CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Yep, AE.
I've applied the ten foot pole rule myself.
I've applied the ten foot pole rule myself.
Balance Through Movement Method - Celeste Lazaris
- Thread starter nikicb
- Start date
Peglo
Well-Known Member
“and now my new friend is dead”
What the actual duck!
thank you @Ambers Echo for sharing. I didn’t get that far in the COTH thread.
What the actual duck!
thank you @Ambers Echo for sharing. I didn’t get that far in the COTH thread.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
That is horrid. Mean-spirited, narcissistic, and perhaps one of the most horribly unprofessional things I have ever seen a so-called horse professional write, and that is saying something. There are a lot of crazy people out there claiming to be trainers or horse psychics or whatever. Poor horse owner.
Yuck.
nikicb
Well-Known Member
I haven't got that far in the COTH thread either yet - it's a long read, but I am glad now I haven't parted with my money even though my decision was nothing to do with that. Having been challenged by someone saying 'couldn't I have done more?' after my absolutely beloved mare was PTS as soon as she had her lymphoma diagnosis, and was basically dying in front of me anyway, no one ever has the right to challenge or criticise what we do in that sort of situation. I have seen it happen to friends as well when they have PTS horses with chronic conditions even though they seemed superficially healthy.
Palindrome
Well-Known Member
Did you see any evidence of her successful high level competing?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
That sort of comment is mean spirited and just totally unnecessary. Even if you think that you don't be so unkind as to say it.
nikicb
Well-Known Member
Were you responding to me about comments recieved by me and other friends? If so, I totally agree with you.
Taliesan
Well-Known Member
When I first looked into the BTMM I was put off by the cultish aspect to it.
I dislike those kinds of groups, and the people that lead them, because they just leave a bad taste in my mouth and I have no desire to get involved.
However, I cannot deny that the BTMM works. (For my horses anyway.) I decided that I needed to put my dislike of that kind of cult following to one side for the sake of my horses as, ultimately, I am doing this for their benefit.
I can acknowledge that I don't like aspects of the group, learn what I can from there and then put that information into practice with my boys.
That said, those comments she made about the person's horse being PTS after a clinic are unprofessional. I get that she is passionate about what she does and can only assume that her passion overflowed into making a remark that really should have been left unsaid.
I could be giving her the benefit of the doubt though as, from what I've experienced in the masterclass and Facebook group, I've never seen her say anything like that.
I dislike those kinds of groups, and the people that lead them, because they just leave a bad taste in my mouth and I have no desire to get involved.
However, I cannot deny that the BTMM works. (For my horses anyway.) I decided that I needed to put my dislike of that kind of cult following to one side for the sake of my horses as, ultimately, I am doing this for their benefit.
I can acknowledge that I don't like aspects of the group, learn what I can from there and then put that information into practice with my boys.
That said, those comments she made about the person's horse being PTS after a clinic are unprofessional. I get that she is passionate about what she does and can only assume that her passion overflowed into making a remark that really should have been left unsaid.
I could be giving her the benefit of the doubt though as, from what I've experienced in the masterclass and Facebook group, I've never seen her say anything like that.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
more celeste's comment but yes all under the same theme! Just that she should also be held to a higher professional standard.
nikicb
Well-Known Member
Totally agree.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Well i was considering looking into BTMM for Ludo's rehab but I won't touch someone who makes a comment like that with a bargepole.
The implication that the horse did not need to be PTS is obnoxious but I could probably get over it if it was for the benefit of my unsound horse.
The suggestion that someone put their horse to sleep through "indifference" is indefensible and I don't think I could risk going to someone who might say that about me.
But the claim that she could get a lame horse sound in one session is just arrogant beyond anything I can work with.
.
Palindrome
Well-Known Member
So, does anyone who has access to the videos has seen the "nerve release" work? People on COTH are saying it's hurting horses. This is doubly concerning if she has no qualifications.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I've PM'd with people who have been to her clinics and it sounds to me like some of the Masterson work. I guess any bodywork could hurt if it's done incorrectly but until I read the COTH thread I'd only heard good things about her actual clinics.
stangs
Well-Known Member
To be fair, I think all small horsemanship communities are a bit cultish; the dedication of the followers is what enables them to survive. But these small communities are usually off the beaten track. You don't find them unless you're looking for similar types of horsemanship, which minimises the amount of vitriol they get from the more mainstream lines of horsemanship (traditional horsemanship and NH-based approaches). BTMM, however, has been pushed into the mainstream's consciousness for everyone to judge. It's in an awkward niche where it's labelled as scientific whilst also having a spiritual marketing side to it which puts traditional folk off. And there's really not any science behind it; God knows citing articles about nerve impingement in horses doesn't prove that your nerve release techniques work. (Also the irony of calling them nerve release techniques when nerve release techniques in humans usually involve surgery? Makes me wonder how exactly they work).
