Bert is very lame.

[gallopingby]

It does sound as if the yard isn’t entirely suitable for a hardy M&M pony especially as there doesn’t seem to be the option to restrict the grazing. Although M&M s are often considered easy to look after this isn’t necessarily the case, they often require more input in summer than winter unless on poorer grazing or with the ability to live in a herd and range over a wide area. Sometimes it isn’t until a while after changes have been made that you realise how much easier things have become. I would be looking for a different yard set up and would weigh up the costs in both time and money. Even if the pony was further away the stress could be less.

 

[cauda equina]

They’re not designed to live on cow pasture. We get away with it if we’re lucky but the tradition of stabling part of the time is what stops them struggling often. Shoes also radically reduce low grade lami symptoms. It’s all cause and effect. I do speak from experience of natives and hardy good doers.

I wonder if shoeing with low grade lami symptoms is just masking the problem though?

 

[ycbm]

I bet that once you shoe him he will be sound. Is there any reason you haven’t shod him yet?
We had this with one of ours, slightly footy on and off in winter. He was new to us so I didn’t know him. People around said it looked like laminitis, but he had no history. Farrier said he needed shod. We shod him and he never looked back.
This is after weeks of stress thinking it was laminitis.

It may well have been low grade laminitis. If you think about the mechanism of laminitis, it's the delivery to the laminae of poison from the gut, in sufficient quantity to kill the laminae.

It's widely believed that the reason that shod feet grow more slowly than unshod feet is that the blood supply is restricted by shoeing preventing the pump action from the frog.

If there is less blood there will be less poison. An animal teetering on the brink of laminitis will be held back from the brink by a reduction in blood supply.
.

 

[ycbm]

Post 183 is potentially a benefit, of course, but there are 2 buts.

The first is that those gut toxins are circulating in the whole horse, not just the feet. That can't be good.

The other is that if by mechanically lifting the sole up you mask the symptoms, you're more likely to be tipped into a full on attack of laminitis without notice.
.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

This pony was blood tested for ems a while back though wasn't he and was ok?

I would just get him shod for now as the vet has advised.

As someone else has mentioned the wet weather has played havoc with hooves this year, some just don't cope and get bruised so in that instance shoes are the answer if you don't want to boot up

But I suppose an x ray wouldn't hurt to rule out laminitis.

 

[ycbm]

But I suppose an x ray wouldn't hurt to rule out laminitis.

I don't understand how x rays rule out early laminitis. They will show you rotation but it's too late by then, and surely they won't show you the early inflammation that makes the sole a bit sensitive?
.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I don't understand how x rays rule out early laminitis. They will show you rotation but it's too late by then, and surely they won't show you the early inflammation that makes the sole a bit sensitive?
.

I agree they don't always show much before rotation but the lameness has been grumbling on now so might be worth looking at his hooves anyway.

One of mine presented as laminitis x rays showed he had thin soles

 

[ycbm]

I agree they don't always show much before rotation but the lameness has been grumbling on now so might be worth looking at his hooves anyway.

One of mine presented as laminitis x rays showed he had thin soles

Oh don't get me wrong my vet would have wanted to have x rayed Bert by now.
.

 

[criso]

Oh don't get me wrong my vet would have wanted to have x rayed Bert by now.
.

Mine would have nerve blocked.

I had not dissimilar Dec 2022 which turned out to be a tiny bruise which eventually was an abscess. Several weeks of looking lame then sound as soon as the vet drove up the drive. My regular vet lives not far from the yard and said call me immediately and I'll come straight away and we'll nerve block. When we finally managed to get vet on site and horse limping at the same time, he reacted to hoof testers which he hadn't before and a tiny hole released pus and fixed everything so we didn't have to block. .

We did actually X ray as it had gone on so long wanted to check there were no issues with the pedal bone but not the first thing. .

 

[SEL]

Rumbling low grade lameness in one of mine turned out to be damage to the navicular bone. She wasn't insured so I didn't MRI but I suspect there was a soft tissue injury somewhere in that foreleg.

I'd actually assumed low grade laminitis because she's a fatty but balance was spot on with x rays, pedal bone fine just the surface of that navicular bone not fine.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Rumbling low grade bilateral front feet lameness and raised pulses in mine proved to be early changes in both front coffin joints due to poor foot balance. Injected with Arthramid in 2019 and not a bother or pulses since.

