barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.

[Apizz2019]

I must add to my earlier post, so as not to appear disingenuous as I have mentioned it on this thread that I have first hand experience of a recommended trimmer by a certain group who butchered our ponys feet and made a poor situation far worse for a fellow liverys horse, however, that's my experience and I took it as a learning - an experience never to repeat.

I did not plaster it all over Faceache. I left it there and decided their way wasn't for me. That's not to say I agree with some groups ways of thinking/methods, but pony and I lived and we learned.

Information can be shared in a way where even if everyone doesn't agree, everyone can, and should, try to find some common ground.

 

[paddy555]

I agree. I am a lurker too. This whole thread was started on the 27th August and has been a complete bashing of HM & GTL, with some very personal attacks. Then the moment HM come out and say their piece in retaliation (whether that was right or not) the world loses its head and calls them bullies? I mean... really? Do you think they don't see threads like this, and you all have a right to just go piling on? Frankly, as APIZZ said, it's all very divisive.

Take a long hard look at yourselves all you who have had a hand in bringing this situation to the fore. There is only so much a person can seemingly take. I follow both pages and what I see is constant goading from one page (The Study of the Equine Hoof), whether HM are mentioned or not, but it is always intimated. When those who comment then all pile in and giggle and scoff at the 'barefoot group that shall not be mentioned' the comments are left. It seems from an onlooker, that whenever HM are mentioned, or at least very obviously referred to, the comments go wild and the engagement takes off.

And not let us all forget, as Barbara Unwin said, the appalling, hideous language that came out of the states calling HM 'see you next thursdays' and HoofStudies shared it on her page - as did so many all over the internet. Did anyone stop to think how hurtful that was to the person it was directed at?

Whether you agree with what HM are saying or not, to be honest, I feel more supportive of them right now for staying quiet whilst all this was going on and now they've popped, all of you here and on FB seem to be incredulous. Coming from a media background myself, I see no case to put forward to lawyers by HoofStudies because with all the evidence of goading HM must have (no doubt they took screen shots), I'm sure no lawyer worth his salt will be interested.

Anyway, whoever or whatever you believe, threads like this only serve to push, poke and goad. You are all responsible for this situation. There is a word for it. Hypocrite.

Many new people who come onto this forum introduce themselves. Anyway, welcome Clip Clop Commander. Love the name.

I started this thread. I did it deliberately so that it would come up both on here and hopefully on google searches. I hoped it would point out to any newbies to barefoot on here to think before they decided to join a cult.

The same with other searches.
I think that HM are quite capable of standing up for themselves. I have seen some of their replies to barefoot farriers and indeed barefoot experts over the months I bothered to look at it. I'm afraid they don't seem able to debate anything or consider other points of view.

So yes this thread was intended to warn people and I am totally responsible for starting it. If it makes even one person new to BF think then excellent.

I would ask is it likely that all barefoot farriers, trimmers, researchers, Bowker, Rooney and all the many of the rest of them, including of course vets are wrong and HM is right? Really??

I haven't read the later posts on this thread so far.

I have no idea who Barbara Unwin is and none of us here can govern language coming out of the states.
Perhaps however if people continue to severely criticise a method they may actually have a point.

 

[ClipClopCommander]

I must add to my earlier post, so as not to appear disingenuous as I have mentioned it on this thread that I have first hand experience of a recommended trimmer by a certain group who butchered our ponys feet and made a poor situation far worse for a fellow liverys horse, however, that's my experience and I took it as a learning - an experience never to repeat.

I did not plaster it all over Faceache. I left it there and decided their way wasn't for me. That's not to say I agree with some groups ways of thinking/methods, but pony and I lived and we learned.

Information can be shared in a way where even if everyone doesn't agree, everyone can, and should, try to find some common ground.

Are you referring to HM because I would be surprised if they 'butchered' feet, as their modus operandi is most definitely not to remove foot - they leave balanced feet with toes in play don't they? From what I can see on their page and group, the number of horses coming in with removed toes, completely rasped away, is off the scale.

 

[ClipClopCommander]

Many new people who come onto this forum introduce themselves. Anyway, welcome Clip Clop Commander. Love the name.

