barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.

[Arzada]

I would also imagine, that like me, most of you commenting here have little to no hoof care experience?

I recommend acquainting yourself with the many other hoof care threads and the posts of the many hoof care experienced posters

 

[Hoofstudies]

I am just at the very start of planning to develop my own track livery. I've agreed the purchase of the land where I already keep my horses, and it's perfect for track livery. The behaviour of these groups towards other professionals is my biggest fear when it comes to publicising my project and business.

You just must develop your track and livery. It’s desperately needed and I would literally ignore and block anyone being nasty to you. I’ll support your venture. I’d love to if you have sensible trimmers. .

I don’t think I can give you my private details but look up my page and message me there.

 

[Hoofstudies]

I'm a lurker on the pages of all involved parties and from what I've seen they're all as bad as each other, in fact I've never seen such a divisive community of so called 'professionals'.

All appear to have the 'my way or the highway' attitude and are rude and block anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I'm sure I'm not the only one getting a little tired of the 'woe is me' posts when they themselves are called out, unjustly or not. It's tit for tat and belongs in the primary school playground.

It's an utter s***show, in my opinion, and detracts from the purpose of the groups/pages. I see nothing more than a cackle of, mostly, women going at each other all the time - it's ridiculous and very unprofessional.

 

[Hoofstudies]

Yes it has got bad and I appreciate your comment.

I’m going to try my hardest to just focus on my equine research and my findings, my thoughts and questions. And put this s… behind me as I hope the other party does as well. As we just potter on in our own separate worlds.

You are absolutely right.
Thank you.

Peace and forgiveness. I’ll try


L

 

[Hoofstudies]

Your removal of the post shows that you knew it was wrong... and your attempt to make peace with the person proves that you knew exactly who it was directed at. It's not just a word, it's a vile slur. So come down off your moral high ground about 'disrespect' because we see you for who you are.

You are entitled to your opinions and I am to mine. So my apologies if I caused offence. Yes of course I took it down. And yes I will try to make peace. But unfortunately I get rather angry when poked.

You can see me however you want to see me. I know who I am and so does a huge number of people.

Peace to you. And thank you for helping me understand better how I need to act.

 

[Hoofstudies]

It’s not ‘just a word’, well not in my country anyway (UK) it is one of the most disgusting words to ever be used, and especially when it is directed towards a woman from another woman. Words carry weight, especially when it’s deliberately highlighted and posted in a way that encourages mockery and negativity. Leaving the post up while others pile on only amplifies the harm. The intent was clear, and the damage was done while the post was up. Simply removing it after the fact, or dismissing it, doesn’t change what happened. Pretending you didn’t know who it was aimed at when many of your followers were all talking about it and sharing and mocking on that thread, is just disingenuous and manipulative; it’s called feigning ignorance or ‘playing dumb’. Most people can see through that.

What about the time just before this vile word was shared that you shared a podcast labelling HM as a ‘cult’? A word used in this thread many times. I’m sure many of us listened to that podcast and, if you could get through all the swearing, it was one of the most unprofessional podcasts I’ve ever heard (and I listen to many). Again you shared that, knowing full well it would start a pile on.

The truth doesn’t need sensationalism or veiled attacks, it just needs consistency and evidence.

As I said the jury is still out whether HM are right or not, but from what I see, the evidence is now piling up and what they are saying about standards in hoof care really does seem to be true, it’s very poor worldwide. There are some absolutely shocking examples of suffering equines on their Phoenix page and the ones that can be turned around are getting better.

It’s time to move beyond the woe-is-me narrative. Disagreeing with a method or philosophy is one thing; using that disagreement to launch personal or professional attacks is something else entirely. The line is crossed when actions are taken not to inform or educate, but to discredit, divide, and harm.

Thank you.
I’ll try harder.

 

[Apizz2019]

Yes it has got bad and I appreciate your comment.

I’m going to try my hardest to just focus on my equine research and my findings, my thoughts and questions. And put this s… behind me as I hope the other party does as well. As we just potter on in our own separate worlds.

You are absolutely right.
Thank you.

Peace and forgiveness. I’ll try


L

Whether anyone agrees with your methods, their methods, or none at all, there is a place in the world for everyone.

There is always room for healthy debate, and some groups/individuals may be more open to that than others, but in the professional world there is no room for cutting anyone down and most certainly not using or sharing vile profanities aimed at an individual.

Simply put, there are far better and more constructive ways to express opinions to encourage healthy debates.

Who knows, you may all learn from each other!

 

[Fransurrey]

You're right—HM probably does delete comments, but it’s likely to minimize confusion. There are plenty of barefoot groups where various methods are debated, and that’s great; readers can draw their own conclusions. However, HM instructors openly acknowledge they’ve "been there, done that, bought the T-shirt" when it comes to practices like chopped toes and high heels. Now, having learned from those mistakes, they’ve adopted an approach that truly delivers results.

It’s essentially: "We’ve made all the mistakes, so you don’t have to." Therefore, I think it’s entirely reasonable for them to want their group to focus solely on their proven methods, free from conflicting theories or advice that might dilute the message and confuse equine owners even more.

