barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.

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I’ve only just seen this after being a bit confused about some of the comments on a post Mark Johnson shared (& wondering who the hell Ernie was)… Wow, just 😮
 
I'm troubled by the narrative being pushed that laminitis is not caused by diet, but by how the hoof is trimmed. They have stated many times that laminitis is not triggered by grass, it is caused by the hoof being trimmed 'incorrectly'. This is at odds with their advocating for grass free track systems and a hay only diet.

If laminitis is never triggered by grass, why is it more prevalent in overweight and obese horses? Why are horses with equine metabolic syndrome more likely to get laminitis if it is caused by the way the hoof is trimmed? Will a horse magically be cured of their metabolic syndrome if the hooves are trimmed using their method?

If we look at the bigger picture, it is sensible to assume that several factors can trigger laminitis, with the perfect storm being sudden fluctuations in the weather causing spikes in grass sugar levels, horses not getting enough exercise and becoming overweight, increased sugar causing general inflammation, lack of circulation in the hooves due to lack of movement and exercise.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I'm troubled by the narrative being pushed that laminitis is not caused by diet, but by how the hoof is trimmed. They have stated many times that laminitis is not triggered by grass, it is caused by the hoof being trimmed 'incorrectly'. This is at odds with their advocating for grass free track systems and a hay only diet.

If laminitis is never triggered by grass, why is it more prevalent in overweight and obese horses? Why are horses with equine metabolic syndrome more likely to get laminitis if it is caused by the way the hoof is trimmed? Will a horse magically be cured of their metabolic syndrome if the hooves are trimmed using their method?

If we look at the bigger picture, it is sensible to assume that several factors can trigger laminitis, with the perfect storm being sudden fluctuations in the weather causing spikes in grass sugar levels, horses not getting enough exercise and becoming overweight, increased sugar causing general inflammation, lack of circulation in the hooves due to lack of movement and exercise.
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I'm also wary of the idea that laminitis is caused by 'incorrect' (aka not following their specific way) trimming, how would they explain acute laminitis caused by sepsis or toxemia after a retained placenta post foaling? Surely that can't be blamed on a dodgy trim.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I'm troubled by the narrative being pushed that laminitis is not caused by diet, but by how the hoof is trimmed. They have stated many times that laminitis is not triggered by grass, it is caused by the hoof being trimmed 'incorrectly'. This is at odds with their advocating for grass free track systems and a hay only diet.

If laminitis is never triggered by grass, why is it more prevalent in overweight and obese horses? Why are horses with equine metabolic syndrome more likely to get laminitis if it is caused by the way the hoof is trimmed? Will a horse magically be cured of their metabolic syndrome if the hooves are trimmed using their method?

If we look at the bigger picture, it is sensible to assume that several factors can trigger laminitis, with the perfect storm being sudden fluctuations in the weather causing spikes in grass sugar levels, horses not getting enough exercise and becoming overweight, increased sugar causing general inflammation, lack of circulation in the hooves due to lack of movement and exercise.
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We were always taught never to turn out equines on frosty grass as could bring on laminitis….
So agree with you….
 
This is the trouble there are many confounding factors that haven't been taken into account for HM to make any claim.

For example they can say that the recovery is because of the trim but at the same time the diet and lifestyle has also changed. You need a large sample size and a statistician not a couple of case studies that haven't even been peer reviewed.

You see this all over the internet don't you "l've done this and it proves this" which misses the basic science of testing a hypothesis let alone the rest.
 
Cloball said:
This is the trouble there are many confounding factors that haven't been taken into account for HM to make any claim.

For example they can say that the recovery is because of the trim but at the same time the diet and lifestyle has also changed. You need a large sample size and a statistician not a couple of case studies that haven't even been peer reviewed.

You see this all over the internet don't you "l've done this and it proves this" which misses the basic science of testing a hypothesis let alone the rest.
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It also puts their trimmers in an awkward position, because they would need to have a 0% failure rate for this to be proven. In other words, if the trim is to blame, and only the HM trim is laminitis-proof, any horse/pony that came down with laminitis under the care of one of their practitioners would disprove their claims immediately.
 