I started this thread. I did it deliberately so that it would come up both on here and hopefully on google searches. I hoped it would point out to any newbies to barefoot on here to think before they decided to join a cult.

The same with other searches.
I think that HM are quite capable of standing up for themselves. I have seen some of their replies to barefoot farriers and indeed barefoot experts over the months I bothered to look at it. I'm afraid they don't seem able to debate anything or consider other points of view.

So yes this thread was intended to warn people and I am totally responsible for starting it. If it makes even one person new to BF think then excellent.

I would ask is it likely that all barefoot farriers, trimmers, researchers, Bowker, Rooney and all the many of the rest of them, including of course vets are wrong and HM is right? Really??

I haven't read the later posts on this thread so far.

I have no idea who Barbara Unwin is and none of us here can govern language coming out of the states.
Perhaps however if people continue to severely criticise a method they may actually have a point.

It’s disappointing to see the term ‘cult’ being thrown around, why again resort to name-calling? This thread was clearly started to dissuade people from exploring HM, do you have first hand experience of their work? Using inflammatory language without credible evidence. That’s not fair debate, it’s again an attempt to discredit.

From what I have seen, and again this is me taking the time to weigh up the many posts daily on their Phoenix group, there is a growing body of evidence that they are right when it comes to the state of hoof care in the world. The stories, photos and x-rays that come piling in are at times very shocking. I think before this group was started these relentlous types of images were never really exposed to the world, and in their group it is. This isn't HM going out there and finding these people, these are people turning up from all corners of the earth desperate. The responses from their team are consistent and kind, nothing like the pictures people paint here. I would wonder if anyone on this thread is in their group.

Different opinions of course are what shape the world, but we must be very wary of quoting Bowker, Ramey, Rooney (who actually does concur with quite a bit of what HM says), because their 'science' is based very much on data born out of cadaver studies. Ramey had some success rehabbing, but so do HM. Their approach in fact is not that different. The only difference I can see is that Ramey removed the toe quoting lever forces and HM leave the toe pillar in place. Also, one thing I do note, is that HM are forever asking for x-rays from owners so they can help manage their expectations.

Truly, I really have to say, as someone who is watching this whole thing unfold, your assertions that 'people' continually criticise them, I would ask you, who are those people? They are people who are not in that group I would wonder? Because the owners in that group are posting up success after success.

The question isn’t whether everyone else is ‘wrong,’ but whether we can challenge outdated methods to save more horses, and our evidence shows we can. There are hoof care pros, and vets I might add, in that group who are agreeing with HM.

Make up your own mind based on facts, not sensationalist labels. Isn't it time everyone moved beyond the name-calling and focus on what truly matters: helping horses?

p.s. Commander was an old horse of mine - my kids used to call him 'Clip Clop' when they were little

 

[ClipClopCommander]

*relentless

 

[nutjob]

I agree. I am a lurker too. This whole thread was started on the 27th August and has been a complete bashing of HM & GTL, with some very personal attacks. Then the moment HM come out and say their piece in retaliation (whether that was right or not) the world loses its head and calls them bullies? I mean... really? Do you think they don't see threads like this, and you all have a right to just go piling on? Frankly, as APIZZ said, it's all very divisive.

Take a long hard look at yourselves all you who have had a hand in bringing this situation to the fore. There is only so much a person can seemingly take. I follow both pages and what I see is constant goading from one page (The Study of the Equine Hoof), whether HM are mentioned or not, but it is always intimated. When those who comment then all pile in and giggle and scoff at the 'barefoot group that shall not be mentioned' the comments are left. It seems from an onlooker, that whenever HM are mentioned, or at least very obviously referred to, the comments go wild and the engagement takes off.

And not let us all forget, as Barbara Unwin said, the appalling, hideous language that came out of the states calling HM 'see you next thursdays' and HoofStudies shared it on her page - as did so many all over the internet. Did anyone stop to think how hurtful that was to the person it was directed at?

Whether you agree with what HM are saying or not, to be honest, I feel more supportive of them right now for staying quiet whilst all this was going on and now they've popped, all of you here and on FB seem to be incredulous. Coming from a media background myself, I see no case to put forward to lawyers by HoofStudies because with all the evidence of goading HM must have (no doubt they took screen shots), I'm sure no lawyer worth his salt will be interested.