This is very much what cults do. If HM wants to shed that tag, then they need to open up debate, allow readers to draw informed conclusions and study what you say is conflicting theories and advice. That is how science and policy change works. The approach you're describing only serves to alienate peers and scholars alike.

Clipclopcommander, you say above:

...

The question isn’t whether everyone else is ‘wrong,’ but whether we can challenge outdated methods to save more horses, and our evidence shows we can. There are hoof care pros, and vets I might add, in that group who are agreeing with HM.

Can you clarify what your relationship is with HM? What do you mean by 'our'? I'm asking as you say 'they/their' a lot, but this comment threw me!

 

[Apizz2019]

Can you clarify what your relationship is with HM? What do you mean by 'our'? I'm asking as you say 'they/their' a lot, but this comment threw me!

Freudian slip, maybe?

Clipclop responded to one of my comments to say they were also a lurker of said groups, like me. I'd assume being a fellow lurker would mean they are not heavily involved with said group/s, and are more of a bystander.

 

[Apizz2019]

Cynical me finds it interesting that two members on this thread who have been challenging, for want of a better word, joined on Sunday and came straight to this post.

It will be interesting to see if they are ever active on other threads.

 

[paddy555]

It’s clear from this thread that there’s a lot of misunderstanding about what HM does and why. I'm guessing that you are basing your information on some of the snippets you have seen on Facebook and perhaps being influence by other pages such as the one from HoofStudies. I would also imagine, that like me, most of you commenting here have little to no hoof care experience? This then is naturally going to lead to confusion and scepticism. As someone who’s followed HM for a while, and spent quite a bit of this year in their Phoenix group, I’ve seen first-hand what they’re about, and it’s far from the negative image being painted here.

HM consistently shares x-rays, photos, videos, and case studies showing their real-world progress. These aren’t cherry-picked successes as is so often said of them. They openly show challenges and setbacks too. While some may dismiss this as anecdotal, the results from hundreds of horses - many deemed hopeless by vets and farriers - are a little bit hard to ignore. Real-world, repeatable success carries significant weight when it’s saving lives. And that is what drives progress, whether the equine world think it wants it or not.

I’ve learned a great deal from their live sessions and free videos in the group, where they help owners with serious hoof issues. I haven’t done one of their challenges or workshops yet, but I’m seriously considering it. They teach hundreds of people each year, and I’ve never seen complaints. You might suggest negative posts are removed, but the group doesn’t pre-approve posts, so we’d all see them if they existed. Instead, people rave about their courses, and I’ve seen countless stories of turnarounds.

Don't believe me of course, join the group and see for yourself.

an excellent post (I am being serious) You have outlined the exact problem I opened this thread for so thank you.

To summarise you say you have little to no hoof care experience
nowhere have you detailed your experience of other methods of hoof care
nor of what hands on training you have done nor the number of dissections you have watched nor those you have personally done
nor of feet you have handled to assess nor of feet you have personally trimmed, nor of problem feet you have been involved with.

you have watched live sessions and free videos.

I am not confused, but you are right I am sceptical.

It is important to consider your audience. On here many commenting have done most of the above. It wasn't free. I don't like to even think of how much it all cost me..

I hadn't heard of Hoof studies until a couple of days ago. I haven't had time to do more that glance at her FB page. Can I ask are you commenting about HS because technically you disagree with her or because she simply comments adversely on HM. If the former I'm sure she will be delighted to discuss points with you, if the latter then can I suggest that you read her FB page in very great detail. I have only glanced at it but there seems to be a lot of good educational stuff.

HM may not pre approve posts but those who disagree are either removed or made fun of. I have been doing this for a very long time and I recognise some of the names. They are hoof professionals and even vets of very many years standing and experience. You may not realise that but experienced people do and those are the posts that should be left to give group members more experience. Except of course HM doesn't like them so off they go. You cannot just cancel people with 25, 30 or more years experience.

I have joined and seen the groups BTW.

The behaviour in the group is far from what I’d call a cult - it’s very supportive, educational, and solution-focused. It’s a refreshing change from the confusion and negativity in other groups that frankly are mass of conflicting advice. Many followers are experienced owners or professionals who’ve seen results first-hand. For those new to the natural way of hoof care, HM seems to take the time to educate, ensuring people can make informed decisions.

Decisions like leaving toes longer are made carefully, guided by x-rays and the horse’s specific needs. I’ve seen owners working alongside vets and navigating differing opinions, but every choice prioritises the horse’s welfare.

Now it sounds like I am head over heals with them here, I'm not, I'm still reserving judgement, but I do have to say that I have never experienced a group like their Phoenix group anywhere on FB and I've been a few!

Despite what you all are saying here, HM is open to scrutiny and encourages constructive discussion - and frequently have discussions on the threads on their group. I think if more people focused on learning and understanding their approach, rather than making assumptions, the conversation would be far more productive. At the end of the day, the goal is the same: better outcomes for horses - and right now, when you look around the internet at other hoof methods (although HM say there's isn't a method) HM is delivering on all fronts. You may not like their approach, and that's fine, but to keep belittling them as a 'cult', seems churlish when so many other groups could be called that too - including H&H forum threads sometimes.

