Are there really that many mis-sold horses?

[Upthecreek]

In showjumping I’ve found that many of the dealers have VERY competent riders working for them, who are able to iron out/ mask behavioural issues before they even arise.

I think a lot of ‘mis-selling’ is due to the horse suddenly having a far weaker rider on it. This is one of the reasons I probably wouldn’t view a horse that’s been mainly ridden by a strong man!

Exactly this. Also is quite often why a horse that has been professionally schooled to sell starts to unravel after a few weeks in a new home being ridden by a much less experienced rider. Many people do not realise that keeping a horse well schooled is an ongoing process. Many people think if a horse hacked solo confidently in it's previous home it will do so straight away in a new home with a different rider. I would most definitely avoid saying any horse I was selling is ‘suitable for a novice’ as you would just be leaving yourself wide open to being accused of mis-selling if it does anything unpredictable that the owner can’t manage.

 

[milliepops]

This is a very good point, on top of that I feel a lot of people even if they've owned for decades have very little experience handling and riding beyond the one or two horses they've owned. If the only horse you've handled for the last 15 years is one you know inside out it can be a massive shock dealing with something unknown, even if you've handled problems like it in the past you sort of forget about the bad stuff you dealt with and overcame.

So true. i think i've had 8 to ride in the last decade but each time it's been a bit of an "OMG what now " at the start, you forget all the problems quite quickly i think so it's a new experience each time

 

[Starzaan]

I have to say that I think whilst there are mis sold horses, there are a lot more cases of people vastly over horsing themselves and then deciding the horse has been mis sold.

 

[Lady Jane]

The definition of missold to me would be that the seller knew and didn't declare, that the horse was unsound or had a high risk of becoming unsound, had a temperament/behaviour problem that would show up in a different environment or at a different time of year, or was drugged or deliberately dehydrated.

Almost anything else is misbought. So most claims of misselling are actually misbuying or a failure to allow a new horse long enough to settle in a new home.
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Spot on!

 

[AntiPuck]

This is a really interesting thread. I can see both sides of this, in terms of the 'mis-sold' and 'mis-bought' horses.

Having recently bought my first horse, who found the move very difficult (and still is doing), I could not really have anticipated how she would react and behave once moved yards, she is certainly not (yet) the horse I tried in that sense, but whilst i'm a novice owner, I know enough to see that it wouldn't be fair to judge her nor her previous owner on how she has behaved since moving, and I know that it's my job to get help and deal with any issues we now have as this is what I signed up for.

I think the only recourse you really have in terms of 'mis-sold' horses would be when the horse was drugged/dehydrated/otherwise manipulated in bad faith to make it appear different to the potential buyer, or to hide a known issue.

 

[Wishfilly]

I do think horses get mis-sold. There used to be (maybe still is) a known scam where people would remicrochip ex-racers and sell them as sports horse types, because they would get more money that way. Often, this caused a lot of difficulty and distress to the new owners when discovered.

I also know of a horse who was sold on with full disclosure of medical issues and a history of being "quirky" who I later saw advertised on facebook being very much misdescribed (and with an asking price very much higher than what she paid). Maybe she planned to disclose the history of lameness at viewings, but given the pricetag, I think that was unlikely.

And another family sold a pony with a known history of taking off with young riders- their daughter was a complete novice, and they were very obviously novices (if you met them, you'd be able to tell). Maybe there was full disclosure- I don't know all the details- but in the case of an experienced seller selling to a clearly novice family, surely they should realise that it wouldn't be a good match?

I do think selling horses is a minefield, and I do agree horses can change drastically in different settings, though. I think it's fairly well known that a lot of riding school horses, when taken out of that environment, become very different animals!

But I do equally think those who want to take advantage of someone to sell on often target novices.

Sometimes, perhaps it can be both- the horse is not perfectly described, and shouldn't have been sold to that person- but that person has equally perhaps overestimated themselves, and is keeping the horse in a less than ideal way, which is making things worse.

 

[Wishfilly]

I think the only recourse you really have in terms of 'mis-sold' horses would be when the horse was drugged/dehydrated/otherwise manipulated in bad faith to make it appear different to the potential buyer, or to hide a known issue.

Legally, especially if sold by a dealer, you have a lot more recourse than that.

