Are there really that many mis-sold horses?

[SatansLittleHelper]

I've definitely "mis-bought" more horses than had "mis-sold" to me.
I Rode ALOT when I was younger and I admit, the older me took a while to realise that 1) I'm older than I was 2) I have chronic health issues now that impact my physical (and sometimes) mental ability to deal/cope with the sort of things my younger self would have laughed off 3) I weigh alot more than my younger self.
I'm a sucker for a sob story too ??‍?
I have been mis-sold at least one horse but my other mistakes were down to my own fault ???

 

[eahotson]

Outside now - fight!
There are definitely far too many horses bred for excessive movement (dressage) or jumping talent (SJ eventing) which would over-horse the average rider. Dressage movement and jumping talent are unfortunately completely separate from temperament - and often professionals have the skills and ability to deal with difficult horses. Amateurs lack the knowledge and motivation to do so.
I remember going to see a chestnut SJ bred stallion in Scotland with a view to using him for my mare - he ran at the door with bared teeth. If I showjumped professionally I'd deal with that - but as a leisure owner, no thanks.
And I had a GP dressage horse on loan - he was a sweet lad, but not the easiest ride.
So no, the reality is that competition horses are bred for talent, and trainability under saddle - not the same as good temperament.

I read an article a few years ago by someone who deals in warmbloods.She said that the main problem is that they are bred on an industrial scale.A few are very talented and end up in professional homes.A lot though are not quite talented enough for a top professional but a bit too quirky even for a reasonable competent/confident amateur.

 

[shortstuff99]

I have known a couple of truly missold horses where medical issues were hidden (medicated back not disclosed etc).

I also think a lot of this is lack of training. I have trained my horses to be confident in new situations, my cobs would easily go to a new home and behave from day 1. I do have 1 that would struggle with a new home and so she will never, ever be sold (not that I sell anyway ?).

Now that horses have to sell quickly to make money, no one is putting effort in to creating a solid foundation leading to nervous, unsure horses.

 

[spacefaer]

Back in the day, we've had some spectacularly lovely horses we've bought from people who shouldn't have owned them. Nice people, but lacking sufficient knowledge to ride or look after a horse without knowledgeable supervision.

One we bought turned into a great hunter but the girl we bought him from was struggling to reach to put his bridle on (he was 17.2hh and she was 5'4) He'd raise his head and she'd put his tack away, claiming he didn't want to be ridden that day (to be fair, she was probably right!) . She never took him out of the tiny arena as the hacking was non existent from the edge of town yard.
Nothing wrong with him that regular, consistent handling and hacking didn't fix.

 

[Upthecreek]

Both horses I own now could be sold and I am confident they would both settle quickly in a new home with no major behavioural changes IF sold to the right type of handler/rider and kept in a similar routine and set up to the one they are used to.

I cannot hand on heart say that they would be absolutely fine in any environment with any type of rider. How would I know? I’ve owned these horses for years. Horses sold by dealers will be known to them for a matter of weeks. They can give their opinion on the suitability of the horse for the experience and riding ability of the prospective new owner and how it will be kept, but they will not know the horse well enough to be able to predict how it will react in any given situation. They should be honest about this rather than giving the prospective buyer the answers they want to hear. But obviously they are in business to sell horses. Equally buyers need to educate themselves better and understand that there will most likely be some difficulties and challenges in the first few months of ownership that could not have been predicted by the seller or failed to be spotted at the vetting etc.

 

[milliepops]

Both horses I own now could be sold and I am confident they would both settle quickly in a new home with no major behavioural changes IF sold to the right type of handler/rider and kept in a similar routine and set up to the one they are used to.
.

and that's what makes it tricky. because it seems few people are able to really bend what they have to fit a horse. If you're at livery for example, you get what you get, pretty much. I have a really quirky horse and i've had to be very mindful of her preferences when finding a livery yard, if she went to a one-size-fits-all yard then i can imagine the wheels coming off pretty fast. Part of the reason i decided I'd have to keep her... that was never the plan but i figured that with the understanding of her foibles, i was able to bring out the best in her and not many other people would see the appeal of her, enough to make the compromises she needs.

 

[Flame_]

IME, most people expect 12 months of ups and downs and the input of professional help. AFAIC, mis-sold horses are the ones with a big challenging problem, be it behavior, health or soundness that presents itself quickly and doesn't go away when vet/ trainer comes along and says "ah this horse needs putting in the field/ re-shoeing/ it's bit on the right way up, etc."