Anyway, that's my experience, and I fear the majority of people here have made their mind up about HM before even trying to find out more information - which you need to do if you are not a hoof professional like me.

no one is belittling them as a cult. They are one. I remember posts some time ago saying they were and even posting pics of their cult T shirts. Their choice to be a cult. I think they are perfectly happy being regarded as a cult.

now to get to the real problem which you have illustrated perfectly. Many members of the HM groups are like yourself. Many will have little knowledge of other methods, some no knowledge. Without that you have no way of deciding is HM is good or questionable. Nothing to base your judgment on. HM posts something, people agree and so after a while it becomes truth. Sadly it is not.
You say decisions like leaving toes longer are made carefully. How many how your trimmed and taken back and how many have you left long? what has been the effect on the horse?
Without that hands on experience it is not possible to judge other than to repeat what HM says.

So more and more novices join, seems to be a lovely friendly place to be and everyone likes something so it becomes even more gospel. Then we have all those horrible vets, farriers, trimmers, researchers etc who don't agree. So they must be criticised. Not based on anything because the members don't actually understand what they are saying.

You say if you look around the internet at other hoof methods HM is delivering on all fronts? can you explain precisely what you mean, what methods, what is wrong with them etc

People do argue on other groups about hoof care. That is good. It is excellent because out of that argument comes progress. An idea comes up, it is endlessly pulled apart and finally something close to the truth emerges.
You may not realise because theire is a long history to BF trimming (ie trimmers and owners) but at the start of what has become the barefoot movement which started around 2000 people had just about no professional help. Farriers hated us. We had to import US farriers to run courses for us. We are now lucky because some farriers have come on board (and some vets) and brought their experience which they are now sharing. Far from criticising those people who adversely comment on HM we should be grateful for their input.

can I suggest that you obtain some practical experience? both in other methods online websites and videos and out in the field. You can never really tell what a foot is like until the horse is in the flesh with the hoof in your hand. If you are not trimming already learn to use the tools, it gives a whole new outlook on life. Trim and dissect some cadavers. Approach some trimmers and farriers and go out with them for a couple of days each. Learn what they are seeing in reality because often it is far different than a video/picture. Look at the considerations they have to make about the foot because it is not one size fits all.

 

[Landcruiser]

It’s clear from this thread that there’s a lot of misunderstanding about what HM does and why. I'm guessing that you are basing your information on some of the snippets you have seen on Facebook and perhaps being influence by other pages such as the one from HoofStudies. I would also imagine, that like me, most of you commenting here have little to no hoof care experience? This then is naturally going to lead to confusion and scepticism. As someone who’s followed HM for a while, and spent quite a bit of this year in their Phoenix group, I’ve seen first-hand what they’re about, and it’s far from the negative image being painted here.

....

Anyway, that's my experience, and I fear the majority of people here have made their mind up about HM before even trying to find out more information - which you need to do if you are not a hoof professional like me.

Paddy and I don't always agree on everything but their post in reply to this one is perfect, and is the one I would have written myself if I had the time and patience. But I would like to answer the points above.

I had a horse trimmed by one of the senior HM trimmers, just a few yrs ago. This was a horse with a long history of hoof difficulties and less than easy behaviour - however, he had been trimmed successfully and soundly by a pro trimmer (non HM) for years -she then retired and left me needing another trimmer. A local friend and myself employed the HM trimmer for several rounds of trimming. We both saw the hooves of our horses deteriorate - the heels got lower and the toes got longer. Soundness and movement suffered. Once this trimmer was "moved on," another trimmer took over (non HM) and the hooves improved - horse was sound until his death last yr under this trimmer.
With regards to hoof care experience - I have self trimmed my other barefoot horse/s myself for a decade, including my performance TREC horse who has always remained sound and still has wonderful feet aged 25. I have attended and participated in several hoof courses, clinics and dissections, I have read many books by different professionals, follow several barefoot groups, have watched many, many HS dissections online..and I have a pretty clear understanding of what HM is about.

 

[Hoofstudies]

You are entitled to your opinions and I am to mine. So my apologies if I caused offence. Yes of course I took it down. And yes I will try to make peace. But unfortunately I get rather angry when poked.

You can see me however you want to see me. I know who I am and so does a huge number of people.

Peace to you. And thank you for helping me understand better how I need to act.

After a good sleep I wanted to just bring a few things to the table here. I am speaking as myself. LF known as the study of the equine hoof on Facebook Patreon YouTube and insta

I’m really surprised that my page and myself are singled out by this HM group, let’s be clear, the co founder. I shared posts on my page that did ruffle feathers but I was clearly not the only person in the world to share the posts. Why was I specifically pulled to account for sharing?
Why did the other folks sharing not have the same attacks made on them.

I’ve been quite happily posting my findings my thoughts and I share things in my page. I never asked it to reach 81k followers. The spat with HM started in Nov 2023 when my mini had laminitis. And I shared this from day 1. Why would I open myself up to sharing my private journey where I had obviously failed as a horse owner? To help others. Simply.
My errors are published so people realise there are no absolutes when it comes to hoof care.