ETA problem found by nerve blocks and x rays.

 

[Icedance]

Rumbling low grade bilateral front feet lameness and raised pulses in mine proved to be early changes in both front coffin joints due to poor foot balance. Injected with Arthramid in 2019 and not a bother or pulses since.

ETA problem found by nerve blocks and x rays.

I don’t disagree with this, if mine is due his arthritis cartrophen for hocks, I find him slightly pulsy behind and it goes once he’s jabbed

 

[TheMule]

I'm baffled as to why a vet who has seen a pony multiple times for a lameness that isn't resolving isn't recommending further investigation?! Nerve blocks to prove it's in the foot and then x-rays as a minimum.

 

[Spotherisk]

Keratex hoof hardener has more than just formaldehyde in it.

Ingredients: Aluminum chloride hexahydrate, Glycerine (glycerol), Formaldehyde, Ethyl alcohol, Methyl alcohol, Methyl salicylate, Water. Directions for Use: Apply to lower half of the hoof and sole, avoiding the coronary band and frog. Use daily for one week then twice weekly for general hoof maintenance.

OH, who is a chemist, raised his eyebrows and commented ‘I hope that you wear gloves when you apply that stuff’.

Keratex Hoof Hardener Product Description and Information Page

For cracked hooves, splitting hooves, tender soles and managing moisture.

keratex.net

I flicked it in my eye once when applying it. Straight to the trough and dunked my head in.

 

[meleeka]

OP - I’d just take a breath while you are waiting for farrier and saddler and see how he is after that before making any firm decisions.

An hour and a half should be plenty of time if he’s on full livery. That’s enough time to ride and enjoy him. It’s all the rest of it that you haven’t got time for. You don’t get know if that’s going to be ongoing, or if it’s just part of the settling in to his new life or adjusting to the weather.

 

[Upthecreek]

I'm baffled as to why a vet who has seen a pony multiple times for a lameness that isn't resolving isn't recommending further investigation?! Nerve blocks to prove it's in the foot and then x-rays as a minimum.

Me too. Also baffled at the vet’s suggestion to lunge a lame pony.

 

[criso]

I would also be a little selfish about expectations of what the yard can do even if they moan.They have 3 options: they include these services as part of the package; it's not included and owners have to be there, or it's an extra with a defined charge.


I'm on really cheap livery, cover works out at £8 a day I try to be around but I have no qualms about asking the yard to step in if needed. Currently I'm away and I'm on mud fever alert so poor ym is having to put on turnout chaps and stable wraps so I'm high maintenance for a couple of weeks. Someone has booked a sheath cleaning lady on a Saturday and yard manager offered to hold if I can't get up in time. However in the summer overnight I won't need muzzles, fly rugs or masks so we'll be more low maintenance.

Look after yourself not them.

 

[I'm Dun]

This pony was blood tested for ems a while back though wasn't he and was ok?

I would just get him shod for now as the vet has advised.

As someone else has mentioned the wet weather has played havoc with hooves this year, some just don't cope and get bruised so in that instance shoes are the answer if you don't want to boot up

But I suppose an x ray wouldn't hurt to rule out laminitis.

I had to have one PTS due to lammi as his pedal bones were coming through his sole. He didnt have EMS on blood tests either.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I had to have one PTS due to lammi as his pedal bones were coming through his sole. He didnt have EMS on blood tests either.

Which is why I added on the end about an x ray.

Sorry you lost one to laminitis its horrible I've lost 2 so I'm on high alert for it as I never want to go through it again.

 

[Birker2020]

I was told

Rumbling low grade lameness in one of mine turned out to be damage to the navicular bone. She wasn't insured so I didn't MRI but I suspect there was a soft tissue injury somewhere in that foreleg.

I'd actually assumed low grade laminitis because she's a fatty but balance was spot on with x rays, pedal bone fine just the surface of that navicular bone not fine.

This was more or less the same for Bailey too. A spur on the back of the navicular bone intermittently catching the DDFT. Nothing to be done in the end.
She'd never had laminitis but had had a lot of coffin joint inflammation which was treated with steroid on previous occasions.
My friends horse who I held when pts had laminitis due to steroids (way past the safe to graze period) and had to be pts as he wasn't responding.