Anyway, whoever or whatever you believe, threads like this only serve to push, poke and goad. You are all responsible for this situation. There is a word for it. Hypocrite.

Sadly for people who are more used to operating in the cultish environment of facebook, on this forum everybody is entitled to have their own opinion and to express it here. Unfortunately HM and GTL operate with a delete and block approach so nobody is able to debate or discuss in that medium what is wrong with their methods, so it appears from their own fb pages that everybody agrees entirely with everything they do. Obviously it's going to be distressing for them to be unable to censure people on this forum who have opposing views.

I am certainly grateful for @paddy555 for bringing this up. I had never heard of it previously but I think as a horse owner it's something I need to be aware of. I certainly remember the horror stories resulting from practitioners of the Strasser method. Other people may feel that if they have had a negative experience they shouldn't share it but that's their own choice. Other people choose to share to try to prevent the same negative thing happening to others.

I haven't previously contributed to this thread but I'm certainly happy to share some of the responsibility for promoting an open discussion. I guess this makes me a hypocrite, oh dear.

 

[Apizz2019]

Are you referring to HM because I would be surprised if they 'butchered' feet, as their modus operandi is most definitely not to remove foot - they leave balanced feet with toes in play don't they? From what I can see on their page and group, the number of horses coming in with removed toes, completely rasped away, is off the scale.

I was recommended a trimmer by a group associated with HM. I don't know if this trimmer is a HM trimmer. This was in 2021.

Feet were butchered, literally, and pony was v sore. His heels and toes were hacked at, and his sole pared away way too much for my liking. It wasn't pretty and I put a stop to it, although it took my brain a while to comprehend what I was watching.

It wasn't what I see on the HM pages. I see low heels and long toes there.

 

[Barbara Unwin]

I was recommended a trimmer by a group associated with HM. I don't know if this trimmer is a HM trimmer. This was in 2021.

Feet were butchered, literally, and pony was v sore. His heels and toes were hacked at, and his sole pared away way too much for my liking. It wasn't pretty and I put a stop to it, although it took my brain a while to comprehend what I was watching.

It wasn't what I see on the HM pages. I see low heels and long toes there.

Right, so your pony was trimmed in a way totally contrary to the HM method but the trimmer *might* in some way be affiliated with HM?

 

[paddy555]

The truth doesn’t need sensationalism or veiled attacks, it just needs consistency and evidence.

As I said the jury is still out whether HM are right or not, but from what I see, the evidence is now piling up and what they are saying about standards in hoof care really does seem to be true, it’s very poor worldwide. There are some absolutely shocking examples of suffering equines on their Phoenix page and the ones that can be turned around are getting better.

It’s time to move beyond the woe-is-me narrative. Disagreeing with a method or philosophy is one thing; using that disagreement to launch personal or professional attacks is something else entirely. The line is crossed when actions are taken not to inform or educate, but to discredit, divide, and harm.

I haven't seen the swearing and have no idea who said what.

moving onto the actual trim. You say the jury is still out but evidence is now piling up.
What evidence? where it is?
If HM is saying that all info learnt till now by hoof care professionals, vets etc is wrong then evidence is needed to prove it is wrong and that correction is needed.

She must be able to provide evidence that is capable of scrutiny by professionals, proper scientific experiments with controls demonstrating that her methods are correct.
I cannot see that anywhere. Evidence to change the way of thinking is not a few pics on your own FB page it is evidence that stands up to proper examination.

I haven't really noticed any pics on her pages which contradict her beliefs. Cases always go wrong, there are always some failures. We need to see successes and failures to evaluate it.,

Any criticism of her comments or pictures simply produce aggressive comments from either her or her followers. Not discussion and explanation.


her comments are liked/agreed by her followers as they simply don't know any better. If they see the same thing repeated many times it becomes truth to them. It is not. It is simply one person's view which may be right or wrong. Her followers look at her pics and agree with them. I suspect that many have no idea whatsoever of what they are seeing and are simply unable to evaluate it.

