Backing the young horse - NOT the MR way!!

I agree there is a difference between " nervous but experienced" and " nervous but novice"

I admit to getting on anything a few years ago, since having the children and just riding my own horses I know I would be a little nervous riding a newly backed horse i was going to view.
 
patterdale said:
Luci - while im not necessarily disagreeing with you, I have started many, many young horses and one thing that you find is that the vast majority are very quiet to start with. It's 6 months down the line when they start to find their feet a bit that things start to go wrong, and you really do need, IMO, to be an experienced confident rider to have a young horse.
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Thaty is certainly true of MANY youngsters - especially TB x or WBs. But NOT with IDs who have been bred for temperament and properly raised from day 1, before being VERY thoroughly backed and hacked!

I was not surprised when I heard from someone who bought a full brother to the grey mare as a yearling. When he was nearly 4, he was sent to a professional trainer in the SW who RAVED about how easy he was - and who was sing HIM as the 'sensible escort' for other youngsters within a few weeks.

As long as the rider is basically competent - and is going to have help bringing them on - we have never had a problem with a youngster going wrong 6-12 months down the line. In some ways it's a better start for them - as they're not rushed as much as they might be with a VERY confident rider!
 
A lovely example of a good horse and good trainer! As i'm sure others have said, this is how it SHOULD be done.
I dont want to enter into any debates, but I have previously worked at a large equestrian centre where both and PP have put on demos, and quite frankly, seeing what goes on behind the scenes to these 'shows' is enough to put me off them, nevermind the fact that I would prefer to class myself in the 'common sense' brigade and ignore their hype and marketing.
Again, lovely job JanetGeorge :-)
 
Nervous or novice, a sale is a sale.

No matter how many times they try a horse out, there is always problems a few weeks months down the line.

I agree with Patterdale you need experience with green horses.

When we were breeding, backing and selling I ended up refusing to sell to most who turned up, so we just stopped doing it.
 
millsandboon said:
What lovely bird song in the video :)
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Drivbes me mad - the bu**ers never stop!!:D And we WON'T mention the mating pigeons who plunge down into the manege just as we get on a backer for the first time! They're worse than the ruddy Air Force (we're on the Cosford flight path so get LOTS of low-flying planes of all sorts!)

Nervous or novice, a sale is a sale.

No matter how many times they try a horse out, there is always problems a few weeks months down the line.

I agree with Patterdale you need experience with green horses.
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I often decline a sale if I think the horse and rider are unsuited - I want my babies to go to the RIGHT home - and stay there. But you are TOTALLY wrong about 'always problems a few weeks/months down the line'! We have the odd one who is unsettled in a new home in the first week - but I talk buyers through how to deal with that! And I am still in touch with owners who have my horses - 3 - 4 years down the line - and they've had no problems worth mentioning!

How on EARTH does someone get experience with green horses if they never have one???? I've sold a number of babies to people who have never brought on a baby before. I ensure they are sensible enough to get help, to contact me if they run into a problem or are not sure of the next step. And they learn! Several of my babies who have gone to people who have never brought on a young horse before are now winning and placing at Affiliated Dressage - 12 months later!! Hardly a problem!
 
yes what's a buck stop, sounds frightfull, i have no respect for anyone who gets on baby horse that quick, i thought the whole idea of the preparation phase was to start to develop the right muscles and achieve a little fitness, so you could ride away the newly backed horse almost as if it knows what its doing, well that's my experience.

i've taken to longreining in headcollar, in an enclosed space, so they can make their baby fumbles without the bit, and for a long time only backed at 4 years, the balance is better, so lunging is easier and the whole thing falls into place.
 
