barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.

[nutjob]

and big names such as GTL and Becks Nairn.

Aren't these simply people who respectively run a livery, and is a taxidermist by trade. They are not hoof care professionals, and, unless I've missed it, don't have any published peer reviewed research? Both don't welcome alternative viewpoints and GTL wasn't at all happy about an owner who posted about the problems her horse had there.

I don't know about anyone else but what I find most interesting is that this is such a fascinating example of a cult and it's followers.

I started being aware of these fb cults when I joined a PSSM group. I was a bit naive in thinking that there would be people openly sharing their knowledge, experiences and viewpoint as my own horse had some worrying issues. Unfortunately, it was heavily moderated by equisec followers so there was only one viewpoint allowed. It did give me some worrying insight into how easy it is to get sucked into the group think if everybody else says and believes the same thing.

 

[ClipClopCommander]

I can think of 25 years worth of case studies

Ok, that’s quite a few to think of off the top of your head, could you list us your top 5?

Learn other methods then you will be in a position to make an evaluation based on fact. ie your own actual opinion rather than just what HM tells you to think

An interesting assumption you make here when I’ve never even told you if I have it have not followed any other hoof care ‘methods’.

Can you give us an explanation as to why the HM method is preferable for laminitics over other methods? Why is leaving the toe long better than taking it back. What are it's advantages?

You have literally just told me to get acquainted with other hoof care ‘methods’ yet you’re not even acquainted with HM’s… why do you need me to tell you what the advantages are?

You think their case studies are tremendously successful simply because they tell you they are.

Oh no, you misread me, I don’t think their case studies are tremendously successful, they are. Are you in the Phoenix group?

HM posts what they want on their groups and her followers believe her. .

Well I think 10.6K owners, vets, farriers, hoof care pros, going up at a rapid pace couldn’t all be sucked in by one person could they? That’s rather disingenuous of you to assume all those people are that gullible.

It seems that on this entire thread there is no-one who is actually in their group or who can in fact talk about any of their rehabs in any depth other than moan about the way the foot looks and lever forces, which they’ve shown clearly don’t exist.

I see you turning your ire on me now, yet all I’m doing is trying to redress the balance.

 

[Hoofstudies]

Sorry I have been working non-stop for a few days so just now catching up.

It’s clear this discussion about HM has strong opinions about them, yet I’m not sure many, if any, have really studied them judging from the comments you’re making.

One thing that stands out is that no one here, including even yourself @Hoofstudies, has been able to provide any credible evidence to counter what HM is saying.

You say that many of you have extensive knowledge about hoof care, but I see no counter arguments, just horror at the aesthetics of their rehabbing feet. And that’s a glaring issue if you’re going to discuss them, because if you have no counter arguments, it just sounds like a classic thread of ‘bad-mouthing’ someone or something because it doesn’t align with your taught beliefs.

All this HM distraction is just tit for tat, and really needs to stop now don’t you think? @Hoofstudies, why not try to find out what HM are actually saying, because their case studies are tremendously successful, and I’m not sure you are fully aware of that.

If you truly believe their methods are flawed, as they said in their post about you, where are your case studies, X-rays, and rehabs to prove them wrong?

You can kind of see it from their perspective, there you are saying they are layman etc yet you have nothing to back that up?

That would surely be the best approach if it is bothering you that badly. Because their approach consistently produces good results from the many, many owners showcasing them in their Phoenix group for all to see.

Right now, HM and GTL are presenting the evidence - success stories, X-rays, and real-world cases - and it’s hard to argue with that unless you can show something equally compelling.

The biomechanics of the hoof aren’t about opinion are they? They’re grounded in biology and physics. I am a scientist, a practicing biochemist as was, and biology doesn’t behave the way we often expect it to.

It seems what bothers most of you is the appearance of their rehabbing feet, which ultimately are short lived. The alternative is as they say to ‘toe-chop’ and when you’ve seen the countless hideous stories flooding into their Phoenix group of the damage to the coffin bone and the subsequent suffering, its enough to stop one taking the toe off ever again.

Surely it’s not just about the appearance of the hoof; it’s about how the forces move through it and how the horse’s body responds.

I’m just an onlooker, feeling like a bit of balance needs to be made here, but knowing the sentiment in this thread, it’s likely falling on deaf ears.

Instead of focusing on personal grievances or what this group or that group said, maybe it’s time to shift the discussion to actual evidence. If you believe HM is wrong, the best way to prove it is with credible data, not comments or opinions. Right now, this constant back-and-forth seems more about egos than horses.