I totally agree with your final para. I would suggest you post it on the HM group and hopefully then useful discussion and evaluation could take place,

I do have one final question for you. That is vets.

Looking at the long toes, left deliberately long. Those horses have been very ill and must have been seen by their vets. The vets must have taken X rays so they certainly saw them.
I cannot think that any of the horse vets that I know would condone the toes left to that extravagant length. Their advice would be to trim the toes.
So when this happens what then? Do they ignore the vet? does the vet continue to act? do they get rid of the vet and go it alone?
I am really curious on that point, obviously dare not ask on HGM FB as I can already imagine the aggressive reply so perhaps you can help? How many UK vets support this method of trimming?

.

 

[Barbara Unwin]

Sadly for people who are more used to operating in the cultish environment of facebook, on this forum everybody is entitled to have their own opinion and to express it here. Unfortunately HM and GTL operate with a delete and block approach so nobody is able to debate or discuss in that medium what is wrong with their methods, so it appears from their own fb pages that everybody agrees entirely with everything they do. Obviously it's going to be distressing for them to be unable to censure people on this forum who have opposing views.

I am certainly grateful for @paddy555 for bringing this up. I had never heard of it previously but I think as a horse owner it's something I need to be aware of. I certainly remember the horror stories resulting from practitioners of the Strasser method. Other people may feel that if they have had a negative experience they shouldn't share it but that's their own choice. Other people choose to share to try to prevent the same negative thing happening to others.

I haven't previously contributed to this thread but I'm certainly happy to share some of the responsibility for promoting an open discussion. I guess this makes me a hypocrite, oh dear.

You're right—HM probably does delete comments, but it’s likely to minimize confusion. There are plenty of barefoot groups where various methods are debated, and that’s great; readers can draw their own conclusions. However, HM instructors openly acknowledge they’ve "been there, done that, bought the T-shirt" when it comes to practices like chopped toes and high heels. Now, having learned from those mistakes, they’ve adopted an approach that truly delivers results.

It’s essentially: "We’ve made all the mistakes, so you don’t have to." Therefore, I think it’s entirely reasonable for them to want their group to focus solely on their proven methods, free from conflicting theories or advice that might dilute the message and confuse equine owners even more.

 

[Apizz2019]

It’s disappointing to see the term ‘cult’ being thrown around, why again resort to name-calling? This thread was clearly started to dissuade people from exploring HM, do you have first hand experience of their work? Using inflammatory language without credible evidence. That’s not fair debate, it’s again an attempt to discredit.

From what I have seen, and again this is me taking the time to weigh up the many posts daily on their Phoenix group, there is a growing body of evidence that they are right when it comes to the state of hoof care in the world. The stories, photos and x-rays that come piling in are at times very shocking. I think before this group was started these relentlous types of images were never really exposed to the world, and in their group it is. This isn't HM going out there and finding these people, these are people turning up from all corners of the earth desperate. The responses from their team are consistent and kind, nothing like the pictures people paint here. I would wonder if anyone on this thread is in their group.

Different opinions of course are what shape the world, but we must be very wary of quoting Bowker, Ramey, Rooney (who actually does concur with quite a bit of what HM says), because their 'science' is based very much on data born out of cadaver studies. Ramey had some success rehabbing, but so do HM. Their approach in fact is not that different. The only difference I can see is that Ramey removed the toe quoting lever forces and HM leave the toe pillar in place. Also, one thing I do note, is that HM are forever asking for x-rays from owners so they can help manage their expectations.

Truly, I really have to say, as someone who is watching this whole thing unfold, your assertions that 'people' continually criticise them, I would ask you, who are those people? They are people who are not in that group I would wonder? Because the owners in that group are posting up success after success.

The question isn’t whether everyone else is ‘wrong,’ but whether we can challenge outdated methods to save more horses, and our evidence shows we can. There are hoof care pros, and vets I might add, in that group who are agreeing with HM.

Make up your own mind based on facts, not sensationalist labels. Isn't it time everyone moved beyond the name-calling and focus on what truly matters: helping horses?

p.s. Commander was an old horse of mine - my kids used to call him 'Clip Clop' when they were little

The very definition of a cult is a system or group of people who practice excessive devotion to a figure, object, or belief system. Its characteristics include having a leader/s that preach an explicit belief system or ideology and is followed by unquestioning believers.

