually understand FOR F***S SAKE quite well. :-)
Thing about old fashioned methods (not the sort of 'carry a dog around by it's ears' training but may be the 'tap on the bum' type thing) is they are effective, generally. Some of the modern stuff (never tell a dog it is doing anything wrong just let it learn by itself with happy guidance) is totally ineffective. Both have their place and sometimes you need to mix it up a bit.
 
Clodagh said:
Some of the modern stuff (never tell a dog it is doing anything wrong just let it learn by itself with happy guidance) is totally ineffective.
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I tried my very best to get the JRT to to associate horses being ridden past outside our frontage to being called over for a treat and a tummy scratch. Occasionally, if he was right by me, he’d fall for it come over obediently for a fuss, but mostly it was much more fun to rush over and woof at the horses all the way along the fence line as they went past. The anti bark collar was much more effective.

And as for recall if he put up a bunny on a walk, well, pfttt. Hence the extending lead (which are very useful if used as intended, with the lock on if necessary).
 
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Clodagh said:
I think debate about training methods is interesting and enjoyable. The trouble is when people stop debating and start arguing! We all have different opinions on the best way to achieve results and in all walks of life, from pet dogs to police dogs, there are people that abuse/are too hard/ shouldn't own a sentient being.
Our way is not always the right way or the only way.
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Hallelujah! I usually enjoy this forum (I only really come on for the dog section) but it's made me cringe of late. Let's debate different training and husbandry methods but can we have less of the argumentative bickering, please.
 
I am not a positive only trainer (I wish I had the skill set to be) but do try to use positive rewards based methods where I can, and especially with puppies when learning new behaviours. However, I will use "no" (which I believe some positive only trainers disagree with) and I will raise my voice, tap on the bum etc if I feel it is warranted. I've always tried to train the dog in front of me and different dogs often require different approaches.
 
Levrier said:
How terribly subtle Sandstone when we have just disagreed about the use of citronella spray collars 🙄

In very general terms, and not aimed at Sandstone in any way, I totally agree that there are many ways to train dogs. As far as I recall, I have never stated that my way is ‘the only way’ and that newer methods should not be used - I simply use the method which I think will be effective for the dog in question

For a toughnut terrier I know that treats or clicker training (for example) won’t overcome ingrained behaviours established over many years. They may be exactly the right thing for my sensitive greyhound boy who reacts to loud noises or sudden movements.

Conversely to other posters, what does annoy me on this section of the forum is when users ask about a training method which is considered ‘old fashioned’ now and are promptly labelled as cruel or unkind - that may be the case if that method is used inappropriately, but it need not always be the case. I’ve used large link choke chains in the past for example - people would throw their hands up in horror now at that idea - but FOR THE DOG IN QUESTION it was an effective intervention. Which won’t stop people suggesting that I’m cruel/old fashioned/out dated/barbaric I’m sure 🙄
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It wasn't intended to be subtle at all. In fact if you want it in black and white yes you are one of the posters I mean. There are other methods and more up to date thinking on dog training. Your way is one but there are others.
 
Sandstone1 said:
It wasn't intended to be subtle at all. In fact if you want it in black and white yes you are one of the posters I mean. There are other methods and more up to date thinking on dog training. Your way is one but there are others.
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Funnily enough that’s exactly what I said 🙄

I’d also be interested to find out when I’ve ever said ‘mine is the only training method that should be used’?
 
ester said:
Hope that helps, it was quite obvious to me :) but thought would help to point out that is all I'm sure CC meant. (working up to 50k post party here ;) )
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Thanks. There was no quote with it, but I should have maybe joined the dots! Was tired, so that's my only excuse.
 