My journey with my mini, Peanut, was great as I learnt for myself the horror that other owners have been through.

Only yesterday I was asked to help a mare with acute laminitis and 2 mm from sole perforation. This mare did not make it. And I totally supported the owner with the options and decision. Plus vet advice and I’ll say a very very good equine vet.
Some don’t make it and honestly we don’t know what the outcome will be. It’s a crystal ball depending how much damage has occurred inside the foot.

Yes many respond and get through and many go back to their normal lives but we really cannot be absolutely sure of the outcome.

So my journey with Peanut, I shared from day 1. To help others. It could have gone horribly wrong. I was prepared for that and I shared weekly.

But then HM wanted to get in on the act and were quite horrible and many jumped to my defence. I blocked their unsolicited advice.

Then I posted peanuts X-rays with my vets opinions and again HM came back with veiled scorn at my vets comments and my comments. Now I was in a state of shock with my pony and the last thing I needed was a public tut tut. Why not contact me privately. To help and not blow their trumpets. And so the attacks continues from the cult members. And yes they too are quite happy to be called a cult as far as I am aware.

I’m sick of them singling me out. But I’m not going to stop posting on my page my findings on dissection, my views, my thoughts on trims etc.

I think my large following is the prime reason for the constant attacks on me personally.

As for the lies told in their last vile post on their page, I have gone back to the owner of the chestnut that they spoke about and showed her their statements. She was utterly apalled and I have this in writing. I’m not going to feed HM any more with publishing my defence. I simply don’t need to.

As for Honey Pony- she came to me to be euthanised and subsequently her poor legs to study. But I wanted to help her. And she taught me so much and she stole my heart.

Her condition of the subluxed fetlock was bad. She had bone chips from a previous suggested injury.
She had laminitis on her good leg.
I was totally transparent to the people that donated to her give a little page
I was transparent on my Patreon and my hoof studies page.

I know my motives. It’s to help horses and owners.

I’m not a professional trimmer. I’ve never said I was.

Those that know me understand.
The tactics of HM are disgraceful and they have been just as nasty to other professionals and it’s vile and dirty.

Why? To discredit the others who will not follow their method. May I add it’s a trim method. That’s simply it. It’s a human deciding how the foot should be trimmed. Don’t be fooled.

Yes they will get good results - great! But horses are not all the same and the flood of people that are coming to be telling me how the HM method is not working for their horse is pretty high. And growing.

Horses are not factory produced identical things. One trim dies not fit all.
To say a trim method is the only way and vets farriers and trimmers that don’t follow their trim are harming horses is simply rubbish.

Remember in science there are outliers.
Things that don’t fit the norm
There are failures and outstanding successes. That’s real.

Someone that always gets good results- beware.

I’m pleased I have this safe forum to Doral my case and I’m sure I’ll be attacked and each sentence pulled apart.

Fine. Go ahead.
I’m not stopping sharing my experience, my education and my love for horses.

LF

 

[paddy555]

Paddy and I don't always agree on everything but their post in reply to this one is perfect, and is the one I would have written myself if I had the time and patience. But I would like to answer the points above.

I had a horse trimmed by one of the senior HM trimmers, just a few yrs ago. This was a horse with a long history of hoof difficulties and less than easy behaviour - however, he had been trimmed successfully and soundly by a pro trimmer (non HM) for years -she then retired and left me needing another trimmer. A local friend and myself employed the HM trimmer for several rounds of trimming. We both saw the hooves of our horses deteriorate - the heels got lower and the toes got longer. Soundness and movement suffered. Once this trimmer was "moved on," another trimmer took over (non HM) and the hooves improved - horse was sound until his death last yr under this trimmer.
With regards to hoof care experience - I have self trimmed my other barefoot horse/s myself for a decade, including my performance TREC horse who has always remained sound and still has wonderful feet aged 25. I have attended and participated in several hoof courses, clinics and dissections, I have read many books by different professionals, follow several barefoot groups, have watched many, many HS dissections online..and I have a pretty clear understanding of what HM is about.

loved your first para

I had forgotten your experiences with the HM trimmer. That is a good (and sad) example of the HM trimming IRL.

 

[paddy555]

After a good sleep I wanted to just bring a few things to the table here. I am speaking as myself. LF known as the study of the equine hoof on Facebook Patreon YouTube and insta

I’m really surprised that my page and myself are singled out by this HM group, let’s be clear, the co founder. I shared posts on my page that did ruffle feathers but I was clearly not the only person in the world to share the posts. Why was I specifically pulled to account for sharing?
Why did the other folks sharing not have the same attacks made on them.

I’ve been quite happily posting my findings my thoughts and I share things in my page. I never asked it to reach 81k followers. The spat with HM started in Nov 2023 when my mini had laminitis. And I shared this from day 1. Why would I open myself up to sharing my private journey where I had obviously failed as a horse owner? To help others. Simply.
My errors are published so people realise there are no absolutes when it comes to hoof care.