Plus, small horsemanship communities usually have a lot of free content out there, enough to convince the layman, who does not have $150 lying around, either that the paid course is worth it, or to stick around the community as a freebie follower. Me personally, I like to see the 'cult leader' interacting with horses when I become interested in a community. Videos help you discern whether the content available on podcasts or Facebook posts, is real or just words. BTMM, however, is the only 'small' community I can think of with no YouTube content. Even the astrology-based horsemanship community (yes, really) I dabbled in a while back had more videos of interaction with horses than BTMM - and they didn't even teach any hands-on stuff.
I appreciate that not everyone wants to make or be involved with online content, but given that BTMM is 90% online content anyway... Just a video of one of the pillars would probably convince more people to sign up (or at least shut up), and I don't think there's any way a video showing how to lower a horse's head at halt could possibly be misinterpreted.
Plus, small horsemanship communities usually have a lot of free content out there, enough to convince the layman, who does not have $150 lying around, either that the paid course is worth it, or to stick around the community as a freebie follower. Me personally, I like to see the 'cult leader' interacting with horses when I become interested in a community. Videos help you discern whether the content available on podcasts or Facebook posts, is real or just words. BTMM, however, is the only 'small' community I can think of with no YouTube content. Even the astrology-based horsemanship community (yes, really) I dabbled in a while back had more videos of interaction with horses than BTMM - and they didn't even teach any hands-on stuff.
I appreciate that not everyone wants to make or be involved with online content, but given that BTMM is 90% online content anyway... Just a video of one of the pillars would probably convince more people to sign up (or at least shut up), and I don't think there's any way a video showing how to lower a horse's head at halt could possibly be misinterpreted.
stangs
Well-Known Member
As an aside, "young woman talks science, that may or may not be legitimate, to mostly non-science folk, and earns lots of money as a result" gives me Elizabeth Holmes/Theranos energy.
(This is a joke. I mean no disrespect.)
(This is a joke. I mean no disrespect.)
FlyingCircus
Well-Known Member
I've been interested in learning more about this method...but not anymore. This is disgusting.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I could do both those things. I can definitely lower a horse's head at halt and I am sure I could work out some astrology-based horsemanship. "The moon is in Taurus. He wants to eat grass." Anyone want to pay me for these services? Anyone......Bueller......anyone??
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
And the 'Buy this fabulous thing! But you don't know what it is until you've handed over the money' is loot boxes
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I had not got very far into the COTH thread when I last posted. Once I found the time to read it all I could completely understand the level of emotion in this thread. Working in this industry has been one of the most challenging aspects of my entire life and this just about tops it off.
Those of us that care are always on the hunt for the best systems, the best people, the best education that can help our clients and their horses. It's only ever been about that for me and I've taken a small amount of abuse for this, and other decisions. You learn to grow a thick skin and let is wash over you otherwise you leave the industry, as a ton of people do (many friends). The people I know that have worked with her in person (I know a small handful) and who perhaps have not seen all this stuff have clearly found her amazing to work with. I have not been recommending her work on the basis of fresh air or how "insta-perfect" she is, and knew this put some people off.
But this is WAY too far, really horrible. The charge for the new course is just eye watering, the communications are beyond unprofessional, everything about this makes me feel sick (literally) and incredibly sad as the work is helping so many people, whatever is said about it.
Those of us that care are always on the hunt for the best systems, the best people, the best education that can help our clients and their horses. It's only ever been about that for me and I've taken a small amount of abuse for this, and other decisions. You learn to grow a thick skin and let is wash over you otherwise you leave the industry, as a ton of people do (many friends). The people I know that have worked with her in person (I know a small handful) and who perhaps have not seen all this stuff have clearly found her amazing to work with. I have not been recommending her work on the basis of fresh air or how "insta-perfect" she is, and knew this put some people off.