It's clearly not the case that laminitis is only caused by bad trim/hoofcare. Laminitis is inflammation of the laminae, which can range from slight tender footedness to full blown detachment of the coffin bone from the inner hoof wall due to failure of the connection between them. At worst, sole penetration by the coffin bone. EMS horses are prone to footiness/laminitis if their insulin levels are not controlled. This is just a medical fact (and don't I know it . My EMS mare has great, healthy looking feet. A very well known remedial farrier told me last week she had the best looking hooves he'd seen in a long time, hard, strong, functional. And yet walk her on stony ground and she hobbles). Then there is steroid induced laminitis, supporting limb laminitis, concussion induced laminitis etc. Itis means inflammation. Inflammation is what produces the symptoms. I won't say a terrible trim or poor hoof care can't cause laminitis but they are far, far from the main causes.
 
Landcruiser said:
It's clearly not the case that laminitis is only caused by bad trim/hoofcare. Laminitis is inflammation of the laminae, which can range from slight tender footedness to full blown detachment of the coffin bone from the inner hoof wall due to failure of the connection between them. At worst, sole penetration by the coffin bone. EMS horses are prone to footiness/laminitis if their insulin levels are not controlled. This is just a medical fact (and don't I know it . My EMS mare has great, healthy looking feet. A very well known remedial farrier told me last week she had the best looking hooves he'd seen in a long time, hard, strong, functional. And yet walk her on stony ground and she hobbles). Then there is steroid induced laminitis, supporting limb laminitis, concussion induced laminitis etc. Itis means inflammation. Inflammation is what produces the symptoms. I won't say a terrible trim or poor hoof care can't cause laminitis but they are far, far from the main causes.
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sorry, hate to tell you but farriers are rubbish and know nothing. Neither do other barefoot trimmers, not vets, nor science (or at least not proper science only their science) nor does anyone who isn't HM. Try to keep up. :D:D:D:D



Miss_Millie said:
Will a horse magically be cured of their metabolic syndrome if the hooves are trimmed using their method?
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absolutely guaranteed. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Miss_Millie said:
It also puts their trimmers in an awkward position, because they would need to have a 0% failure rate for this to be proven. In other words, if the trim is to blame, and only the HM trim is laminitis-proof, any horse/pony that came down with laminitis under the care of one of their practitioners would disprove their claims immediately.
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they have a zero failure rate. No laminitis and apparently they have trimmed thousands and thousands of feet. I'm afraid that we all need to try to keep up with this utopia land of milk and honey. :D:D:D:D

perhaps we should all just go back to bed and realise that what we have learnt about EMS, cushings and anything else (ie the other causes) involving laminitis may be a more realistic view of the world and we need to carry on being very careful.
 
there is a series l of "lets wind up HM" ATM and below is the comment of an American vet. I think he sums it up pretty well. As you can imagine she didn't like it. :)


When we veterinarians speak of issues like laminitis we are referring to the years of trial and error and of the science and research . Our comments tend to be didactic but are measured, aware of changes in theories over time. Unfortunately your approach is very strong, almost “religious” with no quarter afforded toward debate or criticism. I am not sure you know what you are talking about. Like many snake oil purveyors…your approach could be modified and more humble, considering that you may be incorrect. Your attachment to the hoof capsule,which is not anatomically, precisely defined and your unmitigated ire toward farriers is misguided and juvenile. Long toes and low heels in this country for TBs and warm bloods has its basis from the race track,which is unfortunate.Saddlebred and Morgan’s frequently seen with characteristically very high heels dates back to the South, also unfortunate. Our QHs with borderline small feet ,which get smaller with successive shoeing is very common. Laminitis can and does affect all of them… from a variety of accumulated reasons. Overweight ponies placed in lush pastures will founder in time! To declare that all this is directly related to “bad” trimming ,ignoring and defeating the natural structural security within the hoof capsule ignores bodily reactions to vaccines,lush grass,rising body temperatures,retained placentas in mares,Insulin metabolism, excessive carbohydrates,over work and limited training and lack of fitness and obesity. I think you are short on substance and long on not so much. This is directed toward an approach which all brass band and short scientific merit. A personal opinion with no malice intended.
 
paddy555 said:
there is a series l of "lets wind up HM" ATM and below is the comment of an American vet. I think he sums it up pretty well. As you can imagine she didn't like it. :)