My journey with my mini, Peanut, was great as I learnt for myself the horror that other owners have been through.

Only yesterday I was asked to help a mare with acute laminitis and 2 mm from sole perforation. This mare did not make it. And I totally supported the owner with the options and decision. Plus vet advice and I’ll say a very very good equine vet.
Some don’t make it and honestly we don’t know what the outcome will be. It’s a crystal ball depending how much damage has occurred inside the foot.

Yes many respond and get through and many go back to their normal lives but we really cannot be absolutely sure of the outcome.

So my journey with Peanut, I shared from day 1. To help others. It could have gone horribly wrong. I was prepared for that and I shared weekly.

But then HM wanted to get in on the act and were quite horrible and many jumped to my defence. I blocked their unsolicited advice.

Then I posted peanuts X-rays with my vets opinions and again HM came back with veiled scorn at my vets comments and my comments. Now I was in a state of shock with my pony and the last thing I needed was a public tut tut. Why not contact me privately. To help and not blow their trumpets. And so the attacks continues from the cult members. And yes they too are quite happy to be called a cult as far as I am aware.

I’m sick of them singling me out. But I’m not going to stop posting on my page my findings on dissection, my views, my thoughts on trims etc.

I think my large following is the prime reason for the constant attacks on me personally.

As for the lies told in their last vile post on their page, I have gone back to the owner of the chestnut that they spoke about and showed her their statements. She was utterly apalled and I have this in writing. I’m not going to feed HM any more with publishing my defence. I simply don’t need to.

As for Honey Pony- she came to me to be euthanised and subsequently her poor legs to study. But I wanted to help her. And she taught me so much and she stole my heart.

Her condition of the subluxed fetlock was bad. She had bone chips from a previous suggested injury.
She had laminitis on her good leg.
I was totally transparent to the people that donated to her give a little page
I was transparent on my Patreon and my hoof studies page.

I know my motives. It’s to help horses and owners.

I’m not a professional trimmer. I’ve never said I was.

Those that know me understand.
The tactics of HM are disgraceful and they have been just as nasty to other professionals and it’s vile and dirty.

Why? To discredit the others who will not follow their method. May I add it’s a trim method. That’s simply it. It’s a human deciding how the foot should be trimmed. Don’t be fooled.

Yes they will get good results - great! But horses are not all the same and the flood of people that are coming to be telling me how the HM method is not working for their horse is pretty high. And growing.

Horses are not factory produced identical things. One trim dies not fit all.
To say a trim method is the only way and vets farriers and trimmers that don’t follow their trim are harming horses is simply rubbish.

Remember in science there are outliers.
Things that don’t fit the norm
There are failures and outstanding successes. That’s real.

Someone that always gets good results- beware.

I’m pleased I have this safe forum to Doral my case and I’m sure I’ll be attacked and each sentence pulled apart.

Fine. Go ahead.
I’m not stopping sharing my experience, my education and my love for horses.

LF

I have briefly looked at your FB page (bit short of time) and I did notice one comment.

’d take it as a badge of honour that you’ve managed to ruffle feathers to this extent, goodness knows I’ve tried but my accreditation has been pitiful in comparison, well done!

so you get rubbish from HM followers or you get a comment from this person. shows you are effective!

 

[Hoofstudies]

Whether anyone agrees with your methods, their methods, or none at all, there is a place in the world for everyone.

There is always room for healthy debate, and some groups/individuals may be more open to that than others, but in the professional world there is no room for cutting anyone down and most certainly not using or sharing vile profanities aimed at an individual.

Simply put, there are far better and more constructive ways to express opinions to encourage healthy debates.

Who knows, you may all learn from each other!

Thank you.
Sometimes we do things we subsequently regret.

The C word, I honestly did not see it as aimed at any person. But obviously people thought it did so I apologise.

I have been pushed to the brink with this group and their followers.

Healthy debate is great but honestly the followers just use my page to gain traction. My opinion.

Thanks for commenting.
I take it on board.

 

[Hoofstudies]

I have briefly looked at your FB page (bit short of time) and I did notice one comment.

’d take it as a badge of honour that you’ve managed to ruffle feathers to this extent, goodness knows I’ve tried but my accreditation has been pitiful in comparison, well done!

so you get rubbish from HM followers or you get a comment from this person. shows you are effective!

That was funny.
But in all seriousness this group is pretty toxic. Look, I get it. Some of these horses have been really let down by professionals and it’s terrible. I agree.

There are better ways to get a message out there.

I have the text messages and voice messages I sent to a HM follower to send to HM.
I know they have them as they were used to goad me.

I have tried to build bridges.
Understand them.
But the trouble started again after they lifted my colleagues photo and sneered at my upcoming zoom class on biomechanics.

Once they did that I was wild. And the tiger was unleashed.

My childhood was a nightmare with bullies.
I see it happening again. But now I’m more a fighter and unfortunately my worst side has been unleashed.

But I’ll try and wear that badge of honour.

 

[Apizz2019]

I saw a post this morning which talks about P3 being destroyed and always being caused by toe chopping.