 

[skint1]

I have come to the conclusion that buying, selling, keeping and riding horses is a minefield. it's fine though, it's my minefield of choice

 

[honetpot]

i doubt it, unless legally declared dangerous, most anxiety issues can be sorted in the right hands

So many people would see that pony as a problem, and in the wrong hands he could be dangerous, he could mow a child over in his efforts to get away or get to something. We understood his anxiety and worked around it, so often he and you would forget, and then something would trigger it.
The classic phrase when something crops up after sale is, 'have they ever done this before', as if you are hiding something, when really there is always a first time, and it is usually when an animal feels unsettled.

 

[Cowpony]

I've taken on a loan pony who is owned by a friend at the yard where I keep mine. Pony hasn't changed yards and is in much more consistent work with me, but at first she was unwilling to go forward when I rode her, and she challenged me aggressively in the field for months. 10 months later she's still pulling faces in the field but no longer trying to kill me, and we got our first BD points last weekend. My goodness it's been a tough journey, and there have been times when I've wondered whether to stop the loan! I'm now considering whether to make my friend an offer for her. I daren't think what would have happened if she'd changed yards as well as handler.

 

[Cob Life]

I think people underestimate how much a change in routine and riding style can change a horse.
A change in rider can change the now fairly well schooled horse who I can rid stop and turn on a loose rein who you would describe as suitable for a novice to a complete psychopath who tanks off from a walk and will spook at “nothing”, and it can take me 2 or 3 rides to school him back to where he was, and the only thing that changed there is the rider!

So imagine what a change of home, daily routine, feed as well can do…

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I have known one horse that was both mis-sold and mis-bought in the same sale. Teenager had a nice solid 14 hh cob, which she decided she had outgrown. Went to view a 15.hh TBx, which her parents bought for her. Mother told us that teen looked lovely on her, we then found out that horse had bucked her off at the viewing. They got a local pro to school the horse and teach the teen and eventually to sell it for them. Why would you buy a horse that bucked your child off? Why would you sell your horse to a girl that it bucked off?
Incidentally the cob was sold to an adult who had it for years and never outgrew it. Teen gave up horses.

 

[Kaylum]

When I put my horse on loan to a woman who was riding him after I had had an operation she moved him to nearer her house so she could ride him more. He was 100% on the roads easy to stop no shying perfect. Well she moved him and he turned into a total stress head it blew his mind. He was dangerous on the road spinning and turning. So if I had sold him to her he would have been missold. He came back to the yard and was back to normal as soon as he stepped off the lorry, so she rode him there instead.

 

[Shilasdair]

I think we also tend to breed far too many flashy competition horses for dressage, SJ and eventing in the UK - far more than we have riders who want or need them.
I'd like to see some studs breeding overheight Highlands, Clydesdales x Tbs, Welsh cob x Tbs and others suitable for a more riding club owner.

 

[Jules111]

I benefitted from by buying a nice 15:2 cob from a lady who was adamant he'd been miss-sold to her. She'd bought what she thought was a safe, sound cob who was suitable for a confident novice. In the 3 months she'd owned him he was napping every time she left the yard and could go from lazy to cantering off in a stride. I tried him and found he was overweight, behind the leg and basically looking to test any rider with the least amount of effort on his part. I hacked him, he stopped, tried to turn for home and when asked firmly to walk on did exactly as he was told. The cantering off seemed to be a result of a few too many pony club kicks followed by a whack from a stick and a pull to the mouth. I genuinely think the owner had accidently trained this lazy cob to put up a small fight and reward him by getting off, untacking him and turning him out. I bought him for a much lower price than he's now worth. He is genuinely suitable for a confident novice. Unfortunately, I think that owner/rider confidence can be lost so easily, as a result the horse that really needs to trust the owner/rider really struggles and sadly suffers. I'm so happy this boy came to me, he's a genuinely straight forward ride who will test if not given clear direction but is safe, happy and easy when everything is clear.

 

[Caol Ila]

Good thread. And yes, to everything. I have come across the mis-bought, the mis-sold, and everything in between. Some novice owners at my yard ended up with a hot, anxious Irish sporthorse, sold as suitable for an inexperienced 14-year old, and they weren't experienced enough to vet it. It was pretty wild. t may have been drugged. This would not surprise me. Around the time Gypsum was PTS and I was looking for something ridable, they sweetly offered this horse to me. I had a choice between spending 4k on an ex-feral Highland, who was a bit of a trainwreck, or a loan ISH, who was also a trainwreck. I reckoned that the Highland's issues were something I had the skills to fix, but I was doubtful of betting even a month's livery that I could sort out this bonkers ISH. And I am not a novice 14-year old.