And that's what most of this is, unfortunately - beliefs without hard facts and supporting scientific evidence.

I've no doubt there have been many successes with these methods but I think the use of the term 'cult' is fitting for these groups, based purely on the behaviours of the leaders and followers, although I understand the term itself has derogatory connotations.

 

[Sanversera]

Hoofing Marvellous and Gawsworth Track Livery are once again attacking another hoof care professional and riling up their followers to do the same. So much anger and hatred coming from these pages.

I used to think that Gawsworth was an impressive setup, but the person who runs it seems to go to great lengths to start arguments with other people and generally behaves in an unprofessional manner online. The conduct of HM and GW is no different from shouty vet - actively encouraging their followers to leave vile messages on other professional's pages, blocking anyone who questions their narrative, and generally being horrible towards anyone who doesn't worship at their alter.

They will not allow their bad behaviour to be called out on their own pages, so I think we need to keep highlighting it here.

Frankly their conduct is embarrassing, like a couple of school bullies.

Completely agree.i used to follow gtl but don't now. Someone who always thinks they are right and can't be open to genuine criticism isn't someone who I would want to be looking after my horse.

 

[Apizz2019]

Right, so your pony was trimmed in a way totally contrary to the HM method but the trimmer *might* in some way be affiliated with HM?

The trimmer was recommended by one of the central figures of the BHM, who I now know are the very same people as HM, which I did not realise until quite recently.

I said I do not know if this trimmer is a HM trimmer, as in if this person is recommended by them now.

I've had no direct dealings with HM, only the BHM, and that was in 2021.

 

[Apizz2019]

To add, in 2021, images being shown by BHM as being the right way are as attached - this image is from the BHM page.

The third image appears, to me, to be not dissimilar to what they say is the right way, but in 2021 this was being touted as being the wrong way and the poor hoof shape being caused by shoes. To my novice eye, the third image appears to be very much in line with what they are now promoting, long toes etc.

N.b. I'm not an expert and happily stand corrected if I'm talking utter poppycock, so please feel free to tell me off!

 

[paddy555]

You're right—HM probably does delete comments, but it’s likely to minimize confusion. There are plenty of barefoot groups where various methods are debated, and that’s great; readers can draw their own conclusions. However, HM instructors openly acknowledge they’ve "been there, done that, bought the T-shirt" when it comes to practices like chopped toes and high heels. Now, having learned from those mistakes, they’ve adopted an approach that truly delivers results.

It’s essentially: "We’ve made all the mistakes, so you don’t have to." Therefore, I think it’s entirely reasonable for them to want their group to focus solely on their proven methods, free from conflicting theories or advice that might dilute the message and confuse equine owners even more.

your post could be read in a totally opposite way.

Comments are deleted. We know that. Funnily some of those that are deleted are from VERY experienced professionals. Are they really deleted to minimize confusion or simply because those opposing views are not acceptable and it is not helpful for the followers to learn anything different. To my mind anyone considering Barefoot should be examining and considering all methods and ideas. Otherwise how can they tell if what they are hearing on a single method FB page is right or wrong.
Unfortunately readers can draw their own conclusions is not true. Sadly this is a cult. I have even seen that word on their FB pages so even they acknowledge it. That is not good. We had a cult before and it caused a LOT of harm. They have been comments that US posters have been aggressive/swearing. The US suffered very badly as a result of the Strasser cult. They were told a lot of lies. It took a long time to resolve. (as it did here). I would guess t hey do not want BF to be tainted by another cult that is not open to examination.



We don't know if the approach truly delivers results. Simply because it has not been subject to independent scrutiny. Their methods are not proven. That is the whole problem. Many very experienced people think they may well not be.

It is not a case of confusing owners but a case that they should understand this method is not open to scrutiny.

as a HM supporter can you answer the question I asked in post 219 about vets please?

 

[paddy555]

To add, in 2021, images being shown by BHM as being the right way are as attached - this image is from the BHM page.