Does anyone know, as it isn't clear to me, what is meant by toe chopping? Are we talking conventional trimming/shoeing with toes taken back or are we talking literally hacking away at the toe? I can't say I've ever seen, in person, a hacked toe.

They say....

"Hacking off the toe wall forces horses to walk on their soles, increasing unnatural pressure towards the tip of P3… leading to bone death, P3 degeneration, and irreversible damage.

And yet, you justify it with outdated excuses like “bringing back the breakover” and “removal of lever forces.”

So, are lever forces and breakover not a thing and something we shouldn't consider when balancing a foot?

The more I read, the more confused I am.

It doesn't take much.

 

[Tiddlypom]

‘Toe chopping’ is the accusation thrown by a number of highly uninformed barefoot trimmers and their groupies at anyone who thinks that foot balance like this from an EPA trimmer is wrong and needs correcting, which it clearly does. This is long toe/low heel, it is dreadful foot balance. It developed over a period of well over a year with 4 to 6 weekly trims by the trimmer. The feet were in good balance at the start.

When I mentioned to the trimmer that my vet said that the toes were too long, he informed me that my vet wanted him to ‘dump’ (ie chop) the toes. He had no conception of how bad this foot balance was that he had facilitated, and no idea of how to correct it.

I offered to get a fresh set of x rays done to help with the foot balance, and the EPA trimmer airily replied ‘No matter what the x rays showed, I wouldn’t trim these feet any differently’.





A good farrier later got those feet back into good balance in a few sessions over a few months without chopping any toes, just by using skill, training and knowledge. Look at the ermine mark on the coronet band, it’s the same horse.

 

[Apizz2019]

‘Top chopping’ is the accusation thrown by a number of highly uninformed barefoot trimmers and their groupies at anyone who thinks that foot balance like this from an EPA trimmer is wrong and needs correcting, which it clearly does. This is long toe/low heel, it is dreadful foot balance. It developed over a period of well over a year with 4 to 6 weekly trims by the trimmer. The feet were in good balance at the start.

When I mentioned to the trimmer that my vet said that the toes were too long, he informed that my vet wanted him to ‘dump’ (ie chop) the toes. He had no conception of how bad this foot balance was that he had facilitated, and no idea of how to correct it.

I offered to get a fresh set of x rays done to help with the foot balance, and the EPA trimmer airily replied ‘No matter what the x rays showed, I wouldn’t trim these feet any differently’.

View attachment 151215



A good farrier later got those feet back into good balance in a few sessions over a few months without chopping any toes, just by using skill, training and knowledge. Look at the ermine mark on the coronet band, it’s the same horse.

View attachment 151218

Similar scenario with our horse. Unfortunately, his heels were so underrun we had no option other than to bring back the toe and shoe, to try to help the heel to grow.

 

[paddy555]

I saw a post this morning which talks about P3 being destroyed and always being caused by toe chopping.

Does anyone know, as it isn't clear to me, what is meant by toe chopping? Are we talking conventional trimming/shoeing with toes taken back or are we talking literally hacking away at the toe? I can't say I've ever seen, in person, a hacked toe.

They say....

"Hacking off the toe wall forces horses to walk on their soles, increasing unnatural pressure towards the tip of P3… leading to bone death, P3 degeneration, and irreversible damage.

And yet, you justify it with outdated excuses like “bringing back the breakover” and “removal of lever forces.”

So, are lever forces and breakover not a thing and something we shouldn't consider when balancing a foot?

The more I read, the more confused I am.

It doesn't take much.

no idea, we could have asked our 2 new friends for their help in understanding this but they seem to have disappeared.

to my mind chopping toes is a childish and ridiculous choice of words. Overtrimming the toe would be a more normal way of expressing it.

 

[Apizz2019]

no idea, we could have asked our 2 new friends for their help in understanding this but they seem to have disappeared.

Funny that

 

[Hoofstudies]

no idea, we could have asked our 2 new friends for their help in understanding this but they seem to have disappeared.

to my mind chopping toes is a childish and ridiculous choice of words. Overtrimming the toe would be a more normal way of expressing it.

I hope I can help you with my understanding.

Toe chopping is a highly emotional word that HM use to describe bringing back the toe.

Conventional treatment for laminitis is to help the foot to breakover. Ie get that foot off the ground quickly without a long toe hindering it. Think clown shoes. It’s not exact but help to understand.

The foot can breakover with a long toe as the knee bends but the foot and muscles need to work harder to lift the long toe over. This in time can cause upper body issues, again per my training. Not my opinions.

The forces inside the foot especially at the lamellae are higher with the longer toe because the DDFT needs to apply more tension to lift the foot- as I understand it.

The Hm group say there are no lever forces. Well whatever forces that occur at the lamellae may not be “lever forces” but are more accurately described as shear forces. Shear forces at the lamellae bone interface.

They do show some shocking images of feet that in my opinion are not good at all.
The heels are too high for a start and I agree they need to be reduced. I believe according to my training, slow reduction.

The flipper toe in my opinion and my training is not helping the horse.

Caveat I’m not a professional trimmer. I never said I was. I study the foots anatomy and biomechanics, and function.