If we really care about improving hoof health, and frankly it is rather shocking out there, then we need to let the evidence speak for itself and focus on finding solutions rather than arguing over methods. Right now, HM most definitely do seem to be winning that race, and are definitely not going away anytime soon judging from what is going on and the support they have from their Phoenix group, and big names such as GTL and Becks Nairn.

Big names? .
Not in my professional world. What are their professional qualifications?

In my world credibility and qualifications counts.

I will not be silenced on my page, and will continue to share my thoughts, dissection findings, trims, and whatever I decide to post. Shouting and telling lies about people just reinforces to me how hideous these people are.

I’ll just continue my own way.

You carry on yours.

But may I please share one thing- I did contact them via a third party. Suggesting I helped them if they truly wanted to get their method to be above all scrutiny. I offered to write the protocol for them so it was water tight. This is my profession. I asked to be let into the groups so I could understand better. I never begged. I never said I’d drip all others to be let in.
Why on earth would I do that?

I have the evidence. So I suggest you go and ask them if what I am saying is true?

I have every word.
Every word……

Ask them to share my apparent words with you. Or maybe I’m actually taking to the master???

I’m not full of ego that I can’t be wrong, and I many times have said I’m wrong and I am totally transparent.
But..
I have been full of anger that my words are being twisted to disgusting lies.

I’m really angry lies are being published about me and the care of 2 of the horses I wanted to help.

You can prod all you like and ask for the X-rays etc but you know they don’t exist because you know I’m not a trimmer by profession.

In the end they will break through and the horses lives will be saved. Or in the end they just became one of the previous trim methods that in time was dropped.

We shall see.

I hope they break through. I prefer horses to be saved. I’d love to see this but I am not happy at the shouting and belittling of vets and farriers.

If their stuff works, then just get in with it.
No need to keep trying to proove it.

No need at all.
Word of mouth worth make them succeed.

He said she said. - enough.
Stop prodding me.

Yiu have the final word. I dint need or want it. But my final word ks

I forgive Lindsay Setchell for her lies.

It’s over.

 

[Hoofstudies]

thank you for your reply.

I hope that you won't leave this thread. I don't think anyone is giving you heartache and I certainly hope they are not.

I totally understand what you are saying about the long toe and SHEAR is a very good word. I haven't thought of using that word.

What I really don't understand though is how on earth or even why HM dreamt up the idea of leaving this long toe. Not just a slightly long toe but a very long toe being left very deliberately. I'm not sure what it achieves and no one (other than the HM people who totally lose me) seem able to explain it.

The problem is we can’t have a good discussion here as it just gets hijacked by the followers. It’s tiring and I’m just so over it. Hope you understand.

L

 

[paddy555]

The problem is we can’t have a good discussion here as it just gets hijacked by the followers. It’s tiring and I’m just so over it. Hope you understand.

L

I do understand, sadly. I have looked at your FB page a bit more now and am enjoying following so I can see your ideas/ conclusions etc.
I'm sorry if you are going to leave us as we need all the technical input we can to discuss. Good luck and thanks for your contributions on my thread.

 

[Apizz2019]

Well I think 10.6K owners, vets, farriers, hoof care pros, going up at a rapid pace couldn’t all be sucked in by one person could they? That’s rather disingenuous of you to assume all those people are that gullible.

There is a huge following, agreed, however, some professionals have been shot down, especially on the BHM page.

Oh no, you misread me, I don’t think their case studies are tremendously successful, they are. Are you in the Phoenix group?

Are there any peer reviewed studies?

It seems that on this entire thread there is no-one who is actually in their group or who can in fact talk about any of their rehabs in any depth other than moan about the way the foot looks and lever forces, which they’ve shown clearly don’t exist.

I'm in the group. A lurker, like you.

 

[paddy555]

Ask them to share my apparent words with you. Or maybe I’m actually taking to the master???

when CCC started posting I wondered that. Then I thought no this must be one of the followers as the master would come on prepared to discuss and explain and educate. Then I looked at the last post and I recognise what I am pretty sure is the master.

 

[Forum Admin Team]

Thread suspended following complaint - review of specific content pending.

In the interim please do not revisit this topic elsewhere on the forum.

Some content has been removed.

Please be mindful of the forum T&C when contributing.