 

[SO1]

You see I have always rated Keratex but there's a lot of people on the forum that say its bad because it contains formaldhyde.

I have started using Keretex for the last three weeks.

 

[paddy555]

Keratex hoof hardener has more than just formaldehyde in it.

Ingredients: Aluminum chloride hexahydrate, Glycerine (glycerol), Formaldehyde, Ethyl alcohol, Methyl alcohol, Methyl salicylate, Water. Directions for Use: Apply to lower half of the hoof and sole, avoiding the coronary band and frog. Use daily for one week then twice weekly for general hoof maintenance.

OH, who is a chemist, raised his eyebrows and commented ‘I hope that you wear gloves when you apply that stuff’.

Keratex Hoof Hardener Product Description and Information Page

For cracked hooves, splitting hooves, tender soles and managing moisture.

keratex.net

If I needed to wear gloves I wouldn't consider putting it on my horse.

 

[ycbm]

If I needed to wear gloves I wouldn't consider putting it on my horse.

It's only going on places that are already dead.

Keratex has been being used by people without any issues for over 30 years.
.

 

[Patterdale]

I'm baffled as to why a vet who has seen a pony multiple times for a lameness that isn't resolving isn't recommending further investigation?! Nerve blocks to prove it's in the foot and then x-rays as a minimum.

Because the vet, using common sense and clinical judgment (rather than a heavy reliance on expensive and invasive diagnostic equipment) has already made a diagnosis and recommended treatment.

If most of mine and most of the horses I know, weren’t shod in all this wet, I can point to exactly which ones would be unsound and it wouldn’t be a minority.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with vets treating the most simple and likely cause first, before moving on. The pony should really have been shod by now, as advised.

Because let’s not forget, the vet has actually SEEN the pony, which is more than any of you have, who are throwing all sorts of scary possible diagnoses at the owner.

 

[TheMule]

Because the vet, using common sense and clinical judgment (rather than a heavy reliance on expensive and invasive diagnostic equipment) has already made a diagnosis and recommended treatment.

If most of mine and most of the horses I know, weren’t shod in all this wet, I can point to exactly which ones would be unsound and it wouldn’t be a minority.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with vets treating the most simple and likely cause first, before moving on.
The pony should really have been shod by now.

But the pony has been lame since October. And nerve blocks/ x-rays are not expensive or invasive, they’re a vital tool in pinpointing problems. The vet has no idea if this lameness is actually coming from the foot.

I have 5 horses all living out unshod and have done for years…. I’ve never had one lame due to the wet. The hoof must be seriously compromised, especially if the pony has never worn shoes so you can’t even blame shoe-related compromise. I'd want x-rays.

 

[gallopingby]

It’s tough for SO1 but also for the vet who appears to have been contacted many times, offered advice - which unfortunately hasn’t been able to be followed and so another problem arises. Also as presumably there is insurance in place the costs must be stacking up. I would be more than a little exasperated if l was the vet although professionally discrete.

I would be seriously considering moving to a yard more able to work with native ponies. Hopefully once the farrier and saddle fitter turn up things will improve. However l would also be concerned about the need / suggestion to sedate for so many things.

 

[ycbm]

Because the vet, using common sense and clinical judgment (rather than a heavy reliance on expensive and invasive diagnostic equipment) has already made a diagnosis and recommended treatment.

If most of mine and most of the horses I know, weren’t shod in all this wet, I can point to exactly which ones would be unsound and it wouldn’t be a minority.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with vets treating the most simple and likely cause first, before moving on. The pony should really have been shod by now, as advised.

Because let’s not forget, the vet has actually SEEN the pony, which is more than any of you have, who are throwing all sorts of scary possible diagnoses at the owner.

I would agree with you, if we weren't, quite unbelievably, still in the situation where most vets think working horses should be wearing shoes. And if their first port of call for weak feet wasn't to shoe them instead of trying to sort out why they are weak.

It just isn't normal for a barefoot horse stood in a dry stable for 16 hours a day to have weak feet as a result of wet weather.

And there are ways of waterproofing feet against the wet which can avoid the need to nail a steel scaffold to them to stop them bending.
.

 

[meleeka]

But the pony has been lame since October. And nerve blocks/ x-rays are not expensive or invasive, they’re a vital tool in pinpointing problems. The vet has no idea if this lameness is actually coming from the foot.