But this is WAY too far, really horrible. The charge for the new course is just eye watering, the communications are beyond unprofessional, everything about this makes me feel sick (literally) and incredibly sad as the work is helping so many people, whatever is said about it.
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Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Yes exactly this. She claims ro be a trauma-specialist, neuro-psychologist, licenced practitioner, whatever. (The details change but I don't care enough to unpick what she is/isn't) But basically she very definitely sets her stall out as a PROFESSIONAL. I actually am a trauma-specialist, psychologist and licenced practitioner. If I said anything like that about a client. (she came to see me, chose a different path and now look what terrible thing has happened), I'd be struck off for gross misconduct. Quite rightly. There are question marks over her credentials. I actually don't really care about qualifications. I care about the person's skills. But I do care about faking or exaggerating credentials for credibility. If anyone wants to know what mine are, they can look me up in about 30 seconds on any number of registers: BPS, HCPC etc. I am sure it's the the same in the US. It's not hard. So mysteriosuly hard to prove qualifcations (as in, 'Dr' Gillian McKeith) never ring true. But more than that, any professional signs up to a code of conduct. She violates what would be on any code, repeatedly: Over-stating claims, data protection, personal attacks, lack of transparency. etc.
So it's a hard no from me.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Beware the Guru.
Seems to sum this one up .
Seems to sum this one up .
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I find your posts interesting and informative and I am sure that there is huge value in the approaches. I had assumed that would not have seen that post. I feel that people who value their own reputations, need to steer clear of association with these sorts of behaviours but I agree it is sad when the messenger makes a valuable message toxic.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I wonder if I'm wrong if I predict future videos of clearly unhappy or unsound horse that have been "saved" by their owners signing up to BTMM.
Like all these packaged methods, there is a core of good stuff. It's such a shame when that gets lost in the rest.
SB I never doubted a minute that you've seen genuinely good stuff that really needs to be known about.
.
Like all these packaged methods, there is a core of good stuff. It's such a shame when that gets lost in the rest.
SB I never doubted a minute that you've seen genuinely good stuff that really needs to be known about.
.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Never ever trust anyone who says their way is the only way .
And ditch anyone immediately who turns nasty when people question them or take another approach.
And ditch anyone immediately who turns nasty when people question them or take another approach.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I said above that everyone I messaged who has been to an in person clinic (all aged cynical US horsewomen!) spoke well of her and the clinic. I agree the price for the new course is eye watering. One of my bodyworker friends had contemplated it as a distance course for this year's CPD but not at that price. But I guess if people will pay .....
My thoughts too. I am behind the paywall and there is good stuff there and some excellent professionals - but possibly ego & self promotion is now getting in the way. Which is a shame.
Reacher
Well-Known Member
Celeste’s videos imply that if you haven’t followed her methods your horse is likely to have issues such as nerve impingement, which is a good way of scaring an owner senseless so you need to pay for her nerve release work. ( I think you should be talking to a vet!)
Celeste’s implies that using the exercises given in various books / physio exercises etc will be ineffective or even injure your horse. The best thing to do therefore (imo) is to do the exercises under the 1-2-1 guidance of a (good) physio and instructor , who should tell you if the horse is engaging the wrong muscles (eg is hollow) rather than advice via posts from random people on Facebook.
I find it odd Celest can dismiss all the knowledge of all the professional trained physios and academics who have studied biomechanics in depth. Eg
@TPO mentioned Prof Hilary Clinton, which reminds me I have been thinking of buying her book - I assume with HC’s academic track record any exercises she recommends will safe / effective if performed correctly!
I am very glad this thread was started as it provides a balance of opinions from people who have joined the BTMM course - this balance was not provided before in posts highly recommending the course/ masterclass.
Edited due to typos
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sbloom
Well-Known Member
For a time I had thought it was $11k odd, the 3 amounts are 2 different ways to pay and a third option with more content/contact. Still not remotely cheap, probably comparable to some other courses available the other side of the pond, but not as eyewatering as I thought.
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
I'm glad that this thread happened, because I had been thinking of signing up to the Masterclass for a long time, but this discussion has certainly brought many red flags to light. So much has been going through my mind about all of this.
First of all, I think the main reason her work has gained so much attention is because it's been presented as a last resort for the desperate horse owner. E.g. horse is intermittently lame, owner thinks they will have to PTS, does pillar work and nerve release and over time the horse comes sound. Some of the before and after photos are quite drastic, like a horse badly over at the knee returning to a straight leg. These pictures make you think 'wow', because the difference is so huge. Lots of people have genuinely seen impressive changes in their horses following this method, which is perhaps why it has gained a cult following.