 

[Hoofstudies]

I do understand, sadly. I have looked at your FB page a bit more now and am enjoying following so I can see your ideas/ conclusions etc.
I'm sorry if you are going to leave us as we need all the technical input we can to discuss. Good luck and thanks for your contributions on my thread.

Thank you @paddy555

 

[Tiddlypom]

I am glad to see that the thread continues .

 

[paddy555]

I am glad to see that the thread continues .

I'm amazed.

 

[paddy555]

Oh no, you misread me, I don’t think their case studies are tremendously successful, they are. Are you in the Phoenix group?


Well I think 10.6K owners, vets, farriers, hoof care pros, going up at a rapid pace couldn’t all be sucked in by one person could they?

It seems that on this entire thread there is no-one who is actually in their group or who can in fact talk about any of their rehabs in any depth other than moan about the way the foot looks and lever forces, which they’ve shown clearly don’t exist.

don't forget that 10.6k are not all supporters they are simply followers watching what is going on. It is a mistake to assume all agree with you HM. A large number don't. They are just watching

Not only am I on your FB groups I have posted several times. Obviously a total waste of time as my comments have been ridiculed as you are not open to discussion.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Wow, how did I miss all of this

My response to the HM advocates on this thread is that THE biggest issue with HM and GTL is their black and white thinking regarding their 'belief system' of how horses should be trimmed, fed and managed - in their minds there is only one right way to do these things, there is no flexibility on their stance and any questioning will be met with ridicule, blocking and deleting comments. The discussion has inevitably come to an open forum because they censor it on their own pages. The irony is that most people who find their way to their pages are very open minded, and want to learn. But open-minded people also question things and think critically, they don't just follow blindly.

I don't see much tit-for-tat when both pages are constantly dragging the name of other hoof care providers through the mud - I do actually think that the majority of the wider barefoot community want to learn from each other, even if they question or disagree sometimes. Even many farriers and EPs collaborate peacefully and respectfully.

You know it's a cult when you start recognising the names of their top followers who are spamming up every group with their angry rhetoric. I could literally write out the full names of their top three fans on here, but I'll save them the embarrassment. I even got hate mail from one of them for *oh the horror* suggesting that a horse on a hay only diet might need a balancer - I had to block them to stop them from harassing me!

[Content removed], before suggesting that their method is some kind of miracle cure. I feel the need to bring this up again, because I think it's extremely important to remember that anyone and everyone can curate a certain image online, and will most likely not show you the failures, only the successes. My issue is that they promote their method as being the holy grail, when they HAVE failed using said methods in the past.

Sometimes things go terribly wrong, bad judgements are made, we are all human and hindsight is a wonderful thing. I say that myself as someone who is always learning from my mistakes in life. The problem is that they are promoting their methods as fool-proof, THE only way to make your horse healthy. They meet any questioning with aggression, as if they are perfect and their way of doing things is flawless. But it isn't.

I enjoy reading research and learning things from online webinars etc, but it scares me that some people are being encouraged to take all of their advice from the internet, rather than working with professionals IRL who they build trusting relationships with. It also scares me that people are being told not to trust their vets or non HM trimmers as a default.

I'm glad that the thread is still up, because above all it highlights the importance to consider a range of viewpoints, to educate yourself as best as possible on the actual science available to us, and to be skeptical of anyone who refuses to acknowledge that there is nuance in life and not everything can be packaged up neatly as a one-size-fits-all method.

 

[Reacher]

Ok, that’s quite a few to think of off the top of your head, could you list us your top 5?

Re long toes - recommendations based on decades of peer reviewed research

Bowker: Navicular Issues Begin Earlier Than We Think

Initiating rehab methods earlier might promote healthier foot structures and reverse tissue degeneration.

thehorse.com

Effects of barefoot trimming on hoof morphology - PubMed

Bevelling the toe and engaging the frog and bars in the weight-bearing function of the foot resulted in elevation of the heel angle and solar angle of P3. These changes may be beneficial in treating under-run heels and negative solar plane angulation of P3.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I endeavour to trim my own 2 to RB’s guidelines

 

[Landcruiser]

https://www.facebook.com/garry.hinton.9/posts/pfbid035tvnXFWhvwYzEfj5Kg4Bq9q5yHabT28DniaRjnvWX1ouNTyAi3fjCNUgpyAszhnEl

as an engineer if we call this foot (garry's link above) stretched, sheared, (not your shear above), pull on white line, lever forces, very overlong toe etc is there any reason why it is desirable?