Because let’s not forget, the vet has actually SEEN the pony, which is more than any of you have, who are throwing all sorts of scary possible diagnoses at the owner.

Apologies all my quotes have gone wrong, but I don’t think the pony has been lame since October. He’s been lame a couple of times. OP hasn’t said if it’s the same lameness or not. As far as I remember, he was very lame, then episodes of less lameness but ok in between.

I agree with the point made that the vet is the one looking at the pony. OP presumably trusts her vet, so I don’t think it’s helpful for people to imply that her vet is incompetent. The YO sounds like they are knowledgeable so I think they are better placed to advise if they think further tests are worth doing before the farrier and saddler. It’s not OP’s fault that it’s taking longer to move forward than they’d want due to professionals availability and is probably adding to her stress levels.

 

[SO1]

But the pony has been lame since October. And nerve blocks/ x-rays are not expensive or invasive, they’re a vital tool in pinpointing problems. The vet has no idea if this lameness is actually coming from the foot.

I have 5 horses all living out unshod and have done for years…. I’ve never had one lame due to the wet. The hoof must be seriously compromised, especially if the pony has never worn shoes so you can’t even blame shoe-related compromise. I'd want x-rays.

His right hind problem that was in October is completely better and vet is pleased with that.

This front left new problem since 20 January got better with three weeks field rest. Was sound for 2 weeks then went lame again on Tues whilst my instructor was riding him. Vet saw videos said field rest again until he could be shod and he was not surprised he was lame again due to vet weather and was not going to come back out again until he had been shod. Needs to be sedated and needs coordination with vet, farrier and yard staff as I can't get time off work. That is happening on Wednesday. Farrier when he last saw him said to YO when he was last trimmed that his hooves were washed out and he would feel any stones very easily.

I was concerned it was laminitis as had taken his muzzle off as a new horse went into the field on the Wednesday so got the vet out as an emergency the Wednesday morning which was a week since new horse went in and daý after lameness reoccured.

I couldn't be there due to work. Vet said same problem. I wanted him on box rest until the farrier can come to get him off the grass due to his weight. Vet said he needs to be im field and moving and exercise. I said how can I give him exercise if he can't be ridden and he said lunge him 20-30 minutes after seeing him lunged said that was fine for him to do. He also recommended phyiso as he looked stiff in his neck. Phyiso will see him today. Again I can't be there for phyiso due to work so had to be arranged at a time to suit yard staff.

His muzzle is back on. I struggled with time to get muzzle to fit I was there every evening for 1.5 hours for 3 weeks to try with adjustments and buying different muzzles.

The lameness reoccurred after a bout of very wet weather and a few days after the new horse came into the field. Bert has become attached to new horse from day one following it around and it could be new bout of lameness is linked to new horse going into the group.

I am actually thinking of selling or loaning as the appointments have not been able to take place due to me having to rely on yard staff as the professionals can only come during working hours when I am unable to get time off. The saddler for example has not been able to provide a date when I have been able to get a day work or when my instructor can cover me.

I work full time and often cannot even talk to the professionals involved in his care because they are only available during normal working hours and my role at work involves a lot of meetings and zooms when I cannot take personal calls.

I have got to the point that I have realised that even being on full livery including exercise up to 4 times a week is not viable for me because of my work situation where it is so difficult to get time off and often not being able to communicate with vet, farrier, physio and saddler during working hours. I also not around so much at weekends as I used to be due to my parents.

When I had Homey I had the same job for most of that time and it was awful the last 6 months of his life when he needed the vet a lot but thankfully the worst of it with his colics and hospitalisation in the summer when I have very few meetings so getting time off at short notice was easier and before my parents health got bad.

 

[gallopingby]

But if you’re on full livery it should mean just that! You are paying for someone to look after your horse and you should be able to trust them to carry out whatever is required. Although not ideal some people have to put their horses on full livery because they have to work outside the UK for periods of time. From what you’ve said SO1 your livery charges are much higher than in some other areas further north or south. I’m sure people on here would be able to come up with a suitable yard that could take the day to day stress away from you for a while until things are sorted out. Somewhere where you could get to easily at weekends and have some fun. It’s something worth thinking about?