I have another friend at the yard, who plods on and on, diligently trying everything to sort out her furry, four-legged vet bill. Never once does she b1tch and moan about the horse being missold (she probably was), but she plainly got a raw deal from day 1. Yet the she is going to the mat to make this horse happy and pain free.

When I did my stint as a freelance trainer, I saw the incompatible matches. So many. Some of the owners were willing to work their butts off, to make themselves into the people their horses needed, and others were annoyed that I could not wave a magic wand over their horses during my fortnightly visits and make them easier.

Before I moved to the UK, I bought an unbroke 3-year old draft cross, backed him, produced him, then put him on the market. He did not sell before I had to leave the country, so I put him into sales livery with my barn's trainer. She continued his education -- she was a nice rider so definitely increased his value -- and eventually found a buyer. We emphasised that he was five; he had a calm, willing nature, but he was a green five year old who needed an experienced rider to continue his education. I wrote the ad, so I know what I said! I did not meet the people who bought him (obviously, I was 8000 miles away), but my trainer and my mother did. Said they were not super experienced, but they were working closely with their trainer. In a lot of US barns, this means the trainer rides the horse 99% of the time. Fine, I said, not in the financial position to be overly picky and having realised that no one wants greenbroke draft crosses. Everyone wants 7-12 year old horses who can reliably hack in company or solo, do a First Level dressage test, and calmly jump a 2'6 course. Beggars cannot be choosers.

About six months later, a friend sent me a link to an ad on the US equivalent of HorseQuest (DreamHorse), and said, "Wasn't this your baby horse?" And there he was. Trotting around an arena, ears back, tail swishing. And he was such a cheerful lad when I had him. Happy to try anything. The ad said something like, "Dante is a sweet horse but he is unfortunately greener than we thought." No f*&)*ckin' sh1t!!! I don't know where he ended up, but I hope someone nice bought him.

Sellers lie like rugs about horses. Buyers lie like rugs (mainly to themselves) about their abilities. Like someone said in an earlier post, it's a minefield, but it's our f*(ckin' minefield.

 

[Bonnie Allie]

Definitely agree most horses are mis-bought. In addition, buyers don’t ask enough questions. Or don’t ask questions they don’t want to hear the answers to. They also don’t do sufficient background checking.

They also want instant results and think they can buy a result.

Hubby is a trainer and most of his work comes from folk who have recently purchased the horse and things have gone south in about 6 weeks.

He spends a lot of time with the new owner having a very pragmatic discussion about their skill (not experience as experienced riders are not always skilful riders). Most don’t have the skill for the horse they have bought, plus only ride once or twice per week and are not fully prepared for how long it takes to get a horse well educated and going well.

If they want the horse “fixed up” so it can be resold, he declines as he can’t have his reputation impacted by numpties. If they want to work on skill and schooling the horse together - all good. His measure of success is being able to make himself redundant as he has transferred skill to the owner at the same time as solving the issues the horse is displaying.

 

[Nudibranch]

I do think people often underestimate the effect of a move on a horse. We moved house in February and my normally sensible Dales was an absolute fruit loop for about a month. This with the same out 24/7 routine, same companion, same owner. I haven't actually had time to ride since the move but I'm going to start taking her out in hand soon for a few walks before I get back on board. She was used to travelling, sometimes even stayed for a few nights away, but a full house move sent her totally round the bend.

 

[TPO]

I know I always harp on about this but horses are too easily got/bought by anyone.

Look how many novice/first time owners post on here *after* buying (or "rescuing/saving") a horse that they didn't see and/or try and/or vet. It's somehow always the fault of the seller even when the seller has been honest in a "sold from field" situation.

There's also so many people who like to make out that their horse is difficult/feral/not for a novice etc and that the horse comes from an awful place/situation/seller ? They are out of their depth so there's a lot of exaggerating and creating of issues to make a good story and hide their ineptitude. It's creates a false impression of sellers/breeders. If they were half as experienced or as able as they imply then the things they go out about would have been non issues.