eahotson said:
I ABSOLUTELY agree that NH is not the only way.Again it depends on your experiences.The TRADITIONAL way a few years ago was presented to me as no nonsense wack it if it doesn't behave.You get posters on here who write, I am no bunny hugger not me I have a stick and I know how to use it.So, like a lot ofpeople I was looking for kinder ways.I realize now that what was presented to me as traditional was just violent and ignorant horsemanship not traditional horsemanship.I think that there has always been educated and uneducated horsemanship.Elizabeth 1 had a horsemaster who wrote a book apparently, about horsemanship,which lasted until the early 19th century which talked much about kindness and gentleness in training horses.Of course that would only have been available to peopl ewho could afford it and could read.Not so many then.
I was interested in NH but not so much now.A lot seems a bit cultish and personality led.The best person with horses I have ever met is a guy called John Wilmott.Hugely experienced, very kind.The nearest thing I have ever found to a horse whisperer.Although he would deny that very firmly.No carrot sticks or any other fancy equipment.
A lot of novices end up in the natural horsemanship camp because its very hard to find really GOOD proffessional help and they struggle.I did for a long time but now have a fabulous instructor who has helped me so much and I am now in a happy place but I look around me and despair sometimes.
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I am sorry that you only found slap-happy professionals on your journey.

I don't know why they exist. Actually maybe I do know why. There was a time when German scholars were very popular in Britain. The barbaric methods still exist today. You won't need to look far to see it in action and actually exalted as gospel horse training. There was a also a famous french trainer whose methods were far from compassionate... and these were considered "classical".

A book that helped me understand the chronology of horse training evolve was "The Royal Horse of Europe". It does not include American methodology (there are a few Americans who I like actually) but a lot of it shows you what it is based upon. Some of these men were responsible for training THOUSANDS of horses for battle - dressage.

Much of the trainers I have met seem to follow the classical "masters". They have all shown compassion and fair discipline. None more than what a mare would use to discipline her foal. It makes sense. Poking a horse repeatedly makes no sense to me when one poke would suffice.

You could firmly put me in the classical camp - the kind one may I add. I am here with a tent, a kettle boiling on a fire so do join me for a cuppa and some marshmallows :)
 
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JanetGeorge said:
A PROPERLY brought up and started youngster is often more suitable than the vast majority of older horses - as long as the rider is competent and has good back-up!
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I completely 100% agree with this, my yearling stands better tied up, loads better in a trailer/lorry and stands to get her feet trimmed than many ''older'' horses on our yard (one of them being my other horse whos 15!)!

JG I also wish you were eh about 6 hours closer to me as in 3 years time a set of eyes or another riders bottom would just go down a treat as the way you have described is pretty much the route I am going to go down!

As for the MR/Oarelli discussion on this thread I am just going to keep my tuppence to myself!
 
Don't take this the wrong way because I normally enjoy reading your posts Janet but, let's be honest, if Kelly Marks had come on here with a similar post to demonstrate that her way is better than for example Endospink, there would have been outrage and accusations of advertising. Personally I'm not bothered if people post in this vein about what they do, it's all interesting to me and a lot of "advertising" threads backfire on the originator, but this does feel a bit unfair.

(There, I've said what others have been hinting at. I'll now go and hide under a stone).
 
Tinypony said:
Don't take this the wrong way because I normally enjoy reading your posts Janet but, let's be honest, if Kelly Marks had come on here with a similar post to demonstrate that her way is better than for example Endospink, there would have been outrage and accusations of advertising. Personally I'm not bothered if people post in this vein about what they do, it's all interesting to me and a lot of "advertising" threads backfire on the originator, but this does feel a bit unfair.

(There, I've said what others have been hinting at. I'll now go and hide under a stone).
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:D I'm surprised someone hasn't pushed the button yet! But I assure you it was NOT intended as an advertising post - frankly, the LAST thing I need is more outside horses to back as we're booked-up for the next 4 months and by then it will be time for me to start on a field FULL of my own 3 year olds (once I've got the last two 4 year olds started and finished!!) Just as an example of how nicely a youngster can go if she's backed - given TIME - and no buck-stop or hype!
 
hey guys, should i watch the video. I have a young mare into be ridden atm, should i do it my way or mr way. i want my friend to be able to sell her, so whats the story!!!!
 