The third image appears, to me, to be not dissimilar to what they say is the right way, but in 2021 this was being touted as being the wrong way and the poor hoof shape being caused by shoes. To my novice eye, the third image appears to be very much in line with what they are now promoting, long toes etc.

N.b. I'm not an expert and happily stand corrected if I'm talking utter poppycock, so please feel free to tell me off!

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your trimmer. Can you give me a link to the BHM page please?

To my mind the 3rd image that you are talking about is not what HM are promoting. The 3rd image simply demonstrates what can happen in a shod horse. It show the contraction in the heels. Look how wide apart the heels are in the first unshod pic and how "squished in" they are in the 3rd pic. That is what I believe it is demonstrating. And yes the toes are long in the 3rd pic. I cannot speak for anyone else but if I had the 3rd pic foot my aim would be to bring those toes back. (in case of confusion that most definitely does not mean "chopping" them )

I hope that I have understood what you are saying, apologies if not.

 

[nutjob]

Therefore, I think it’s entirely reasonable for them to want their group to focus solely on their proven methods, free from conflicting theories or advice that might dilute the message and confuse equine owners even more.

Equine owners are not all as easily confused as you take us for, this is quite insulting actually. Removing all other view points may well simplify things but it doesn't make the remaining view point correct. If 100% of people on a fb page all say the same thing they may still be wrong and may represent a tiny percentage of all professionals in that field. Especially if all alternate views have been deleted. Potentially there could be 99% of experts in the field with qualifications, published research and decades of experience whose views have been deleted / ignored and whose reputation the fb cult have tried to trash. There are still people who are more interested in unbiased research, facts and the truth and who don't want or need to have things simplified down to one approach.

Anyone whose easily confused or doesn't want to consider alternate views can make there way back to the HM fb but here, luckily we can debate different methodologies and share different experiences and opinions.

 

[Apizz2019]

You're right—HM probably does delete comments, but it’s likely to minimize confusion. There are plenty of barefoot groups where various methods are debated, and that’s great; readers can draw their own conclusions. However, HM instructors openly acknowledge they’ve "been there, done that, bought the T-shirt" when it comes to practices like chopped toes and high heels. Now, having learned from those mistakes, they’ve adopted an approach that truly delivers results.

It’s essentially: "We’ve made all the mistakes, so you don’t have to." Therefore, I think it’s entirely reasonable for them to want their group to focus solely on their proven methods, free from conflicting theories or advice that might dilute the message and confuse equine owners even more.

That makes perfect sense and most likely ties in with my experience as in that is what they were doing then, not now.

I was also incorrect about the date of our trim. It was August 2020. Being horse bankrupt, I still have the same phone and searched my WhatsApp for the message I sent to the trimmer expressing concerns about the trim.

 

[Apizz2019]

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your trimmer. Can you give me a link to the BHM page please?

To my mind the 3rd image that you are talking about is not what HM are promoting. The 3rd image simply demonstrates what can happen in a shod horse. It show the contraction in the heels. Look how wide apart the heels are in the first unshod pic and how "squished in" they are in the 3rd pic. That is what I believe it is demonstrating. And yes the toes are long in the 3rd pic. I cannot speak for anyone else but if I had the 3rd pic foot my aim would be to bring those toes back. (in case of confusion that most definitely does not mean "chopping" them )

I hope that I have understood what you are saying, apologies if not.

At this point, I'm confused myself

I think the third image looks similar to the hoof shape being promoted now as in long toes. I didn't go so far as to look at the contracted heels if I'm honest.

I can't paste the link to the page for reasons unknown but if you put BHM in the search bar on Faceache, it will come up.

Thank you for being kind.

 

[ester]

Must be 10/15 years since a barefoot thread kicked off

 

[paddy555]

Must be 10/15 years since a barefoot thread kicked off

nope, 2000.


It started, at least for me, with a group of UK people on a yahoo group called barefoot UK. They had all had a Strasser trained trimmer and they were comparing notes on how much their feet were bleeding (seat of corn) after the trim. They were, suprisingly, not unhappy about this. In fact they seemed delighted. Their feet were well on their way to abscessing and therefore becoming proper barefoot horses.
my barefoot feet had never abscessed so they were not regarded as proper barefoot horses and I was not regarded as being "one of the gang"

After that it moved onto the IHDG group and then it REALLY kicked off. HM is just small fry compared to that.