 

[scruffyponies]

Agree with everything above. I would say that as a buyer at the bottom end of the market, it is possible to pick up real bargains from people who believe they have the devil in horse form, when in reality the horse has them pegged for an idiot, and is reacting accordingly.

I would add another category. There are plenty of horses who are sold and bought honestly, but who are trainable, and can be transformed by their new owner in just a few weeks (sometimes days!). If the horse is lucky, his ability and value rise as his new owner 'produces' him. Much more often (IME) he realises he can get away with anything, and if he starts acting up he doesn't have to do any work, and a happy, disciplined horse turns into an anxious, unpredictale 'project'. This is NOT the horses fault, or the sellers for that matter.

 

[little_critter]

Many inexperienced horse buyers, and particularly first time owners, have absolutely no idea how much impact changes in environment and management can have on how horses behave in a new home. I honestly think many more horses are mis-bought than mis-sold. The new owner expects the horse to settle in immediately and adapt to it’s whole world changing from the word go and when this doesn’t happen they jump to the conclusion that the seller has lied and deliberately mis-sold the horse.

I put my hand up. I’ve owned horses for 10 years, current one for 3 years. I thought I knew him. We moved yard to one that didn’t turn out for a few months over winter, but went on the Walker daily. I thought he’d cope ok.
He didn’t.
Over 3 months he got progressively more spooky and I was slow to realise it was the lack of turnout causing it (he seemed chilled in his stable, it was only when ridden in the school that he had issues)
Having moved yard he’s instantly back to his old self and rideable again.
Silly mistake on my part and I’ve learned my lesson.

 

[eahotson]

Some years ago I bought a little Highland.Even before I went to see him I asked if he was quiet as I was a nervous rider.I was assured he was.I didn't have my excellent trainer then so off I went.He seemed quiet and I liked him so I bought him.I then joined a Highland forum.When I told them who I had bought it seemed he was quite well known.His last owner but one had sold him because he frightened her to death.He turned very sharp and spooky and I struggled with him for about three years.He wrecked whatever nerve I had.I sold him via a selling livery and I was very frank.He went to a man to ride. It worked because they kept him in different circumstances to me.He only rode out with his wife but it did turn out that he had a problem with his eyesight in one eye too.
When I was looking for a new horse this time my farrier warned me to be careful because he said there was a lot of rubbish being sold.My vet concurred with this and said he had to fail many vettings for unsoundness.
Having said there there are people who overhorse themselves etc.and blame the horse and the seller.One instructor told me that the ones she dreaded are the ones that ask her to go and see a horse for them.She said I go, I say No and they say "Well I am going to buy him anyway because I have fallen in love with him."

 

[eahotson]

I put my hand up. I’ve owned horses for 10 years, current one for 3 years. I thought I knew him. We moved yard to one that didn’t turn out for a few months over winter, but went on the Walker daily. I thought he’d cope ok.
He didn’t.
Over 3 months he got progressively more spooky and I was slow to realise it was the lack of turnout causing it (he seemed chilled in his stable, it was only when ridden in the school that he had issues)
Having moved yard he’s instantly back to his old self and rideable again.
Silly mistake on my part and I’ve learned my lesson.

We all make mistakes.

 

[scruffyponies]

Some years ago I was at pony club camp with a little dartmoor pony who had been given to us FTGH some years earlier. He was quite distinctive (liver chestnut with salt and pepper mane/tail), so was recognised by one of the other parents, who looked him over, turned to me and said "that can't be JB - he's so... good!"

Turns out he had quite the reputation. We had him for 20 years. He was an angel.

 

[Bernster]

I tend to be really cautious and careful when I get a new horse. Have lots of help, lessons, take care to make sure I have a good set up for them, and recognise it may take a while, with lots of ups and downs, before the horse ‘settles’. Even longer to become a partnership.

Bertie took a good few weeks to settle and we’re still working on our partnership 10 months later. But I feel sure that the horse I tried and bought is there, and he’s shown lots of that already, we’re just still ironing out some kinks as we progress.

I did mis-buy quite spectacularly once, got an expensive youngster who was too sharp for me and had me off twice. Dealer wouldn’t take him back despite having a return warranty. I sold him for what I’d paid for him, and he was a very successful show jumper with younger, bolder, new owner.