Said big, challenging problem will have been the reason it was sold and it might not have been investigated or understood, but again AFAIC, the seller was never unaware of it.

 

[milliepops]

As someone with a horse that I do need to sell this thread is just filling me with dread! I haven't sold a horse since i was a teenager. I have kept everything I've had ever since then (except one loan that went back to owner).

I do think things were different then. My second pony turned out to be a bit much for me but we just moved somewhere that i could get help and did my best to upskill. The thought of my young horse boomeranging back to me because someone mis-bought is a horrible one, I am sure MOST people want to sell their horses to the right person because quite frankly, aside from wanting the best for the horse, who wants the problem of dealing with someone who is unhappy afterwards?

 

[SEL]

I wonder if there's so many "mis-selling" stories around because people have been buying unseen. (covid, hot market??)

If you haven't seen the horse or sat on it then the chances of it being exactly what you want are pretty remote

(Says the lady nervously awaiting a new horse to turn up!!)

 

[oldie48]

Outside now - fight!
There are definitely far too many horses bred for excessive movement (dressage) or jumping talent (SJ eventing) which would over-horse the average rider. Dressage movement and jumping talent are unfortunately completely separate from temperament - and often professionals have the skills and ability to deal with difficult horses. Amateurs lack the knowledge and motivation to do so.
I remember going to see a chestnut SJ bred stallion in Scotland with a view to using him for my mare - he ran at the door with bared teeth. If I showjumped professionally I'd deal with that - but as a leisure owner, no thanks.
And I had a GP dressage horse on loan - he was a sweet lad, but not the easiest ride.
So no, the reality is that competition horses are bred for talent, and trainability under saddle - not the same as good temperament.

.
Ha I'd have to fight dirty as I'm too old and decrepit to fight fair! My point though is that if we consider temperament we wouldn't buy the horse that comes at us with barred teeth and we would leave the pros to deal with the sharp reactive ones that are unsuitable for a leisure/pleasure rider. Actually I do disagree to some extent that too many horses are being bred for talent and movement IME too many are bred for the wrong reasons out of mares that shouldn't be used for breeding and too few people have the skill to produce young horses well, whatever their breeding or potential job. How lucky were you to have a GP dressage horse on loan? Actually, although I've never had the opportunity to ride at that level, I've watched a lot of good horses being trained at the higher levels and their trainability always seems more important than the extravagance of their movement. Certainly at the higher levels that huge extended trot so beloved by some (not me) is far less important than the ability to collect and having a brain that doesn't get to scrambled by tempis and difficult transitions that come thick and fast. They do all need plenty of energy though! Friends, who are decent amateur riders, have bought youngsters from some well known dressage studs and have been advised against buying something that is too sharp. I get the impression that many breeders want their young horses to be with suitable riders as there's nothing to be gained by earning a reputation for producing horses that can only be ridden by top riders.

 

[Upthecreek]

As someone with a horse that I do need to sell this thread is just filling me with dread! I haven't sold a horse since i was a teenager. I have kept everything I've had ever since then (except one loan that went back to owner).

I do think things were different then. My second pony turned out to be a bit much for me but we just moved somewhere that i could get help and did my best to upskill. The thought of my young horse boomeranging back to me because someone mis-bought is a horrible one, I am sure MOST people want to sell their horses to the right person because quite frankly, aside from wanting the best for the horse, who wants the problem of dealing with someone who is unhappy afterwards?

Selling horses (for private sellers) is as much of a minefield as buying them these days. I’m afraid I would ask as many questions of prospective purchasers as they would ask about the horse. I’d need to know all about their experience, how the horse would be kept and what they’d want to do with it before I’d agree to a viewing. Otherwise they’d be wasting my time and theirs because I’d want to do everything I could to ensure they were a good match. If you’re a responsible and genuine owner selling a much loved horse, finding out the new owner is having problems with it, particularly if you aren’t in a position to take it back, is very upsetting and stressful. Sellers need to do their homework on buyers to protect themselves.

At my current yard there have been a few new arrivals recently for kids coming off ponies that now need a horse, which can be tricky. Most are over-horsed, but will work out okay as they have access to support, lessons and experienced riders to school the horses a couple times a week. On a small private yard or kept at home without access to the support and facilities the wheels would fall off extremely quickly. The kids would lose confidence, the horses would be labelled dangerous and the seller would be accused of mis-selling.