God, I'm probably going to be torn to shreds for this comment, and rest assured I'm not making it lightly, but as you back horses for a living, employ staff and therefore have some responsibility for their safety, and are promoting this video as a good example of backing then why is the handler not wearing gloves and why is the jockey in Wellies?

I'm all for personal choice, don't get me wrong there, and I fully agree with your approach to young horses. But in the context with which the video has been released/displayed I feel it would be prudent to highlight to less experienced people the safety aspect of correct footwear etc
 
I think it would be incredibly sad if this thread was deemed advertising. Without people that get up and go to work with youngsters being able to actually speak about what they do there's a whole chunk of equine life unable to be discussed.

My initial response to this thread was so tongue in cheek I think it didn't make clear what I actually wanted to say. Breaking isn't about speed, there's no use for speed to the horse, there's less time with speed for a horse to think, there's less opportunity with speed for the horse to learn, there's less time with speed to address issues that don't always show in day one. Apart from squashing the process into a showman demo space of time I can see no reason why it ever arose. Frankly if someone was to try and demo the long process no-one would pay to see a minimum of 6 weeks worth and if anyone did a huge chunk would be bored to death by it - it's not a merchandisable process. Of people that turn up supposedly keen to learn and with oodles of horse experience a significant chunk can't be bothered to pay attention long enough to something so effective but unflashy.

In regard to experience and owning youngsters, there's no absolute about it. As long as someone has simple and sound riding skill, in my view, attitude always trumps experience and even talent. As someone who's seen a stream of riders on umpteen different horses I frequently switched off while a person trawled out what they saw as amazing experience and waited to see what they did, both in response to horses and in regard to their own self discipline to learn. The sad reality is that for many they can and do purchase experience, or their parents purchased it for them and frankly more than a few are a complete pain in the rump! On the other hand, someone with a earnest desire to keep learning, maybe nervous, maybe started as an adult, but who is not looking to pre madonna it on their new purchase, just to take things step by step; they, that kind, on a genuine and rightly schooled young horse can thrive. Older horses are only as good as their life before allows them to be and can come with a catalog of baggage for more engrained than any youngster.

What's experience anyway? As years roll by 5 years starts to look like a novice, then 10, then 20 gets questioned if it's not the right experience. Experience is worse than height in terms of what it describes, at least there is an 'average' height to which a person can say they are tall or short, there's no average experience, type and length are as varied as each individual. Where breaking is concerned my old gaffa used to say you need 20+ neds under your belt before you have begun, I had begun, in other words was nowhere and happy to be so because it's the learning that's the buzz of breaking.
 
tallyho! said:
I am sorry that you only found slap-happy professionals on your journey.

I don't know why they exist. Actually maybe I do know why. There was a time when German scholars were very popular in Britain. The barbaric methods still exist today. You won't need to look far to see it in action and actually exalted as gospel horse training. There was a also a famous french trainer whose methods were far from compassionate... and these were considered "classical".

A book that helped me understand the chronology of horse training evolve was "The Royal Horse of Europe". It does not include American methodology (there are a few Americans who I like actually) but a lot of it shows you what it is based upon. Some of these men were responsible for training THOUSANDS of horses for battle - dressage.

Much of the trainers I have met seem to follow the classical "masters". They have all shown compassion and fair discipline. None more than what a mare would use to discipline her foal. It makes sense. Poking a horse repeatedly makes no sense to me when one poke would suffice.

You could firmly put me in the classical camp - the kind one may I add. I am here with a tent, a kettle boiling on a fire so do join me for a cuppa and some marshmallows :)
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Love to join you Tallyho!
 
I agree that it would be a shame if this thread were to be deemed advertising. I'm pointing out what I consider to be an inconsistent approach. I didn't think that the infamous thread by Kelly was advertising either. As she is at the head of a very popular training organisatino in the UK (whatever people think of her approach) she hardly needs to tout her business on here. Posting "Why not go to XX, he's brilliant" at regular intervals, when XX is your husband is a bit more dodgy maybe?
Popeyesno1fan - if you're serious then you either need to use an approach that you are confident with, or find a trainer that you trust.
 