 

[ester]

I meant here not elsewhere I’ve only been here since 2008 and remember them

 

[Fieldlife]

Hoofing Marvellous and Gawsworth Track Livery are once again attacking another hoof care professional and riling up their followers to do the same. So much anger and hatred coming from these pages.

I used to think that Gawsworth was an impressive setup, but the person who runs it seems to go to great lengths to start arguments with other people and generally behaves in an unprofessional manner online. The conduct of HM and GW is no different from shouty vet - actively encouraging their followers to leave vile messages on other professional's pages, blocking anyone who questions their narrative, and generally being horrible towards anyone who doesn't worship at their alter.

They will not allow their bad behaviour to be called out on their own pages, so I think we need to keep highlighting it here.

Frankly their conduct is embarrassing, like a couple of school bullies.

I am pretty horrified at what I have seen from HM generally on FB, FB groups etc.

BUT as far as I can see, the Gawsworth Track Livery rehab horses (that use a HM trimmer) and follow and HM approach do seem to improve, despite the long toe, and the rehab horses' feet do seem to return to normal parameters. They do share progress updates and X-rays.

How do people explain this?

(Disclaimer my trimmer takes a short toe approach, and is the polar opposite to HM)

 

[Apizz2019]

I am pretty horrified at what I have seen from HM generally on FB, FB groups etc.

BUT as far as I can see, the Gawsworth Track Livery rehab horses (that use a HM trimmer) and follow and HM approach do seem to improve, despite the long toe, and the rehab horses' feet do seem to return to normal parameters. They do share progress updates and X-rays.

How do people explain this?

(Disclaimer my trimmer takes a short toe approach, and is the polar opposite to HM)

I agree, there do seem to be a lot of successes which are frequently discussed and showcased, so there must be a method behind what some of us see as madness. However, there does appear to be a distinct lack of unsuccessful cases (from what I've seen and again I stand to be corrected), which either means there are none and they have a 100% success rate, or they don't share poor outcomes for very good reason.

 

[Fieldlife]

I agree, there do seem to be a lot of successes which are frequently discussed and showcased, so there must be a method behind what some of us see as madness. However, there does appear to be a distinct lack of unsuccessful cases (from what I've seen and again I stand to be corrected), which either means there are none and they have a 100% success rate, or they don't share poor outcomes for very good reason.

There certainly was the horse ~(that I used to be at same yard as) that was a rehab livery, and ended up PTS as his abscessing was so bad, and so severe. But there do seem to be lots of Gawsworth Track Livery documented photographed success stories. And assuming there are 20 odd horses at the track, all trimmed the HM way, presumably most are sound, or getting sound, and if there were repeated catastrophic failures, large numbers of crippled horses wouldnt we hear?

 

[Apizz2019]

There certainly was the horse ~(that I used to be at same yard as) that was a rehab livery, and ended up PTS as his abscessing was so bad, and so severe. But there do seem to be lots of Gawsworth Track Livery documented photographed success stories. And assuming there are 20 odd horses at the track, all trimmed the HM way, presumably most are sound, or getting sound, and if there were repeated catastrophic failures, large numbers of crippled horses wouldnt we hear?

Yes, I saw that thread. I wasn't sure what to make of it to be honest and who was at fault. Very sad.

True, I guess it must work for Gawsworth as they all seem to do well.

It would be great if HM could pull some stats together, although I appreciate no two horses are the same.

 

[ClipClopCommander]

It’s clear from this thread that there’s a lot of misunderstanding about what HM does and why. I'm guessing that you are basing your information on some of the snippets you have seen on Facebook and perhaps being influence by other pages such as the one from HoofStudies. I would also imagine, that like me, most of you commenting here have little to no hoof care experience? This then is naturally going to lead to confusion and scepticism. As someone who’s followed HM for a while, and spent quite a bit of this year in their Phoenix group, I’ve seen first-hand what they’re about, and it’s far from the negative image being painted here.