This was the trimmer that cause my horse's toes to grow long and his soundness to decrease. The same happened to my friend's horse, same trimmer, same time. Case study enough for me.

 

[ClipClopCommander]

Well, thank you to everyone on this thread for sharing your perspectives. I dipped my toe in but have realized we’re worlds apart here. I understand that hoof care can be a deeply polarising topic, with many differing opinions and approaches. As someone who has been in the equine world for over two decades, a biochemist, and both a DVM (I forgot to tell you that) and a horse owner who has personally rehabilitated my own horse from P3 rotation using TPW, and lost many others over my career, I can tell you I’ve encountered many of these debates before.

In my experience, our traditional approaches to laminitis and remedial hoof care have focused on short-term solutions, sometimes at the expense of long-term horse welfare. I’ve found the HM philosophy to be a refreshing shift, one rooted in both common sense and practical application. My own horse’s recovery is a testament to the effectiveness of this approach.

I appreciate the desire to discuss all methods openly, but I’ve noticed this thread leans more towards assumptions and name-calling than constructive dialogue. That’s unfortunate because, whether we agree or not, these discussions should ultimately serve the best interests of the horse. I fear this thread was never actually rooted in that cause.

For those who are curious, HM provides over 130 hours of free educational content, and I’d encourage anyone to explore it with an open mind. They recently released data on their professional school and have now 60+ HMB Pros in over 14 countries (a mixture of fully qualified and training). I mention this merely to attest that these people are not all the gullible souls you make them out to be.

One of their latest intakes had a retired Consultant Oncologist, a Dr in Ophthalmology, a pharmacist, and joins professions such as other medical doctors, teachers and even a human rights lawyer. Are they all gullible fools been drawn in by a cult leader who is a liar?

It’s fine if you disagree with their philosophy, but dismissing them outright without investigation will no doubt end up being counterproductive for you. In my view, the equine industry is at a crossroads, and approaches like HM’s are leading the way toward much-needed change.

I have colleagues in the Phoenix group from Germany, Japan, USA, Australia and Spain (of the ones who have shown themselves so far to me) all of us quite worn down by the failing protocols we were taught to use, which clearly are nowhere near good enough for our dear domestic horses, as we continue to lose them at a staggering rate. We should be looking at why we are failing and I believe HM just might have that key. One of my colleagues who comes from Brisbane, is about to embark on her 2 year journey with HM to become a pro so she can be a trained HMB Pro alongside her clinical practice. The first vet to officially practice with them.

So, I will try not to take offense at the assumptions that I might not know my own mind, and that clearly I have been sucked in and am not able to discern who HM really are, and that I must just be another gullible follower, much like my other colleagues in there.

I’ll leave it at that and wish you all the best in your own journeys with hoof care. At the end of the day, we all share the same goal: healthier, happier horses. If I can open my mind, it’s quite possible I would say for you to open yours.

Farewell.

 

[Apizz2019]

Well, thank you to everyone on this thread for sharing your perspectives. I dipped my toe in but have realized we’re worlds apart here. I understand that hoof care can be a deeply polarising topic, with many differing opinions and approaches. As someone who has been in the equine world for over two decades, a biochemist, and both a DVM (I forgot to tell you that) and a horse owner who has personally rehabilitated my own horse from P3 rotation using TPW, and lost many others over my career, I can tell you I’ve encountered many of these debates before.

In my experience, our traditional approaches to laminitis and remedial hoof care have focused on short-term solutions, sometimes at the expense of long-term horse welfare. I’ve found the HM philosophy to be a refreshing shift, one rooted in both common sense and practical application. My own horse’s recovery is a testament to the effectiveness of this approach.

I didn't read all of your post as I feel you have been less than honest, to say the least, about who you are.

You originally came here to debate and declared yourself to be a lurker, someone with little knowledge, someone watching from the sidelines.

You are now a DVM who has rehabilitated your own horse from P3 rotation, using TPW.

I smell something, and it's not mince pies!

 

[paddy555]

so CCC has gone from post

207 Media Studies,

post 210 "in your country" (UK) or someone posting at 2.26am when the US has got out of bed (or couldn't sleep with the wind of course)

post 237 "I would imagine that like me most of you commenting have little to no hoof care experience"

to their recent post where they are now a DVM who has rehabbed their own horse and lost many others.