 

[oldie48]

Oh how I dislike it when people talk about "flashy competition types" in derogatory terms (Shildair's post) and suggest they are not suitable as RC horses and then in other threads people complain that their unflashy horses never get placed in competitions. Surely we should all be buying (and breeding) for temperament? Over the years we have had 17 different horses and ponies, all breeds, sizes and generally very capable of doing the job for which they were bought. We've had to deal with problems over the years, that's horses but only one has ever become difficult on moving yards, if anything I'd say they have tended to be a bit quieter with their true personality showing after 6 months or so. We've had some fairly flashy competition horses and they have been no more tricky to ride or handle than natives and native crosses except in sitting trot! The one that became very difficult was an 8 year old QH/TB, who was an absolute saint to hack in company. Although quite novicey I happily cantered him in open country across the Quantocks, he'd pop logs, was wonderful to handle but he developed extreme separation anxiety when moved to my own yard with just my daughter's pony mare so he was sold to someone who kept him on a big competition yard where he was as happy as Larry again. I'd had him for nearly a year and it was a sad sale but he needed more horsey company so he didn't get fixated on just one friend. I saw him twice after selling him, first time he was doing a pairs HT, second time he was out with Bloodhounds. His new owner adored him. fwiw I see more rude bolshy cobs than any other type but I also see lots that are nice sensible forward rides with good manners on the ground

 

[scats]

I also think a lot of people don’t always set horses up for success. No matter what I buy, I initially try to put it in situations that are manageable and will build confidence. It doesn’t matter whether they have come from a home where they have hacked alone for miles and miles, I’m not going to take it out on day one and expect it to go with a strange human in a strange environment, and then have a meltdown when it naps or kicks off.
I can’t work out if some people just lack this common sense or think horses should behave like motorbikes.

 

[southerncomfort]

I think many people buy too quickly without trying the horse properly, without asking the right questions and without thinking it through properly. ETA I did this once. The pony wasn't really right for us but we kept her and worked around her quirks.

Certainly since covid sent the market mad, their has been pressure to make a snap decision. Added to which, I think first time buyers can easily get caught up in the excitement and ignore any misgivings they may have.

I've only sold a couple, but the new owners went away with a bit of paper listing everything from hard feed, forage and turnout to the tack the horse went best in.

The trouble is when new owners get taken under the wing of the yard expert who persuades them to change everything.

I wonder if it would help if someone like the BHS could produce a standard form for sellers to fill in regarding food, turnout etc. One copy to the buyer, and the seller keep a copy. I don't know if something like that would help protect genuine sellers and buyers. ?‍

 

[Shilasdair]

Oh how I dislike it when people talk about "flashy competition types" in derogatory terms (Shildair's post) and suggest they are not suitable as RC horses and then in other threads people complain that their unflashy horses never get placed in competitions.

Outside now - fight!
There are definitely far too many horses bred for excessive movement (dressage) or jumping talent (SJ eventing) which would over-horse the average rider. Dressage movement and jumping talent are unfortunately completely separate from temperament - and often professionals have the skills and ability to deal with difficult horses. Amateurs lack the knowledge and motivation to do so.
I remember going to see a chestnut SJ bred stallion in Scotland with a view to using him for my mare - he ran at the door with bared teeth. If I showjumped professionally I'd deal with that - but as a leisure owner, no thanks.
And I had a GP dressage horse on loan - he was a sweet lad, but not the easiest ride.
So no, the reality is that competition horses are bred for talent, and trainability under saddle - not the same as good temperament.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I'm so pleased I'm out of the game these days. Having done backers, schoolers and dealing between 82 and end 2003 from small ponies to off the track TBs, I thought I'd seen the lot come through.....
I refuse to even go and look at anything with friends these days.
The last one I did was 6 yrs ago, she had seen video, loved it.... I saw it ridden by a pro as its owner wasn't well, after 5 mins I advised friend not to even think of getting on. V glad she took the advice as the next victim got carted off with blue lights...

From both sides it's pretty dire as the fast moving market cuts out folk who need time to revisit and make a decision.
The ones that have more ambition than talent are causing huge issues for long respected sellers too.

V sad to see and read of such escalation in poor horsemanship all round in many cases ?