What is troubling me is something which many people on this thread keep pointing out - why all of the secrecy around the method? If it could really be helping that many horses, and if Celeste is truly in it to help horses, why not make it more accessible to the average horse owner? I'm not saying she she be giving everything away for free, she should absolutely be charging appropriately for her time and skill...but 4k for the nerve release course? I follow a lot of bodyworkers who have online courses you can buy (or in person sessions) but they also share free video content to give people an idea of what their work is all about.
Something else which confuses me if that she talks about contraindications - 'Something (such as a symptom or condition) that makes a particular treatment or procedure inadvisable' - as a reason why she 'refuses just to hand out her exercises' (quoted from her FB page)
But from what I can see, the nerve release course is open to anyone who can afford it? These are the requirements, copied from the website:
Required Prerequisites:
Enrollment in the BTMM Master Class
Proficient horse handling skills.
Access to a phone/camera
Access to horses to apply hands-on practice and case studies
Ability to access wifi/Zoom for remote 1-1 sessions working with horses
So from what I understand, someone with no understanding of horse anatomy or background in bodywork, is eligible to take this course if they can afford it? Yet on the other hand she is saying she won't hand out her exercises, implying that people could do damage if they are not experienced enough?
Maybe I'm being really nit-picky, but this is confusing the heck out of me.
On the flip side, you can buy a Masterson Method book on Amazon for £20 and Jim Masterson has loads of free how-to videos on Youtube.
First of all, I think the main reason her work has gained so much attention is because it's been presented as a last resort for the desperate horse owner. E.g. horse is intermittently lame, owner thinks they will have to PTS, does pillar work and nerve release and over time the horse comes sound. Some of the before and after photos are quite drastic, like a horse badly over at the knee returning to a straight leg. These pictures make you think 'wow', because the difference is so huge. Lots of people have genuinely seen impressive changes in their horses following this method, which is perhaps why it has gained a cult following.
What is troubling me is something which many people on this thread keep pointing out - why all of the secrecy around the method? If it could really be helping that many horses, and if Celeste is truly in it to help horses, why not make it more accessible to the average horse owner? I'm not saying she she be giving everything away for free, she should absolutely be charging appropriately for her time and skill...but 4k for the nerve release course? I follow a lot of bodyworkers who have online courses you can buy (or in person sessions) but they also share free video content to give people an idea of what their work is all about.
Something else which confuses me if that she talks about contraindications - 'Something (such as a symptom or condition) that makes a particular treatment or procedure inadvisable' - as a reason why she 'refuses just to hand out her exercises' (quoted from her FB page)
But from what I can see, the nerve release course is open to anyone who can afford it? These are the requirements, copied from the website:
Required Prerequisites:
Enrollment in the BTMM Master Class
Proficient horse handling skills.
Access to a phone/camera
Access to horses to apply hands-on practice and case studies
Ability to access wifi/Zoom for remote 1-1 sessions working with horses
So from what I understand, someone with no understanding of horse anatomy or background in bodywork, is eligible to take this course if they can afford it? Yet on the other hand she is saying she won't hand out her exercises, implying that people could do damage if they are not experienced enough?
Maybe I'm being really nit-picky, but this is confusing the heck out of me.
On the flip side, you can buy a Masterson Method book on Amazon for £20 and Jim Masterson has loads of free how-to videos on Youtube.
ownedbyaconnie
Well-Known Member
I came really close to paying for the Masterclass thing but was put off for reasons already mentioned here, mostly that I am not a visual learner. I need someone to show me, or if it is visual then I need really basic broken down steps with a logical path. Secondly I was confused by the mixed messages. You can do serious harm if not done properly, but all I'd heard about the materials is that they were vague. I was terrified of doing more harm than good so decided against it and stuck with my physio and lots and lots of walking (in hand and ridden).
I can't argue with trying to make a profit, but the comments about putting down a horse are just horrid.
I can't argue with trying to make a profit, but the comments about putting down a horse are just horrid.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
In other news, for $10 per month, you can sign up to Mark Rashid's online course.
And Warwick Schiller has a new book out. £20 for a hard copy or £8 on Kindle.
And Warwick Schiller has a new book out. £20 for a hard copy or £8 on Kindle.