I wonder what would have been next? the man in the moon perhaps Surely it hasn't been the school hols has it? and we have had a little "T"

I can only make a few assumptions about CCC

firstly a good imagination (it has been a cracking story so thanks CCC) second somewhat not too keen on accuracy surrounding her qualifications or anything else (being very careful not to use a stronger word in case CCC complains to admin)

next assumption is I would expect a vet to be question this sort of stuff in very great detail and to have the capacity (anatomy etc that they must learn) to be able to fully explain the technicalities.


CCC, I'm sure you will still be looking in but if you want something to read try thelaminitissite.org and study the derotational trim. There are lots of X rays, case studies etc etc.

I smell something, and it's not mince pies!

so do I. A rat possibly? or a pig flying past (it has been very windy here)

One of their latest intakes had a retired Consultant Oncologist, a Dr in Ophthalmology, a pharmacist, and joins professions such as other medical doctors, teachers and even a human rights lawyer. Are they all gullible fools been drawn in by a cult leader who is a liar?

this really stood out because that was more or less the intake of the original Strasser devotees. Strasser was without doubt a cult and a LOT of gulible fools were very sadly drawn in.

 

[Peglo]

At the end of the day, we all share the same goal: healthier, happier horses. If I can open my mind, it’s quite possible I would say for you to open yours.

That’s unfortunate because, whether we agree or not, these discussions should ultimately serve the best interests of the horse. I fear this thread was never actually rooted in that cause.

In fairness they can’t decide if we care about our horses or not in a single post, never mind what they wrote days ago

 

[Apizz2019]

It's been a tall tale for sure, which now must sadly come to an end, unless CCC would like to provide us with more much needed entertainment, on what is an otherwise dreary day.

I must come clean too because I forgot to say, I'm a 3x lottery winner. Only £2.60, but a winner nonetheless.

As an aside, I'm always disappointed when a liars pants don't actually catch on fire!

 

[Landcruiser]

What I particularly enjoyed was the ever evolving hoof expertise as pointed out by Paddy above, And the evolution of "they" (other HM/PW dipper inners), to "we" to "colleagues" to absolute insider knowledge of who is joining and training, what their qualifications are, and where they all are in the world

 

[Apizz2019]

What I particularly enjoyed was the ever evolving hoof expertise as pointed out by Paddy above, And the evolution of "they" (other HM/PW dipper inners), to "we" to "colleagues" to absolute insider knowledge of who is joining and training, what their qualifications are, and where they all are in the world

Eastenders version of the hoof movement.

Less than plausible storyline, terrible acting, and an annoying theme tune.

Okay, I made up the theme tune bit but every time CCC posted, I did do a little 'tada da da' in my mind.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Eastenders version of the hoof movement.

Less than plausible storyline, terrible acting, and an annoying theme tune.

Okay, I made up the theme tune bit but every time CCC posted, I did do a little 'tada da da' in my mind.

I was tempted to post a YT of the theme tune just so it was here.

 

[Apizz2019]

I was tempted to post a YT of the theme tune just so it was here.

I think you should.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Is anyone tech savvy enough to make an east enders theme tune remix out of hoof clippy cloppy noises?

 

[Dave's Mam]

I think you should.

 

[Apizz2019]

That's made my day!

 

[Apizz2019]

I saw a post this morning of a horse that's been wearing cloud boots that have rubbed.

Someone, sensibly, has asked if the boots fit because of the long toe.

Pics are of a sore heel, there is gunk around the back of the heel and it would, in my opinion, warrant a vet visit as it looks infected.

I s**t you not, someone has answered... 'The goop on them is natural release gel'.

I'm going to pull that line on my vet if ever I have a goopy infection.

Crying.

 

[paddy555]

I saw a post this morning of a horse that's been wearing cloud boots that have rubbed.

Someone, sensibly, has asked if the boots fit because of the long toe.

Pics are of a sore heel, there is gunk around the back of the heel and it would, in my opinion, warrant a vet visit as it looks infected.

I s**t you not, someone has answered... 'The goop on them is natural release gel'.

I'm going to pull that line on my vet if ever I have a goopy infection.

Crying.

any chance of a link please Apizz? can't find it.

 

[Apizz2019]

any chance of a link please Apizz? can't find it.

Here is the link - it's a private group so not sure you'll be able to see. https://www.facebook.com/share/p/18WJ1u1eGo/

I've just looked at the comment again and it's the OP who has said about natural release gel. Maybe it's a topical ointment, but can't say I've ever heard of such a thing.