 

[scruffyponies]

For me all of this boils down to far too many people buying a horse like they buy a car. They think the controls are all the same, so they can drive anything, and that the poor thing is a machine, not a sensitive sentient animal.

Always wise to remember the old Irish saying 'a horse is always either improving or disimproving.'
If you can't improve a horse don't buy it.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

For me all of this boils down to far too many people buying a horse like they buy a car. They think the controls are all the same, so they can drive anything, and that the poor thing is a machine, not a sensitive sentient animal.

Always wise to remember the old Irish saying 'a horse is always either improving or disimproving.'
If you can't improve a horse don't buy it.

Agreed, as I said upthread, often the riders talent is vastly outdone by their ambition....

 

[The Irish Draft 2022]

I now people who have lied about horses issues when selling a horse like a horse that have known issues like bolting rearing and bucking . Sold as suitable for a novice rider because they want big money . I think Covid has made the problem worse. I also think there is lack of novice safe horses on the market and nobody is breeding them anymore . I think it’s probably leading people into buying unsuitable horses that don’t Match there riding ability.

 

[TPO]

For me all of this boils down to far too many people buying a horse like they buy a car. They think the controls are all the same, so they can drive anything, and that the poor thing is a machine, not a sensitive sentient animal.

Always wise to remember the old Irish saying 'a horse is always either improving or disimproving.'
If you can't improve a horse don't buy it.

You joke but I personally know someone who went yo buy a horse exactly as you'd buy a car.

She wore her best clothes and high heels as that what she wore to garages.

She didn't expect to try the horse and thought you just looked then bought ?

Needless to say she spent the subsequent years as a scared, nervous rider who was throughly walked over by the cob ?

Edited to correct autocorrect ?

 

[little_critter]

You joke but I personally know someone who went yo buy a horse exactly as you'd buy a car.

She wore her best clothes and high heels as that what what wore to garages.

She didn't expect to try the horse and thought you just looked then bought ?

Needless to say she spent the subsequent years as a scared, nervous rider who was throughly walked over by the cob ?

I think I’m buying cars wrong. Best clothes & high heels?

 

[poiuytrewq]

The definition of missold to me would be that the seller knew and didn't declare, that the horse was unsound or had a high risk of becoming unsound, had a temperament/behaviour problem that would show up in a different environment or at a different time of year, or was drugged or deliberately dehydrated.

Almost anything else is misbought. So most claims of misselling are actually misbuying or a failure to allow a new horse long enough to settle in a new home.
.

The time to settle I think is usually the key. My old horse was the quietest loveliest horse but when we moved house was really difficult. I had had him years and his routine even was much the same but the new home really threw him.

 

[milliepops]

I think I’m buying cars wrong. Best clothes & high heels?

better tell OH he needs to rethink his outfit when mine goes bang lolol

 

[TPO]

She always had fancy cars so I'm guessing high end garages because she mentioned champagne. That's not like any car buying experience I've had!

 

[Flame_]

Going back a long time to when I was about 18, I bought a lovely natured mare from a dealer. Now it wouldn't be unreasonable to say I was pretty novicey but had the little fantasy in my tiny mind that maybe I could, in fact, be the next Mary King now I was going on to horses.

However novicey I ever might have been, one of the questions I'd always have asked over the phone in the first place is "any history of health problems or lameness?"
I went, viewed, vetted and bought the mare so the answer must have been "no", or at least "nothing significant".
As she was on the box and we were about to get in and leave dealer said quietly to me away from my Mum, "if you work it hard, don't give it a day off the next day or it will tye up".
She did, lots, becoming more damaged each time until she was uninsurable for treatment for it and I still hadn't worked out how to stop it. She was pts a couple of years later.
That was a few lessons worth learning and that mare deserved a home like all other horses, but that bloke was still a b'stard who knew he was selling me a likely nightmare.

 

[LEC]

I moved all my horses last year to a new yard. They all moved together and they were nuts for 4 months despite nothing else changing except for location. Same programme of work etc

 

[TotalMadgeness]

I often think any human who wants to own a horse has to pass exams and hold a licence. Like an HGV driver!

 

[ihatework]

For a while I’d have a RC type project to bring on and sell.

Far to scared now to do that. The volume of numpties that have no clue on how to train or manage a horse, and who will plaster your name across the Internet on dodgy dealer sites. No thank you very much.