I trim my own horses and help out friends and people asking me to help.

Hope this helps.

I’m trying to drop off this thread as I really dont want the heartache that I get from HM.

 

[Landcruiser]

Hope this helps.

I’m trying to drop off this thread as I really dont want the heartache that I get from HM.

We are generally civilized and open to discussion on this forum Lindsey, with some very experienced and knowledgeable participants. Cults don't tend to last long.

 

[paddy555]

I hope I can help you with my understanding.

Toe chopping is a highly emotional word that HM use to describe bringing back the toe.

Conventional treatment for laminitis is to help the foot to breakover. Ie get that foot off the ground quickly without a long toe hindering it. Think clown shoes. It’s not exact but help to understand.

The foot can breakover with a long toe as the knee bends but the foot and muscles need to work harder to lift the long toe over. This in time can cause upper body issues, again per my training. Not my opinions.

The forces inside the foot especially at the lamellae are higher with the longer toe because the DDFT needs to apply more tension to lift the foot- as I understand it.

The Hm group say there are no lever forces. Well whatever forces that occur at the lamellae may not be “lever forces” but are more accurately described as shear forces. Shear forces at the lamellae bone interface.

They do show some shocking images of feet that in my opinion are not good at all.
The heels are too high for a start and I agree they need to be reduced. I believe according to my training, slow reduction.

The flipper toe in my opinion and my training is not helping the horse.

Caveat I’m not a professional trimmer. I never said I was. I study the foots anatomy and biomechanics, and function.

I trim my own horses and help out friends and people asking me to help.

Hope this helps.

I’m trying to drop off this thread as I really dont want the heartache that I get from HM.

thank you for your reply.

I hope that you won't leave this thread. I don't think anyone is giving you heartache and I certainly hope they are not.

I totally understand what you are saying about the long toe and SHEAR is a very good word. I haven't thought of using that word.

What I really don't understand though is how on earth or even why HM dreamt up the idea of leaving this long toe. Not just a slightly long toe but a very long toe being left very deliberately. I'm not sure what it achieves and no one (other than the HM people who totally lose me) seem able to explain it.

 

[smolmaus]

The Hm group say there are no lever forces. Well whatever forces that occur at the lamellae may not be “lever forces” but are more accurately described as shear forces. Shear forces at the lamellae bone interface.

I hope you don't mind but I am waiting for a program to run so I drew this out. Feel free to tell me I am wrong and that engineers shouldn't be getting involved

 

[paddy555]

I hope you don't mind but I am waiting for a program to run so I drew this out. Feel free to tell me I am wrong and that engineers shouldn't be getting involved
View attachment 151253

https://www.facebook.com/garry.hinton.9/posts/pfbid035tvnXFWhvwYzEfj5Kg4Bq9q5yHabT28DniaRjnvWX1ouNTyAi3fjCNUgpyAszhnEl

as an engineer if we call this foot (garry's link above) stretched, sheared, (not your shear above), pull on white line, lever forces, very overlong toe etc is there any reason why it is desirable?

 

[smolmaus]

https://www.facebook.com/garry.hinton.9/posts/pfbid035tvnXFWhvwYzEfj5Kg4Bq9q5yHabT28DniaRjnvWX1ouNTyAi3fjCNUgpyAszhnEl

as an engineer if we call this foot (garry's link above) stretched, sheared, (not your shear above), pull on white line, lever forces, very overlong toe etc is there any reason why it is desirable?

I just enjoyed drawing out what I thought was an interesting little mechanism of what I thought Hoofstudies was suggesting.

That post uses the language of mechanics but it doesn't make a lot of sense when combined with "Mother Natures perfect design" and the slippery slope fallacy in point 5.

 

[ClipClopCommander]

Sorry I have been working non-stop for a few days so just now catching up.

It’s clear this discussion about HM has strong opinions about them, yet I’m not sure many, if any, have really studied them judging from the comments you’re making.

One thing that stands out is that no one here, including even yourself @Hoofstudies, has been able to provide any credible evidence to counter what HM is saying.

You say that many of you have extensive knowledge about hoof care, but I see no counter arguments, just horror at the aesthetics of their rehabbing feet. And that’s a glaring issue if you’re going to discuss them, because if you have no counter arguments, it just sounds like a classic thread of ‘bad-mouthing’ someone or something because it doesn’t align with your taught beliefs.

All this HM distraction is just tit for tat, and really needs to stop now don’t you think? @Hoofstudies, why not try to find out what HM are actually saying, because their case studies are tremendously successful, and I’m not sure you are fully aware of that.

If you truly believe their methods are flawed, as they said in their post about you, where are your case studies, X-rays, and rehabs to prove them wrong?

You can kind of see it from their perspective, there you are saying they are layman etc yet you have nothing to back that up?

That would surely be the best approach if it is bothering you that badly. Because their approach consistently produces good results from the many, many owners showcasing them in their Phoenix group for all to see.

Right now, HM and GTL are presenting the evidence - success stories, X-rays, and real-world cases - and it’s hard to argue with that unless you can show something equally compelling.