Levrier said:
Conversely to other posters, what does annoy me on this section of the forum is when users ask about a training method which is considered ‘old fashioned’ now and are promptly labelled as cruel or unkind - that may be the case if that method is used inappropriately, but it need not always be the case. I’ve used large link choke chains in the past for example - people would throw their hands up in horror now at that idea - but FOR THE DOG IN QUESTION it was an effective intervention. Which won’t stop people suggesting that I’m cruel/old fashioned/out dated/barbaric I’m sure 🙄
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Not quite sure where anyone has said that "old-fashioned" is cruel? (Unkind, maybe, depending on the circumstances, but I personally don't remember anyone saying that you were cruel?) But personally, I would not use a check chain on a dog.
 
dree said:
Not quite sure where anyone has said that "old-fashioned" is cruel? (Unkind, maybe, depending on the circumstances, but I personally don't remember anyone saying that you were cruel?) But personally, I would not use a check chain on a dog.
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No I didn't think for a moment you would use one :) In the same way that (for example) I wouldn't use the horrible fine-linked chains that dog show people use to 'string up' hounds and terriers in the show ring, I imagine it is something that doesn't sit well with you?

I would remind you that you yourself said I was cruel..... I stated I had used a citronella spray collar, posts #19 and #20 on this thread you stated that these collars were cruel..... hope that helps :)
 
Levrier said:
No I didn't think for a moment you would use one :) In the same way that (for example) I wouldn't use the horrible fine-linked chains that dog show people use to 'string up' hounds and terriers in the show ring, I imagine it is something that doesn't sit well with you?

I would remind you that you yourself said I was cruel..... I stated I had used a citronella spray collar, posts #19 and #20 on this thread you stated that these collars were cruel..... hope that helps :)
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No, I don't like the fine check chains used in breed showing. I did not say you were cruel, I said that I believe the collars are cruel. No point in using them, especially if another dog is close. (You want me to remember posts 19 and 20?? I take it you have actually taken the time to look these up??? What a waste of time. Or you have a superb memory. :rolleyes:)
 
dree said:
No, I don't like the fine check chains used in breed showing. I did not say you were cruel, I said that I believe the collars are cruel. No point in using them, especially if another dog is close. (You want me to remember posts 19 and 20?? I take it you have actually taken the time to look these up??? What a waste of time. Or you have a superb memory. :rolleyes:)
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Honestly Dree, it is posts like this that really annoy people, long time established users or not. No, you did not explicitly say that I was cruel, you suggested it by association which anyone with a modicum of understanding of the English language would understand

I can say without a doubt, based on your previous posting history, that if I had NOT given you those specific references you would have claimed I was attributing things to you incorrectly.

Since I have given them, you claim I have "wasted my time" looking them up.

To explain, the sort of approach that you have used is called 'internet trolling' - posting things which are specifically designed to cause a reaction. Those of us who have been on the forum for a long time have seen it hundreds of times over the years, and it really does get a bit tedious and repetitive after a while. You will now claim I am arrogant, rude, a bully, etc etc etc.
 
Levrier said:
Funnily enough that’s exactly what I said 🙄

I’d also be interested to find out when I’ve ever said ‘mine is the only training method that should be used’?
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you may not have said it but have possibly implied it by the way you answer. That's how it comes across to me anyway. Maybe I'm wrong.
personally, I do not like spray or electric collars or check chains. You may feel differently. I have used check chains in the dim and distant past but like to think things have evolved and there are many different kinder options now.
I won't be intimidated by long term posters who put down more positive methods.
we will have to agree to differ.
 
have read all of this thread and have had to sit on my fingers but will now put my point of view...... what must be kept in mind is the dog in front of you at the time and some slightly more forceful means may be necessary, for instance if you have taken on a large adult dog who has no manners a choke collar together with a normal collar may be useful in the case of said large dog deciding it will run across the road and take no notice of the normal collar, you then have a second strategy. i have had different breeds and collies seem to train themselves and only need things explained once at the other end of the spectrum is terriers who need telling countless times and can be quite challenging, and lots of others in between. one training method CANNOT be used for every dog.....
 
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