 

[Annagain]

Sometimes, nobody has mis-sold or mis-bought, it just doesn't work out. I'm in that position now. Charlie is exactly as described and exactly what I wanted on paper. I'm not over horsed and we've not really had any problems (piggate aside) but we've never clicked so after 18 months of trying I've decided to sell. Not what I planned and I'm not happy about it but it's best for both of us. Meanwhile, my friend has bought one almost identical on paper (in terms of experience and temperament) and I've ridden him a few times and he's put a real smile on my face. I couldn't even tell you why I feel good on Oscar and not on Charlie but as another friend said, "you wouldn't marry every man you date."

 

[RachelFerd]

Outside now - fight!
There are definitely far too many horses bred for excessive movement (dressage) or jumping talent (SJ eventing) which would over-horse the average rider. Dressage movement and jumping talent are unfortunately completely separate from temperament - and often professionals have the skills and ability to deal with difficult horses. Amateurs lack the knowledge and motivation to do so.
I remember going to see a chestnut SJ bred stallion in Scotland with a view to using him for my mare - he ran at the door with bared teeth. If I showjumped professionally I'd deal with that - but as a leisure owner, no thanks.
And I had a GP dressage horse on loan - he was a sweet lad, but not the easiest ride.
So no, the reality is that competition horses are bred for talent, and trainability under saddle - not the same as good temperament.

I'm with Oldie48 on this one - I've seen just as many cobs and native partbreds be seriously difficult to deal with as I have smart competition horses. Sure, there are certain lines which are probably best avoided.... but I've yet to meet a WelshxTB who isn't completely off their rockers... and I've seen SO MANY cobs of unknown breeding with really tricky temperaments in ill equipped homes with novice riders... if anything, I'd caution against cobs of unknown heritage as being the most unpredictable of the lot!

And as I look at my two - I've got a full TB and an eventing bred (Welton lines) 80% TB - and they've both got absolutely WONDERFUL temperaments, and are trainable, and both (in the right circumstances) would be fairly novice safe. The TB is deliberately managed to keep him sharp as he's lazy by nature.

Back to the main topic though. There's definitely plenty of both - mis-sold and mis-bought. I probably see more of the latter truth be told - I just don't think people realise that in ownership they have signed up to be the full-time psychiatrist and personal trainer to a half tonne of horse. It's a big job.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I was snorting at the Welsh x Tb cross being touted as being a suitable cross to breed for the RC market, too ?.

I've had two. Combines the welsh panic button with the tb athleticism. They can be lovely horses, but they are not for the faint hearted. I've had two. I'm not having a third!

 

[hairycob]

A few years ago I was pootling around the yard when another livery was showing her cob to a prospective buyer. Prospective buyer asked if the horse had ever seen the vet for anything other than routine jabs. "Oh no, never" said seller. Her face was thunder when another livery said "except for laminitis" (which was true).

 

[RachelFerd]

I was snorting at the Welsh x Tb cross being touted as being a suitable cross to breed for the RC market, too ?.

I've had two. Combines the welsh panic button with the tb athleticism. They can be lovely horses, but they are not for the faint hearted. I've had two. I'm not having a third!

Oh, I love them - but they tend to be hot, hot, hot!!

 

[ihatework]

I was snorting at the Welsh x Tb cross being touted as being a suitable cross to breed for the RC market, too ?.

I've had two. Combines the welsh panic button with the tb athleticism. They can be lovely horses, but they are not for the faint hearted. I've had two. I'm not having a third!

I adore this cross.
But it isn’t always one that I’d want to sell to a stranger.
My big fella was an utter legend, but I was cautious he didn’t go to a muppet

 

[Fransurrey]

A friend of mine sold a pony to what appeared to be an experienced home, but was completely honest about the pony (I was there!) and included the option to help them if they got stuck. They were warned he took time to settle, to give it a couple of weeks before hacking alone and so on. The new owners took the pony out by himself the day after they took him home. Apparently that went fine, but it went downhill from there. We never did get to the bottom of it as they sold him on in two weeks, claiming he was a bolter (to the friend). Luckily the third owner was savvy and was surprised to learn he was a 'bolter' as they didn't have any problems with him. It got very nasty between the friend and the people she sold to, though. They lied about quite a lot, even the age and experience of the girl who would be riding him (said she was 16 and she was 14, and that she'd owned PC ponies, when she'd just ridden friends ponies here and there). All very odd and unnecessary.