Sorry just a quickie, otherwise i'll be late for school run. and not wanting to sound a numpty but what is MR?

thanks, will read through later :)
 
For years Monty Roberts has been coming over every spring and starting every single one of the Queens horses.

They look steady and happy enough on parades to me.

I'm not disputing that your methods may work JG, but I don't think you should need to drag someone else's name down in an attempt to illustrate that.
 
Depends on personal viewpoints really, I hate to see threads pulled, but would also hate it if the floodgates to advertising opened on this forum.
As someone who has had some remedial work done on them by the Fat Controller, its just part of expressing your views, valid or not.
No doubt some anti Kelly Marks person complained, and having read Janet George's latest advertising campaign, I'm suprised someone from the Kelly camp hasn't returned the favour.
 
Doh! it came to me as I walked away: Monty Roberts ? that'll teach me to sneak a few mins on here before school... and i nearly forgot swimming kit. :-s
 
Pale Rider said:
Agree with Patterdale on that one, Janet George is always having a go at MR and PP, you never hear them say a bad word about her, lol.
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I personally find MR and PP to be quite different in their methods. MR seems to do what he does based on how horses treat each other in the wild (ie. join-up for example, although I know there was a thread the other day slagging this off). PP however is totally different, IMO he is a business man who has made a lot of money out of telling nervous or inexperienced people that if they dont follow his methods then they're can never understand a horse.

With regard to this post - the horse looks great and I'm sure has a super future. But I dont think its ever a good idea for a novice person to buy a youngster, yes some end up happy stories I'm sure but the vast majority don't and why take that risk. I've sold a few young ponies who I've backed and sold quite quickly afterwards - I've turned people away because their kids are just too novicey.
 
I agree PR.

I've had an infraction for far, far less than this. 9 pages now of blatant advertising, AND badmouthing someone else in the process....

And no, I'm not a button pusher.
But I'm amazed that no one else has been yet....
 
ihatework said:
God, I'm probably going to be torn to shreds for this comment, and rest assured I'm not making it lightly, but as you back horses for a living, employ staff and therefore have some responsibility for their safety, and are promoting this video as a good example of backing then why is the handler not wearing gloves and why is the jockey in Wellies?
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I'm a stickler for safety on the things that count. Rider is actually in someone else's Muck boots - which are safe to ride in - and are a size too big - because she filled her boots with mud that morning going through a very mucky gateway.:rolleyes: And Phil rarely wears gloves unless the horse is VERY wild - even then he prefers not too because he says he can't grip in them if a horse takes off. (And he's held some very strong horses without ropeburn - not least because we use cushioned lunge lines rather than the nasty nylon hand slicers.) On gloves it's choice - hats and sensible handling are compulsory!
 
RuthM said:
I think it would be incredibly sad if this thread was deemed advertising. Without people that get up and go to work with youngsters being able to actually speak about what they do there's a whole chunk of equine life unable to be discussed.
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Exactly RuthM - almost every day there are threads from people wanting to back their own horse and asking hows and whys! A video gives SOME idea of just one stage - and it's very boring when there's no chasing around a round pen or wild bucking. Hopefully a few people will have got some ideas from this one of simple things which a lot of people haven't thought of yet - the use of the cavesson to help teach steering and stopping without risking damage to the horse's mouth, the use of the person on the ground to help teach 'forward' to the legs etc.

Agree with Patterdale on that one, Janet George is always having a go at MR and PP, you never hear them say a bad word about her, lol.
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Always???? Apart from the thread on the latest bit of 'research' I don't remember when I last bothered commenting on an MR thread - and the last Parelli thread I think I commented on was the Catwalk video! And - actually - MR and PP are CONSTANTLY saying bad words about me - and hundreds more trainers like me when they claim THEY are the only ones who care about kindness etc and that 'traditional' methods are bad!!

And - of course - they make it quite difficult to justify the 6-8 weeks it takes to do a decent job of backing a young horse when they promote methods that let them 'back' a young horse in a few hours (and of course these horses are 'sat on' - but are NOT ready for the owners to ride safely!)
 
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