When we veterinarians speak of issues like laminitis we are referring to the years of trial and error and of the science and research . Our comments tend to be didactic but are measured, aware of changes in theories over time. Unfortunately your approach is very strong, almost “religious” with no quarter afforded toward debate or criticism. I am not sure you know what you are talking about. Like many snake oil purveyors…your approach could be modified and more humble, considering that you may be incorrect. Your attachment to the hoof capsule,which is not anatomically, precisely defined and your unmitigated ire toward farriers is misguided and juvenile. Long toes and low heels in this country for TBs and warm bloods has its basis from the race track,which is unfortunate.Saddlebred and Morgan’s frequently seen with characteristically very high heels dates back to the South, also unfortunate. Our QHs with borderline small feet ,which get smaller with successive shoeing is very common. Laminitis can and does affect all of them… from a variety of accumulated reasons. Overweight ponies placed in lush pastures will founder in time! To declare that all this is directly related to “bad” trimming ,ignoring and defeating the natural structural security within the hoof capsule ignores bodily reactions to vaccines,lush grass,rising body temperatures,retained placentas in mares,Insulin metabolism, excessive carbohydrates,over work and limited training and lack of fitness and obesity. I think you are short on substance and long on not so much. This is directed toward an approach which all brass band and short scientific merit. A personal opinion with no malice intended.
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A personal opinion with no malice intended!! 🤣 Well maybe a little bit :eek:🤣🤣🤣
 
I’m getting lots of posts on my Facebook account about hooves and it makes very scary reading. I have read that it’s bad trimming that causes laminitis so many times and they seem to have a cult following who are thanking them for saving horses. They showed a recent video of a fat grey pony who was struggling on the concrete, as proof of their methods they showed it cantering in a lush green field , didn’t trot it up on the concrete, I rest my case 😊
 
shortstuff99 said:
I must be the most lazy horse owner with barefoot horses going. All of mine are barefoot and they just get normal trimming from a farrier and a forage based diet and that is all I do for it 🤷.

They never have any issues, footiness etc maybe I'm just lucky 😅

I'm not sure I could be bothered with all this crazy culture nonsense.
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Mine are trimmed by a "barefoot trimmer" and have been successfully for years, I also dont follow ANY of the "barefoot" ways of looking after them. They're kept exactly the same way as they were when I used to have mine shod years ago. I dont feed any special diets etc. I love keeping mine barefoot and genuinely dont see myself ever getting any of my horses shod ever again. I think way more people should consider barefoot. But I dont feel the need to get into the whole "barefoot" culture.
 
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FieldOrnaments said:
Laminitis in wild przewalski mares.

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such a close link, unsuitable horses on unsuitable grass. If one looks at the horse that owns in the feet in post 374 you can see the same. Grossly grossly overweight. That horse was failed not only by the farrier but also by the owner and the vet. if there was one. Rotation of P3 wasn't the cause (well it obviously happened) the real cause was the initial management.
 
Honestly I think diet/body condition is probably the biggest cause of laminitis in domestic(or managed, anyway) horses. It would be really, really interesting to see a survey of veterinary histories of laminitic horses over the past, say, twenty years to see causes and how/if they've changed over time.
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Honestly I think diet/body condition is probably the biggest cause of laminitis in domestic(or managed, anyway) horses. It would be really, really interesting to see a survey of veterinary histories of laminitic horses over the past, say, twenty years to see causes and how/if they've changed over time.
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It’s bound to be, these days, in this country anyway.
In the past, road founder from excessive concussion and trotting on cobbled / hard surfaces was apparently the main cause; or inadvertent access to a grain bin.
There is an Australian vet survey of feral horses (brumbies?); can’t just remember the research team, but the largest sample of ferals conducted, which found a significant proportion of them had had, or still suffered, laminitis episodes. Quite what that shows? as horses are relatively recent introductions into Australia.
 
Landcruiser said:
Below is a post from their FB page. TBH, it makes me sad. It's so...horrible, and dismissive of everyone but themselves, and unprofessional and just plain rude and unpleasant. They are doing themselves no favours, and they are hooking people in. The first comment underneath was "Hear hear!"



🌍
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The Online World of Bullshit in Hoof Care
💩
🌍