HM consistently shares x-rays, photos, videos, and case studies showing their real-world progress. These aren’t cherry-picked successes as is so often said of them. They openly show challenges and setbacks too. While some may dismiss this as anecdotal, the results from hundreds of horses - many deemed hopeless by vets and farriers - are a little bit hard to ignore. Real-world, repeatable success carries significant weight when it’s saving lives. And that is what drives progress, whether the equine world think it wants it or not.

I’ve learned a great deal from their live sessions and free videos in the group, where they help owners with serious hoof issues. I haven’t done one of their challenges or workshops yet, but I’m seriously considering it. They teach hundreds of people each year, and I’ve never seen complaints. You might suggest negative posts are removed, but the group doesn’t pre-approve posts, so we’d all see them if they existed. Instead, people rave about their courses, and I’ve seen countless stories of turnarounds.

Don't believe me of course, join the group and see for yourself.

The behaviour in the group is far from what I’d call a cult - it’s very supportive, educational, and solution-focused. It’s a refreshing change from the confusion and negativity in other groups that frankly are mass of conflicting advice. Many followers are experienced owners or professionals who’ve seen results first-hand. For those new to the natural way of hoof care, HM seems to take the time to educate, ensuring people can make informed decisions.

Decisions like leaving toes longer are made carefully, guided by x-rays and the horse’s specific needs. I’ve seen owners working alongside vets and navigating differing opinions, but every choice prioritises the horse’s welfare.

Now it sounds like I am head over heals with them here, I'm not, I'm still reserving judgement, but I do have to say that I have never experienced a group like their Phoenix group anywhere on FB and I've been a few!

Despite what you all are saying here, HM is open to scrutiny and encourages constructive discussion - and frequently have discussions on the threads on their group. I think if more people focused on learning and understanding their approach, rather than making assumptions, the conversation would be far more productive. At the end of the day, the goal is the same: better outcomes for horses - and right now, when you look around the internet at other hoof methods (although HM say there's isn't a method) HM is delivering on all fronts. You may not like their approach, and that's fine, but to keep belittling them as a 'cult', seems churlish when so many other groups could be called that too - including H&H forum threads sometimes.

Anyway, that's my experience, and I fear the majority of people here have made their mind up about HM before even trying to find out more information - which you need to do if you are not a hoof professional like me.

 

[Gloi]

I'm guessing that you are basing your information on some of the snippets you have seen on Facebook and perhaps being influence by other pages such as the one from HoofStudies. I would also imagine, that like me, most of you commenting here have little to no hoof care experience?

I think you are greatly underestimating a lot of the people on here.

 

[ester]

I think you are greatly underestimating a lot of the people on here.

Quite.

 

[nutjob]

I'm guessing that you are basing your information on some of the snippets you have seen on Facebook and perhaps being influence by other pages such as the one from HoofStudies.

I would say you have guessed wrongly. Most people have a far broader range of interest in educational material and influences than 2 fb pages.

I would also imagine, that like me, most of you commenting here have little to no hoof care experience? This then is naturally going to lead to confusion and scepticism.

No, I would say you are incorrect there, there are many people on this forum who have hoof care experience, possibly you are not aware or just don't value their expertise? In the main, on this thread, I don't read anyone as being confused, the majority simply disagree with you.

I do have to say that I have never experienced a group like their Phoenix group anywhere on FB and I've been a few!

Sad to say there are many such groups, not just related to barefoot.

It’s a refreshing change from the confusion and negativity in other groups that frankly are mass of conflicting advice.

Only if you want to blindly believe everything this group puts out.

For those new to the natural way of hoof care, HM seems to take the time to educate, ensuring people can make informed decisions.

Many members on this forum have decades of experience of natural hoof care. I have years of experience but no where near the knowledge level of others here.

to keep belittling them as a 'cult', seems churlish when so many other groups could be called that too

Other groups are cultish and have been discussed on this forum as such, it's a common theme on fb. Once you've identified the pattern they're easier to spot.

which you need to do if you are not a hoof professional like me.

Oh dear, you're not coming across very well, your dismissive comments about the confusion everyone else is suffering simply because they don't agree with this particular group is not doing a lot to endear it to me. You don't seem to have a very open or analytical mind at all. Your strategy seems to be to try to demean anyone who doesn't agree with you.