The biomechanics of the hoof aren’t about opinion are they? They’re grounded in biology and physics. I am a scientist, a practicing biochemist as was, and biology doesn’t behave the way we often expect it to.

It seems what bothers most of you is the appearance of their rehabbing feet, which ultimately are short lived. The alternative is as they say to ‘toe-chop’ and when you’ve seen the countless hideous stories flooding into their Phoenix group of the damage to the coffin bone and the subsequent suffering, its enough to stop one taking the toe off ever again.

Surely it’s not just about the appearance of the hoof; it’s about how the forces move through it and how the horse’s body responds.

I’m just an onlooker, feeling like a bit of balance needs to be made here, but knowing the sentiment in this thread, it’s likely falling on deaf ears.

Instead of focusing on personal grievances or what this group or that group said, maybe it’s time to shift the discussion to actual evidence. If you believe HM is wrong, the best way to prove it is with credible data, not comments or opinions. Right now, this constant back-and-forth seems more about egos than horses.

If we really care about improving hoof health, and frankly it is rather shocking out there, then we need to let the evidence speak for itself and focus on finding solutions rather than arguing over methods. Right now, HM most definitely do seem to be winning that race, and are definitely not going away anytime soon judging from what is going on and the support they have from their Phoenix group, and big names such as GTL and Becks Nairn.

 

[paddy555]

Sorry I have been working non-stop for a few days so just now catching up.

It’s clear this discussion about HM has strong opinions about them, yet I’m not sure many, if any, have really studied them judging from the comments you’re making.

One thing that stands out is that no one here, including even yourself @Hoofstudies, has been able to provide any credible evidence to counter what HM is saying.

You say that many of you have extensive knowledge about hoof care, but I see no counter arguments, just horror at the aesthetics of their rehabbing feet. And that’s a glaring issue if you’re going to discuss them, because if you have no counter arguments, it just sounds like a classic thread of ‘bad-mouthing’ someone or something because it doesn’t align with your taught beliefs.

All this HM distraction is just tit for tat, and really needs to stop now don’t you think? @Hoofstudies, why not try to find out what HM are actually saying, because their case studies are tremendously successful, and I’m not sure you are fully aware of that.

If you truly believe their methods are flawed, as they said in their post about you, where are your case studies, X-rays, and rehabs to prove them wrong?

You can kind of see it from their perspective, there you are saying they are layman etc yet you have nothing to back that up?

That would surely be the best approach if it is bothering you that badly. Because their approach consistently produces good results from the many, many owners showcasing them in their Phoenix group for all to see.

Right now, HM and GTL are presenting the evidence - success stories, X-rays, and real-world cases - and it’s hard to argue with that unless you can show something equally compelling.

The biomechanics of the hoof aren’t about opinion are they? They’re grounded in biology and physics. I am a scientist, a practicing biochemist as was, and biology doesn’t behave the way we often expect it to.

It seems what bothers most of you is the appearance of their rehabbing feet, which ultimately are short lived. The alternative is as they say to ‘toe-chop’ and when you’ve seen the countless hideous stories flooding into their Phoenix group of the damage to the coffin bone and the subsequent suffering, its enough to stop one taking the toe off ever again.

Surely it’s not just about the appearance of the hoof; it’s about how the forces move through it and how the horse’s body responds.

I’m just an onlooker, feeling like a bit of balance needs to be made here, but knowing the sentiment in this thread, it’s likely falling on deaf ears.

Instead of focusing on personal grievances or what this group or that group said, maybe it’s time to shift the discussion to actual evidence. If you believe HM is wrong, the best way to prove it is with credible data, not comments or opinions. Right now, this constant back-and-forth seems more about egos than horses.

If we really care about improving hoof health, and frankly it is rather shocking out there, then we need to let the evidence speak for itself and focus on finding solutions rather than arguing over methods. Right now, HM most definitely do seem to be winning that race, and are definitely not going away anytime soon judging from what is going on and the support they have from their Phoenix group, and big names such as GTL and Becks Nairn.

there is plenty of evidence out there. I can think of 25 years worth of case studies. It is simply the case that you have not bothered to look any further than HM. Go and look on other sites and in some of the many books and you tube videos. Learn other methods then you will be in a position to make an evaluation based on fact. ie your own actual opinion rather than just what HM tells you to think. Why are you so narrow minded that you don't seem to want to do this? Why not work your way through hoofrehab.com for example. Lots of info for you on there.

It has nothing to do with appearance BTW. It is about force and leverage and most of all comfort for the horse. Can you give us an explanation as to why the HM method is preferable for laminitics over other methods? Why is leaving the toe long better than taking it back. What are it's advantages?

You think their case studies are tremendously successful simply because they tell you they are. You talk about support from big names. Find me one, just one, respected farrier/vet/trimmer who supports HM. I haven't found a single one.

HM posts what they want on their groups and her followers believe her. .

It's not falling on deaf ears. It is the comments from an armchair warrior (there are lots on the HM sites)repeating what they have been told which is falling on the ears of people who have done it in real life and know the problems.




I don't know about anyone else but what I find most interesting is that this is such a fascinating example of a cult and it's followers.