The equine world is drowning in misinformation. Everywhere you turn, there’s someone with an opinion, a quick fix, or the next “method” in hoof care. It’s an online world of bullshit that too many people are getting sucked into.
And when they are caught out spouting rubbish they double down and turn the bullshit dial up even more… blaming everyone around them (including us) saying that it was never their fault, it’s the horse… the owner… anyone but them.
The trims in this post are the ones you won’t see on the FB pages of these online 'gurus’. These are all attached to horses who suffered - most lost their lives.
The long toes you see from HM - they are there because we are rehabbing feet caused by the kind of inappropriate hoof care you see here. We don’t hide them - we show them to try and educate you on what is going on in this shitty equine world.
We’ve all heard the phrase “No foot, no horse” a million times - it’s not just the foot - it’s the whole body, the posture, the movement - everything about the horse is impacted when the feet are neglected or misunderstood.
A crippled horse, who cannot stand up on his own feet - an x-ray showing rotation - coke-can feet - osteonecrosis of P3 - caudal hoof failure - thin soles - imbalanced hooves… ALL caused by the person you trust.
😔
The brutal truth:
The equine world is a mess. Hooves are cracked, diseased, imbalanced, and falling apart - not because horses are “badly built” or “problematic,” but because the care they receive is shockingly inadequate. Poor diets, bad management practices, and the constant reliance on chopping off toes, leaving heels high, forcing angles, terrible unnatural imbalances - with or without shoes - leaving horses struggling to cope everywhere.
Gurus...
- Blabbing on about how lever forces must be compromising the DDFT (when they’ve never EVER left a balanced rehabbing toe so they are talking out of their backsides).
Gurus...
- Blabbing on about a long toe must be tearing the laminae (when they make it out that the long toe is the problem - IT IS THE HEELS and chopping off the toe to go with it).
Gurus...
- Blabbing on about how HM are dangerous and causing suffering
😳
- are you sure? We rehab YOUR MISTAKES.
And still the bullshit comes - tidal waves of it all over social media. Instead of fixing the root cause of the problem, owners and professionals alike latch onto the latest buzzwords, treatments, or gimmicky trims. All going round and round in circles blaming everyone except themselves for inappropriate hoof care.
What we do is NOT A METHOD - it is a whole horse approach - a 'way' - the trim is letting the hooves heal by following the natural parameters of the hoof - and it works - of course it works.
WE listen to the horse, and follow their hooves - not PPT - Personal Preference Trimming.
Every few years, a self-appointed “expert” comes along, parading around the internet, falsely claiming they have the key to hoof health or a new solution to a problem they barely understand. People jump on board to listen to the steaming
💩
they spout out - and when asked to show full rehabs, with photos of every trim to show their process - they run a mile or dress it up in even more gaslighting that creates more confusion.
Where are all their free online videos and lives, open for all to comment and participate in - PUBLICLY? Let's have them then. Put your money where your mouth is... oh you daren't? We wonder why
🤥

And the cycle continues, leaving horses worse off than before. It’s getting worse. Horses are getting worse.
All the peer reviewed papers in the world on horses (yet horses are not recovering) should tell you something about those papers, who wrote them, who reviewed them, and who believes in them.

Cont below:
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They don't understand the word "Irony"
 
there was an interesting post on Gawsworth track livery fb page today. It show a pic. of 2 hooves, one untrimmed, the second after trimming. I got caught out. i. Nothing to suggest not a genuine trim on a proper horse.

went onto somewhere else and they pointed out that it was in fact a cadaver and the angle of the foot had been slightly changed. Went back to GWT who had by then decided they had better put it was a cadaver when someone had pointed it out to them.
felt a bit stupid I had been taken in. :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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and they still don't believe laminitis/rotation comes from anywhere other than poor trimming. All these vet etc articles telling us about grass/EMS/laminitis/ppid etc must be rubbish.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
they don't seem to make the connection that once the horse goes onto GTL tracks they are removing grass.

very worrying with the laminitis season fast approaching
 
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What confuses me is if this is the case and it’s farriers/trimmers
causing the issue, why are they so negative about horses eating grass.

And why does that women put pics up of her self brushing her hair and putting makeup on 🙈

Also, why are they so defensive about the hay only diet , they don’t need any other feed and they are not lacking anything .
 
Follysmum said:
What confuses me is if this is the case and it’s farriers/trimmers
causing the issue, why are they so negative about horses eating grass.

And why does that women put pics up of her self brushing her hair and putting makeup on 🙈

Also, why are they so defensive about the hay only diet , they don’t need any other feed and they are not lacking anything .
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Their cult followers seem to be jumping on almost every post on the barefoot pages I follow on FB, recommending the poster to go to HM/Phoenix Way. It's bloody terrifying. So many owners are ignorant of hoof care and metabolism etc until things start going seriously and obviously wrong...and then they have no way of knowing who is giving the credible advice and recommendations. No doubt HM are scooping up many of these uneducated (hoof etc-wise) people and recruiting them. Poor horses.
 
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